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Stellaris Dev Diary #26 - Migration, Slavery & Purges

Hi folks!

It has been a very busy week for yours truly, with a load of press demos and, of course, the grand Paradox press conference in San Francisco. Meanwhile, the rest of the team has been hard at work finishing up the revised start-up screens, but that’s not what I’m going to talk about today… Instead, through the confused haze of my jet lag, I thought I’d say a few words about how to manage your population in Stellaris! As you might recall from the dev diary on Policies and Edicts, your initial choice of Empire ethos will heavily affect what you can and cannot do and what your initial population will tend to frown upon. Three of the more interesting Policies concern Migration, Slavery and Purges.

stellaris_dev_diary_26_01_20160321_policies.jpg


Let’s begin with Migration. There are two ways in which Pops can move between planets; spontaneous migration or resettlement. If you are playing a Fanatic Individualist empire, you must allow at least your founding species Pops to move freely as they like (there is an option to disallow alien Pops from migrating - not popular with Xenophiles.) Pops who are allowed to migrate will tend to move to planets they like better than the one they currently live on. This is not just a matter of the Planet Class, but also things like whether the planet has Slaves (which Decadent Pops like), if there are alien Pops on the planet (which Xenophobes dislike and Xenophiles like), and whether the planet lies within a Sector or the core worlds (dissidents and aliens tend to move to Sectors to live with like-minded individuals.) If another Empire is granting you migration access, your Pops will also consider migrating to their planets.

Now, unless you are playing an Individualist Empire, you can also enact a Policy to allow the forcible resettlement of Pops. This will allow you to simply move Pops between planets; at a hefty cost, of course. There is one more way to control migration; fanatic Xenophobes can enact planetary Edicts to strongly discourage xeno immigration. In the same way, fanatic Xenophiles can strongly encourage it...

stellaris_dev_diary_26_02_20160321_resettlement.jpg


So that’s basically how migration works. Next, we have Slavery. Like the migration Policies, you have three options; allow it for all Pops, xenos only, or not at all. Fanatic Individualists cannot play with Slavery unless the founding species has the Decadent trait, and only Xenophobes can limit Slavery to aliens. Why use slaves? Well, reprehensible as it is, enslaved Pops are harder workers (but poorer scientists.) Of course, slaves can - and will - join Slave Factions, although Collectivist slaves are more accepting of their lot, for the Greater Good.

Finally, let’s talk Purges, which is simply a way of getting rid of troublesome Pops… permanently. Naturally, this is something that both your own population and other Empires tend to react to rather emphatically.

That’ll have to do for now. Next week, we’re aiming for a more cheerful dev diary about sound and music!
 
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The problem is that the fantatical versions of these does not come of all that diffrent from the normal ones, fanatical individualism should basically be rapture from bioshock or even worse becuase even there the people involved were humans who are naturally social beings. On the grand scheme of things even the US should only be individualist 1.
Collectivism also must be made possible to represent more systems, if both regular and radical collectivism means stalinism then why bother having two of them? And no the radical is not to represent hive minds, inherent traits are traits not ethoses. And even then there are hive minds that are "democratic" like the geth from mass effect who only act when there's a consensus of all individual geth programs. That's basically a direct democracy.
Disallowing even collectivism 1 from democratic government types, and not allowing individualist 2 to take plutocratic oligarchy. Is idealising liberalism in a way that even I a card carrying liberal find disturbing.
I am not familiar with Bioshock so I don't know what you are saying there.

People keep confusing Hive Mind and Collectivism. At this point in time it looks like there is no such thing as a Hive Mind in Stellaris. The Geth are also a poor choice to use as an example as they are AIs, currently not playable in Stellaris.

I agree that Collectivism prohibiting Democracy doesn't make sense, nor does Individualism prohibiting Autocracies. Fanatic Individualism might make sense to block Autocracies, but not Oligarchies.
 
