Stellaris Dev Diary #221 - Balance and Quality of Life Improvements

Hey folks, I’m @Alfray Stryke, a member of the QA team for Stellaris. As part of the Custodians’ work on the 3.1 “Lem” patch, as mentioned in Dev Diary #215, the team has done a balance and Quality of Life pass on various features throughout the game and we’d like to highlight some of the more harder hitting changes. This is not a complete list of all changes, and may contain some not-final numbers. As a reminder, the changes to the Necroids Species Pack were covered in Dev Diary #216, and all of these changes will also be included in the Lem update.

Void Dwellers

We’ve been aware that the implementation of Void Dwellers of having two separate traits, one positive and one negative resulted in behaviour that we weren’t happy with - in particular being able to gene-mod the negative aspects of the trait out of existence. To solve this we’ve made some changes to how the traits work:

  • There is now only a single Void Dweller trait, so it can’t be exploited via genetic modification of your species.
  • The modifiers on the trait itself have changed, previously it gave:
    • +15% Resources from Worker and Specialist jobs & -10% growth speed (for the positive version)
    • -60% growth speed (for the negative version)
  • The new version of the trait is now:
    • +15% Pop Resource Output on Habitats.
    • -15% Pop Resource Output on Non-Artificial Worlds.
    • -10% Growth Speed
    • -30% Happiness on Non-Artificial Worlds.

Void Dweller.png

The new, improved, Void Dweller trait with its modifiers.

What this means is your Void Dwellers pops are most productive and happiest on habitats, have their bonuses removed on ringworlds and have production and happiness penalties if they settle on planets (best to leave those for immigrants or robots!)

Shattered Ring

So before you grab your plasma-pitchforks (yes, plasma-pitchforks are canon now), rebalancing the Shattered Ring origin is something the team has been discussing for a while. We’ve gone through various iterations on decreasing the initial power of the origin, while keeping the player fantasy that it provides in mind and eventually settled on having the progression of the Shattered Ring resemble that of the Remnants origin.

Shattered Ring.png

The Voor Technocracy, showing off the Shattered Ringworld Segment as a homeworld.

The shattered ring itself supports the following district types:
  • City, Hive & Nexus - housing depending on your empire type.
  • Industrial - where valuable consumer goods and alloys can be manufactured.
  • Trade - where clerks turn a tidy profit and artisans run their workshops.
  • Generator (not pictured) - where hive-minds and machine intelligence power their infrastructure. Note that Generator and Trade districts swap depending on the owner of the Shattered Ring, much like Commercial and Generator Segments on a ringworld.
  • Agricultural - where food is grown for those that eat it.
  • Mining - more on that in a moment...

Once all the rubble has been cleared out, there’s space for 25 of these districts.

So you might be wondering, “Are those mining districts on my ringworld? What am I mining?”

Well dear reader, the answer is the ring itself!

Mining District.png

Mining districts, aka tunnels filled with valuable minerals and alloys.

As a civilization that has only known life on the ring prior to achieving spaceflight, the only resources available to you were those that made up the ringworld itself. Luckily ruined ringworlds are massive and can spare some missing broken materials without falling into their local sun.

As such your mining district on the shattered ring replaces the regular miner jobs with scrap miner jobs with a base job output of 2 minerals and 1 alloy per month.

Of course, as was alluded to above, we wanted the progression for the shattered ring to resemble that of the relic world from the Remnants origin. So once you’ve cleared all the debris from the shattered ring and researched the appropriate technology you can repair it into a fully functioning ringworld segment.

Repair Shattered Ring.png

Of course, sometimes a bit of home repair work needs to be done.

Upon completion of this monumental task, the districts on the shattered ring are upgraded into their respective ringworld districts at a 5:1 ratio - so 5 agricultural districts become 1 agricultural segment. Since fixing up the ring means you’ll no longer be clearing out material, the mining districts are removed and the ability to construct research segments is added.

Ecumenopolis QoL Changes

Something we’ve received a lot of feedback on is that when a world is transformed into an Ecumenopolis is the assignment of industrial districts.

Prior to 3.1, all of the industrial districts were assumed to be devoted to alloy production and thus converted into foundry arcologies. No more, in 3.1 industrial districts will convert based off of the planetary designation:

  • With the “Foundry World” designation, industrial districts will convert into foundry arcologies, at a 2:1 ratio
  • With the “Factory World” designation, industrial districts will convert into factory arcologies, at a 2:1 ratio.
  • With any other designation, including the “Industrial World” designation, industrial districts will convert into both foundry and factory arcologies, at a 4:1:1 ratio.