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I see arguement about collectivism and what it means in stellaris.

First, let's take away our way of view, our culture and everything about us as a specie.
This is because humans are naturally an individualistic specie, we need to forget who we are first to understand what true collectivism in stellaris sense is-

Now let's take a look what an individual is in a collectivist society:
The answer is simple, there is no such thing as an individual in a collectivist society, the very idea goes against the idea of collectivism. There is no "Me" in a truelly collectivist society. There is only the collective, the society and needs of the society go before the needs of any member of the society.

I hope I summed it up well enough.
 
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I am not familiar with Bioshock so I don't know what you are saying there.

People keep confusing Hive Mind and Collectivism. At this point in time it looks like there is no such thing as a Hive Mind in Stellaris. The Geth are also a poor choice to use as an example as they are AIs, currently not playable in Stellaris.

I agree that Collectivism prohibiting Democracy doesn't make sense, nor does Individualism prohibiting Autocracies. Fanatic Individualism might make sense to block Autocracies, but not Oligarchies.
Yeah that was kind of my point there are no hive mind in the game so collectivism 2 is a political collectivism not an inherent one. The geth note meant that even if there are no hive minds (AI or otherwise) even those might not be autocratic.
As for Andrew Ryan in bioshock, he creates an underwater city called rapture where there are no laws whatsoever, every government function is actually run by companies. Well things don't go that well.
It's basically your avarage failed libertarianist/anarchy utopia/dystopia.
 
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I see arguement about collectivism and what it means in stellaris.

First, let's take away our way of view, our culture and everything about us as a specie.
This is because humans are naturally an individualistic specie, we need to forget who we are first to understand what true collectivism in stellaris sense is-

Now let's take a look what an individual is in a collectivist society:
The answer is simple, there is no such thing as an individual in a collectivist society, the very idea goes against the idea of collectivism. There is no "Me" in a truelly collectivist society. There is only the collective, the society and needs of the society go before the needs of any member of the society.

I hope I summed it up well enough.
I think you going a bit far. There is Collectivism and Fanatic Collectivism after all, and as far as we know there is no Hive Mind trait/feature in Stellaris.

A scifi example of a Collectivist society is the Tau from 40k. They are arranged into Castes (vertical, rather than horizontal differentiation, with one exception). Each individual (there are individuals) is raised in a group and assigned a role: be it Fire Warrior (soldier), Logistics, Support, R&D, Manufacturing, food production, etc. They all look out for the 'Greater Good' more than individuals. There aren't individual rights, there are only collective rights (ie the Fire Caste is responsible for defense and offensive ground operations, while the Air Caste is responsible for trade, transportation, and space combat). The society is most definitely a Fanatical Collectivist one, there are no slaves though (which is perfectly fine, just because Collectivism gets a Slave bonus doesn't mean you have to have slaves to fulfill the criteria), and they generally accept other species with, relatively, open arms.

Fanatic Collectivism doesn't mean Hive Mind.
 
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Yeah that was kind of my point there are no hive mind in the game so collectivism 2 is a political collectivism not an inherent one. The geth note meant that even if there are no hive minds (AI or otherwise) even those might not be autocratic.
As for Andrew Ryan in bioshock, he creates an underwater city called rapture where there are no laws whatsoever, every government function is actually run by companies. Well things don't go that well.
It's basically your avarage failed libertarianist/anarchy utopia/dystopia.
Interesting, I'll have to read up on it (only familiar with BioShock Infinite myself, which was pretty trippy lol).

And yes, I agree that there are such things as Collectivist Democracies (in theory, naturally) and I don't think Collectivism should lock out Democracies.
 

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I think you going a bit far. There is Collectivism and Fanatic Collectivism after all, and as far as we know there is no Hive Mind trait/feature in Stellaris.

A scifi example of a Collectivist society is the Tau from 40k. They are arranged into Castes (vertical, rather than horizontal differentiation, with one exception). Each individual (there are individuals) is raised in a group and assigned a role: be it Fire Warrior (soldier), Logistics, Support, R&D, Manufacturing, food production, etc. They all look out for the 'Greater Good' more than individuals. There aren't individual rights, there are only collective rights (ie the Fire Caste is responsible for defense and offensive ground operations, while the Air Caste is responsible for trade, transportation, and space combat). The society is most definitely a Fanatical Collectivist one, there are no slaves though (which is perfectly fine, just because Collectivism gets a Slave bonus doesn't mean you have to have slaves to fulfill the criteria), and they generally accept other species with, relatively, open arms.

Fanatic Collectivism doesn't mean Hive Mind.
Truelly Collectivistic would be a Hive, just without a single "mind" controlling it. Each person (or member) would be part of the "mind".
The idea of a hive mind is individualistic, because there is a SINGLE mind controlling all the other parts of the Hive.
 

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I see arguement about collectivism and what it means in stellaris.

First, let's take away our way of view, our culture and everything about us as a specie.
This is because humans are naturally an individualistic specie, we need to forget who we are first to understand what true collectivism in stellaris sense is-

Now let's take a look what an individual is in a collectivist society:
The answer is simple, there is no such thing as an individual in a collectivist society, the very idea goes against the idea of collectivism. There is no "Me" in a truelly collectivist society. There is only the collective, the society and needs of the society go before the needs of any member of the society.

I hope I summed it up well enough.
Are you kidding me? Individialist species? We're pack hunters, basically only a step away from hive beings such as ants and bees. Cats are way more individualist than we are and even them we've managed to rub of our social aspects on, but even ther natural counterparts have some social aspects, if we venture beyond mammals we find beings so utterly indivdualist that they have no sense of community and can ever see each other as food. Humanity is a naturally collectivist species


Truelly Collectivistic would be a Hive, just without a single "mind" controlling it. Each person (or member) would be part of the "mind".
The idea of a hive mind is individualistic, because there is a SINGLE mind controlling all the other parts of the Hive.
You just described a pack. Not a single entity but with a subconsious group mentally binding them together towards common goals. That's us!
 
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Are you kidding me? Individialuist species? We're pack hunters, basically onlya step away from hive beings such as ants and bees. Cats are way more individualist than we are and evne them we've managed to rub of our social aspects on, if we venture beyodn mammals we find beings so utterly indivdualist that they have no sense of community and can ever see each other as food. Humanity is a naturally collectivist species

You just described a pack. . Not a single entity but with a subconsious group mentally binding them together. That's us!
You misunderstand, I intended to imply that "pack" of humans still consist of individuals, taking care of their own needs first. True collectivism is the polar opposite. I also intended to imply that "Pure" and thus true collectivism is impossible for a naturally evolved specie because of survival instincts.
 
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I disagree, but your point makes sense
Likewise, on this and other points.
The problem is that the fantatical versions of these does not come of all that diffrent from the normal ones, fanatical individualism should basically be rapture from bioshock or even worse becuase even there the people involved were humans who are naturally social beings. On the grand scheme of things even the US should only be individualist 1.
Collectivism also must be made possible to represent more systems, if both regular and radical collectivism means stalinism then why bother having two of them? And no the radical is not to represent hive minds, inherent traits are traits not ethoses. And even then there are hive minds that are "democratic" like the geth from mass effect who only act when there's a consensus of all individual geth programs. That's basically a direct democracy.
Disallowing even collectivism 1 from democratic government types, and not allowing individualist 2 to take plutocratic oligarchy. Is idealising liberalism in a way that even I a card carrying liberal find disturbing.
I agree. This is why I think currently individualist/collectivism axis is too restrictive regarding governments.
Taking only one step in given direction ought not restrict democracies or autocracies.
And oligarchy should be allowed for both extremes, simply because all form of governments tend to degenerate toward oligarchies.
Fanatic Collectivism doesn't mean Hive Mind.
Agree. Game doesn't seem to support races biologically inclined to be of "sentient ants/bees" type.
 