Relic World.png

Earth, a bygone relic of a time long past, ready to be restored anew.

Ecumenopolis.png

Earth, restored anew! Note that the local governing algorithm did not assume all industrial capabilities should be focused on supporting the Custodianship Navy.

Another change we’ve implemented is the Arcology Project ascension perk and decision to restore relic worlds into ecumenopolises is now accessible to Rogue Servitors. In addition, the leisure arcologies that would normally be present have been repurposed for housing bio-trophies in luxurious towering arcologies.

Sanctuary Arcology.png

Pampering will be provided at Floor 314, Room 15 at 9:26 am.


Assorted QoL Changes

As mentioned above, the planetary designation for consumer goods has been renamed to Factory World, because we’ve added an Industrial World designation.

Industrial Designations.png

Multiple planetary designations for your various needs

The new Industrial World designation is ideal for planets where you don’t want to focus the Industrial districts on a single job type, instead providing a minor upkeep discount to both Artisan and Metallurgist jobs.

Industrial World.png

Industrial World Designation

Both Hive Worlds and Machine Worlds have gained an additional bonus to bring them more in line with Gaia Worlds. Hive Worlds now have +1 innate Spawning Drone job and Machine Worlds now have +1 innate Replicator job. The Machine World given by the Resource Consolidation origin starts with a blocker which will need to be cleared to unlock the Replicator job.

Hive World.png
Machine World.png


Subversive Cults (MegaCorps with both Gospel of the Masses and Criminal Syndicate) no longer have access to the Temple of Prosperity. Instead, they can now establish a Subversive Shrine in their branch offices - increasing both Spiritualist ethics attraction and crime on the planet.

Subversive Shrine.png

Subversive Shrine Tooltip.png

Subvert expectations with deals so good they’re criminal!

With that I’ll pass things over to @Gruntsatwork to discuss some of the changes we’ve made to civics!

----

Hello everyone. I am one of Game Designers currently working on Stellaris and on the Custodian Team. While we have been busy with radical changes here and there, new civics and origins, we also wanted to have some more tame but no less important balance changes for our already existing civics, specifically for our outliers and those we felt under- or especially over-utilized.

The following lists all the civics we felt needed a substantial lift up
Regular Empires
  • Beacon of Liberty: Gave +15% produced Unity -> Now ALSO also gives -15% Empire Sprawl from Pops
  • Imperial Cult: Gave +1 Edict cap -> Now gives +2 Edict cap
  • Idealistic Foundation: Gave +5% Happiness -> Now gives +10% Happiness
  • Environmentalist: Gave -10% Consumer Goods Upkeep -> Now gives -20% Consumer Goods Upkeep
  • Parliamentary System: Gave +25% Faction Influence -> Now gives +40% Faction Influence
  • Efficient Bureaucracy: Gave +10% Admin Cap -> Now gives +20% Admin Cap
  • Nationalistic Zeal: Gave -10% War Exhaustion Gain and -10% Claim Cost -> Now gives -20% War Exhaustion Gain and -15% Claim Cost
  • Functional Architecture: Gave -10% Building and District Cost, -10% Building and District Upkeep and +1 Building Slot -> Now gives -15% Building and District Cost, +2 Building Slots, Upkeep reduction removed
Hive-Minds
  • Subspace Ephase: Gave +15% Naval Capacity -> Now gives +20% Ship Speed and ALSO gives +15% Naval Capacity
  • Divided Attention: Gave +10% Admin Cap -> Now gives +20% Admin Cap
Machine Intelligences
  • Constructobot: Gave -10% Building and District Cost, -10% Building and District Upkeep and +1 Building Slot -> Now gives -15% Building and District Cost, +2 Building Slots, Upkeep reduction removed
We hope those changes, while strictly number tweaks, will give those civics a breath of fresh air and increase their appeal to the wider player-base because, “oh, shiny new numbers” is one hell of a drug.

Now sadly, only strengthening the civics we felt undervalued or under-used doesn’t solve all issues, so we also introduced some slight nerfs to the 2(3) biggest offenders in terms of being “must have” civics.
  • Slaver Guilds : Reduced enslaved population from 40% to 35%
  • Indentured Assets: Reduced enslaved population from 40% to 35% (Megacorp civic)
  • Technocracy: Added 1 Consumer Goods upkeep to Scientist Jobs that create unity because of Technocracy

As you can tell, for the slaver guild civics, this change is relatively minor, compared to the Technocracy nerf. The goal here is to make those 3 civics slightly less good. We have no intention of nerfing them into the ground. Our goal here is to move them from “the best pick, every time” to “could be best pick, depending on circumstances”.