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You misunderstand, I intended to imply that "pack" of humans still consist of individuals, taking care of their own needs first. True collectivism is the polar opposite. I also intended to imply that "Pure" and thus true collectivism is impossible for a naturally evolved specie because of survival instincts.
Do they? Then I must've imagined the thousands of humans dying for diffrent causes over the ten thousands years of our history. Or the wolf who gives his life for the pack.
And survival instinct does not conflicit with collectivism, even a collectivist mindset will want to preserve the components as much as possible because replacing them is unessecerry effort for the greater whole. There's onlt a conflict if they are putting their survival over the good of the collective entity and while humans can do that we are also very good at duing for what we believe in.
 
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Do they? Then I mustäve imagined thousands of humans dying for diffrent causes over thousands of years. Or the wolf who gives his life for the pack.
And? I see no collectivism here...
Let's put it this way. Until ALL humans are able to do what a small percentage is able to do, with the mind set and everything, we are not a collective race. Thousands of humans dying is pointless if it achieves nothing for ALL humans. Emphasis on ALL. That's the point, a wolf giving it's life for it's pack is not collectivism UNTIL it benefits ALL wovles, not just the pack.
 
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Is it possible to uplift a species with specific ethics? Could I, as a xenophobe, go around uplifting small furry creatures to be collectivist brutes with big fangs to work as my shock troopers? Is it possible to tinker with a specific pop's genome?
 
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I think you are confusing real world definitions with gameplay concepts.

Just because you can find a definition for 'Collectivism' that fits every government ever, doesn't mean that is what Collectivism means in Stellaris. It means whatever PDS wants it to mean. Individualist governments are, according to their descriptions, governments that support individual rights and freedoms, while Collectivist Governments are, again according to ingame descriptions, governments that support the idea of unity, collective good over individual good, etc.

All of you who are having trouble with the whole Collectivism/Egalitarian/Hierarchical stuff would be much happier if you accept that this is Paradox's game, their definitions, and not the real world (or even a fake real world). Real world definitions do not apply.

"Society has long since evolved past the insignificant rivalries and concerns of the individuals. We are numerous but one, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. We stand truly equal."

"The purpose of the individual is simple: strengthen the collective. To enter the blackness of space we move as one, and we shall not be weakened by wanton separatism."

First of all, if definitions are fake, names could be as well. It is obvious players will be confused if only names are real. Second, definitions hardly support the traits, quite the opposite actually.

There's a suggestion thread around here somewhere that if they changed the terms to Hierarchical versus Egalitarian instead of Collectivism verus Individualism then it would pretty much solve the issue with only some minimal tweaking. A fanatically hierarchical society having a large class of the population in subservience or bondage works fine, as does the idea of locking out democracies such that only those towards the top of the hierarchy are involved in decision making. Equally, egalitarian societies would of course be appalled at the idea of slavery and be more likely to rebel if enslaved and it makes sense that autocratic governments don't get employed because decision arent made collectively.

Yeah, it would work as well. Could simulate feudalism nicely.
 
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And? I see no collectivism here...
Let's put it this way. Until ALL humans are able to do what a small percentage is able to do, with the mind set and everything, we are not a collective race. Thousands of humans dying is pointless if it achieves nothing for ALL humans. Emphasis on ALL. That's the point, a wolf giving it's life for it's pack is not collectivism UNTIL it benefits ALL wovles, not just the pack.
So there must only be one collective for you to recognize collectivism? Then why only all mebers of a species, why not all life? Of the unvierse itself? You do realise you are being aribtrary right?
In fact what is a species? When does evolution recognize that one beign is one species and one is not? Fact is evolution doesn't do that. We humans have drawn up relativly aribitrary destinctions between diffrent species.
 