We will be following your feedback here and over all other platforms very closely as well as our own telemetry and we will keep adjusting and tweaking the civics as we go on.

As an extra note, we know that there are several other civics that definitely need a pick me up, we will be looking into them as well, but not for the Lem update.

That’s everything from us this week! Thanks for reading and we’ll be back next week diving into more changes in the Lem Update.
 
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Personally, my form of balance, and Stefan's are nowhere near the same. I have played with that mod, I find that it knee caps the origin too much.
Fair enough. We all have our own preferences, but I think the mod did it better than what we have in the current version of stellaris.
I agree, the Arcane generator could be removed. Making one wait 5-40 years into the game to get the research segments is a good thing. In my own games, I don't build the segments until I have the resources for them (Including strategic), because my people would have no way of knowing what the arcane generator generates.
Only one problem with research districts, anything in a district is still over powered compared to a building version, hence why void dwellers is also OP.

Does it make sense? No. But neither does FTL, so that just comes to a difference of how far suspension of disbelief should go.
What is the utility? Well, Relic and Ecumenopolis don't make food. A single Ringworld segment with Agri districts can feed a massive chunk of the galaxy. If you are a megacorp, or just focusing on trade value for whatever reason, A ringworld is unparalleled.
As for hives, if you can't/ don't want to build a dyson sphere, the generator segment would be the largest source of energy in the game. Machine world generators give 3 housing and 2 jobs. Ringworld gives +10 housing, +10 tech drone.
Regarding the districts, I have a completely different viewpoint. The ringworld districts are large and a lot of them, that's it. Nothing more.
They only give an advantage with the origin, because every origin starts with 7-8 pops in low value jobs, and a ringworld allows to put them in research jobs by the 2nd year, in comparison to most other origins which would take 8 years. Origins with all building slots open, like resource consolidation, would only take 4 years. Once all pops are in the preferred jobs, then there's no advantage of the ringworld districts anymore. I can easily build a housing district and a research lab in the time it takes to grow the next pop. It appears easier in the origin because nobody accounts for the arcane generator and the extra 20 minerals (5 miners pops equivalent) from deposits that the origin gets.

Besides the origin, a ringworld offers zero benefit over another planet on which your species gets 100% habitability.
Let me put it this way, if you colonize a ringworld and a size 20 planet (with 100% habitability) at the same time, then over the next few decades, your pops on both planets would grow the same, and your pops will produce the same. Except the ringworld districts will have a higher upkeep due to rare resources.

Just because I can build a ringworld district with 10 jobs doesn't mean that there'll be pops growing faster to fill it.
You know that they included pop growth settings in the game set up, right? When set correctly, they essentially give you Pre 3.0 growth.
I'm aware of it. But as you know, doing that will bring my game to a crawl 2 centuries in, so I have to stick to default settings.
Again, they added those settings in the set up and you can tweak them to remove the abritary Empire pop thing (Personally, I would it on a planetary scale, and the total empire thing sucks, but with the scaler in, I'm happy).


Alright...
1) This a paradox game, meaning that 90% of the story is player headcannon. Same with CKIII.
In one sense, yes. But Origins have been for story telling, as you allude in your next point. On the shoulder of giants is just literally that, a story being told. And lot of game choices are based on story telling rather than game balance. Voidborne / Habitats can't unlock all building slots unless you specifically take the civics and all traditions and AP for it. Because the devs want habitats to feel cramped. That's storytelling not balance. Regular empires can sell minor artifacts to private collectors for 500 energy a piece, but gestalts cannot, because gestalts don't have the concept of collecting artifacts as hobby etc.
2) When they first came out with the origins, they even said that they were storytelling devices, and were not supposed to be balanced.
Agree. And can be seen today in so many origins.
3) This is a faux story? If you have been on a ringworld long enough to evolve a ringworld preference, and the ringworld has been without maintenance for several million years. You think it will still be in good shape?
I don't mind it being in bad shape, or even shattered. Just why is everything usable except the research parts?
4) Research districts are OP. This is a fact. Adding Research Districts to a shattered ring would essentially make this a stronger void dweller start. Becoming weaker than VD by mid-game
On their own, they are not. They only allow a faster transition to research jobs at game start, compared to other origins. That gives an advantage, but to state that the research district is OP implies that the district is OP at all points of time in the game. Once all your pops are doing their intended job and you have 2 years to build before your next pop grows, then research district only saves some minerals and time compared to research lab. And as I've mentioned before, an origin with all slots open will be at par with research districts (I don't mean the 10 job research segment).
Regarding the proposed origin, one option could be to have blockers from, say, 6th district onwards, requiring gases. It would still be faster than most origins, but if a civilization finds itself on a shattered remains of planet with massive dedicated areas towards research, then it is a part of the story that they can tech faster. It's no different from a ME Doomsday getting +30% to alloy, mineral and energy output in the beginning, and effectively +100% output from year 30 onwards.
 
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The new Industrial World designation is ideal for planets where you don’t want to focus the Industrial districts on a single job type, instead providing a minor upkeep discount to both Artisan and Metallurgist jobs.

View attachment 750645
Industrial World Designation

Ah so it's a new trap option to punish people for using automatic colony designations, like Refinery World, Fortress World, and Rural World* (after the galactic community passes Five Year Plans).

Once you have two industrial district focused worlds, making one a Forge World and one a Factory World will give you double the upkeep reduction per pop that having two Industrial Worlds will. Either Industrial Worlds should give the same -20% upkeep to both artisans and metallurgists so that the only difference between the three designations is what selection of jobs industrial districts provide, or the designation should have a weight modifier of 0 in coloney_types so that it's never automatically chosen.
 
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I never said that stellaris is balanced well yet. This also isn't stopping me from saying that it probably should be. It is also why I used the word "should" in my initial statement.
I didn't imply that you said it is balanced. I asked whether it has been your experience so far that the game is balanced. Because I am surprised it is your expectation or wish that Stellaris "should" be balanced/fair the same as the card game you described. Because anybody who's played the game for a decent amount of time recognizes that it is not intended to be "balanced" or "fair" for a multiplayer experience. It is designed primarily for single player experience, not competitive multiplayer.
Do you not realize that Doomsday, Lost Colony, On the shoulder of giants, etc are different origins for different stories a player can create. Some of them have scripted event chains. They are created primarily for the story and not for balancing against other origins. If the game really intended for all origins to be equally fair, then we'd have maybe two or three origins in all.
If you follow the dev diaries, cohesive story telling/lore has often trumped balance. To give you an example, Void dwellers were hardest hit with the pop and building slot changes. Yet the devs said that living in habitats should feel cramped and so they can only get building slots from civics or traditions. You see, what was balanced wasn't even the consideration. The lore, habitats should feel cramped, determined the design. And you'll find this ubiquitously in the game.


The other person never said anything about that my assumption that stellaris should be balanced is wrong in their reply to my text. They said it is currently not balanced. But it is implied by their post I replied to, to begin with that they don't think it should be balanced.

Also I never even said anything about symmetric vs asymetric balance. Actually I am much bigger fan of asymmetric balance and know it is harder.

I also never said I agree with the way the origin was balanced. My post you replied to was just to say that I think that balancing origins is somewhat important.
 
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Kiwibaum

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I didn't imply that you said it is balanced. I asked whether it has been your experience so far that the game is balanced. Because I am surprised it is your expectation or wish that Stellaris "should" be balanced/fair the same as the card game you described. Because anybody who's played the game for a decent amount of time recognizes that it is not intended to be "balanced" or "fair" for a multiplayer experience. It is designed primarily for single player experience, not competitive multiplayer.
Do you not realize that Doomsday, Lost Colony, On the shoulder of giants, etc are different origins for different stories a player can create. Some of them have scripted event chains. They are created primarily for the story and not for balancing against other origins. If the game really intended for all origins to be equally fair, then we'd have maybe two or three origins in all.
If you follow the dev diaries, cohesive story telling/lore has often trumped balance. To give you an example, Void dwellers were hardest hit with the pop and building slot changes. Yet the devs said that living in habitats should feel cramped and so they can only get building slots from civics or traditions. You see, what was balanced wasn't even the consideration. The lore, habitats should feel cramped, determined the design. And you'll find this ubiquitously in the game.
I get what you mean, and no I don't think it's balanced atm. Even tho it's a long road with a goal that we might never reach I still think balance is something that should be strived for.

From what I read in your first post I got the impression you're saying that one shouldn't try to balance the game and just stick to story 100% of the time, correct me here if I am wrong on that. I think it shoud be compromise, but yeah story should be a big part of that too.


And for what? Balance? The origins have never been about balance, but different stories that can be told. Some are very powerful. Some are very difficult. So what if with 2 job research districts, a ringworld origin will be able to tech faster than other origins. At least the story would be consistent! This is not Dota or starcraft that has to be balanced for multiplayer. In Stellaris, a consistent storytelling has trumped "balance" everywhere you look.