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So there must only be one collective for you to recognize collectivism? Then why only all mebers of a species, why not all life? Of the unvierse itself? You do realise you are being aribtrary right?
In fact what is a species? When does evolution recognize that one beign is one species and one is not? Fact is evolution doesn't do that.
That's why I said it is impossible for a naturally evolved specie.
 
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The Real Difference between HOI and Stellaris:
HOI: "Absolutely nothing related to certain unsavory events that occured in this timeline is allowed, and neither are "special" weapons"
Stellaris: "So if you want to exterminate the alien population you click this button, but if you want to enslave them instead you click this one. Or if you don't want to deal with any of this, just select the heavy orbital bombardment option"
 
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Have to disagree with this.

I think you guys are looking at this from a very Western, 21st century perspective. The idea that a group is superior to, and has more important and pressing needs than, a individual is a very common philosophy throughout human history.

Collectivism in this sense, the very broad ideological alignment that Stellaris uses, includes not only the idea that individuals are subservient to the state, but also to their family, their community, their religion, etc.


The conflict of Collectivism vs. Individualism (as I see it) then goes something like this:

-Collectivist societies believe that individuals exist primarily to serve groups (community, family, country, religion, race), and that individuals are primarily defined by the groups that they belong in.

-Individualist societies believe that groups exist primarily to serve individuals (country defending citizens, family raising children), and that groups are ultimately collections of individuals that could theoretically be disolved (a country is made up of private citizens, a family can be split apart).

One example of a historical collective society would be a traditional, rural Jewish community: individuals are defined by being members of their faith, their village, and their family; marriages are arranged, not only by the families involved but also by the village matchmaker; children are considered extensions of their parents until adulthood, and even then they are expected to stay in the village they were born in (or possibly move to a neighboring one, usually via an arranged marriage); interactions with people outside the faith are limited, and marrying outside the faith or otherwise leaving it means exile from the community (and family).

Many non-Western societies could be considered collectivist: traditional Indian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, African, and Native American societies would all fit to some extent.

Fanatic collectivism would be something different: that would be something more like a daydream of Mao, Stalin or Pol Pot, in which people ONLY exist to serve the needs of the collective, and have little to no value as individuals. This would be much rarer in human history, but arguably not unheard of. (It's "arguably" just because it's hard to find a society that follows this across all levels; slaves and other very low social classes would fit, but to have a nation of nothing but slaves would be contradictory to human ideas of hierarchy; it could theoretically happen to some extent in a very religious society, however, in which everyone is a "slave to God;" in any case the top of the hierarchy would have to be an entity at least somewhat outside of society/physical existence: a diety, an idea, a semi-divine (and therefore, semi-human) ruler, etc. For a non-human example, an alien hivemind structured as an ant/bee colony would be led by its queen, an entity which is part living thing and part living symbol of its nation; it is the state, and the entirety of the population exists to serve that state.)

This has gotten very long but for one last quick example, an individualistic society: the United States, spefically of the 21st century. The government exists to protect the rights and lives of its citizens (the fact that "rights" is anywhere near "lives" in importance is a hallmark of an individualistic society), children are expected to move out upon reaching adulthood (which is decided by numerical age, not marriage or a ceremonial coming of age), individuals generally have few duties to their communities outside of paying taxes and providing for their children (who are often completely optional to have), individuals may practice a variety of religions or none at all, and are allowed (and encouraged) to criticize the government. Freedom is idealized, few people vote, and individual wealth is the cultural goal.

Hope that clears thing up a bit. Also as an aside, I don't think anything is wrong with using the term "collectivism" in this setting, as it does describe the idea quite nicely.
Thank you so much for this.
I was trying to figure out how to tackle a response of this type and couldn't muster the will.
Nicely done.
 
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That's why I said it is impossible for a naturally evolved specie.
Not collectivism just your extreemly arbitraty and narrow definition of it.
 
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