I think I got that impression mostly from that part, "This is not Dota or starcraft that has to be balanced for multiplayer.", to be exact.

I just disagree with that statement. I think it should be balanced for multiplayer, since there's a decently sized amount of people that play the game that way. Additionally balance also adds to singleplayer. I know some people that always play the same cuase those things are better. They feel limited by the balance.
 
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Regarding the districts, I have a completely different viewpoint. The ringworld districts are large and a lot of them, that's it. Nothing more.
They only give an advantage with the origin, because every origin starts with 7-8 pops in low value jobs, and a ringworld allows to put them in research jobs by the 2nd year, in comparison to most other origins which would take 8 years. Origins with all building slots open, like resource consolidation, would only take 4 years. Once all pops are in the preferred jobs, then there's no advantage of the ringworld districts anymore.
Except that districts are superior to buildings. Less upkeep, and they provide housing, so less messing around with city districts. That is what makes habitat, Ringworlds, Hive worlds, Ecumenopoli and Machine worlds so powerful.
Besides the origin, a ringworld offers zero benefit over another planet on which your species gets 100% habitability.
Let me put it this way, if you colonize a ringworld and a size 20 planet (with 100% habitability) at the same time, then over the next few decades, your pops on both planets would grow the same, and your pops will produce the same. Except the ringworld districts will have a higher upkeep due to rare resources.
Ringworld segments have less upkeep. A ringworld research districts needs only 5 energy and two exotic gasses in upkeep to provide ten jobs.
At a minimum, you need two building slots; a T3 and a T2 research building to provide ten jobs. Together they require a total of 13 energy and three exotic gasses in upkeep. Let's you just use five building slots for T1 research, then your energy upkeep is 10 for the ten jobs, and no gasses.
Just because I can build a ringworld district with 10 jobs doesn't mean that there'll be pops growing faster to fill it.

I'm aware of it. But as you know, doing that will bring my game to a crawl 2 centuries in, so I have to stick to default settings.
Yes, the way things are, don't really work for ecumenopli/their counter parts, and ringworlds. Unfortunately, I don't think that they will be able to sufficiently tackle the problem until Stellaris 2. Too much overhauling of what is already there.

I don't mind it being in bad shape, or even shattered. Just why is everything usable except the research parts?
From a balance perspective? Because the research segment/districts were the problem. From a story perspective? Well, of all the districts, the only one that is heavily dependent on building would be a research. The building in them won't be equipped with large warehouses, nor large pathways or open pavillons for markets. After a few tens of thousands of years, the entire district would a mountain of twisted metal, concrete, or plastic polymer.

On their own, they are not. They only allow a faster transition to research jobs at game start, compared to other origins. That gives an advantage, but to state that the research district is OP implies that the district is OP at all points of time in the game. Once all your pops are doing their intended job and you have 2 years to build before your next pop grows, then research district only saves some minerals and time compared to research lab. And as I've mentioned before, an origin with all slots open will be at par with research districts (I don't mean the 10 job research segment).
Using the VD research district as an example, that is a three job district, and doesn't need a city district to unlock. Has the same upkeep as a research building. If they make or change the research district for the shattered ring, it will be along these lines, which is over powered compared to buildings. For only 100 more minerals, you get another researcher job. An origin with all building slots open is only equal to research districts when you spam research building. And even then, it's more expensive, especially with upkeep.

Regarding the proposed origin, one option could be to have blockers from, say, 6th district onwards, requiring gases. It would still be faster than most origins, but if a civilization finds itself on a shattered remains of planet with massive dedicated areas towards research, then it is a part of the story that they can tech faster. It's no different from a ME Doomsday getting +30% to alloy, mineral and energy output in the beginning, and effectively +100% output from year 30 onwards.
See, the problem with that idea, is that it doesn't solve the issue at hand. At least with Void Dweller, they are limited in how fast they can expand, at first, at least. With the Relic worlds, they have to restore them first. To be honest, I'd rather see a planetary feature (Similar to Dense Ruins or a weaker version of Central Spire) rather than shattered ring get research districts.

Like just to clear up how much better districts are than buildings, try a non void dweller game where you only grow your food in hydroponic farms. Then you will get the point I am making about districts.
 
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"Origins are not supposed to be balanced"

They aren't supposed to be balanced against each other (one origin can simply be better than others) but they definatly are supposed to be balanced in the framework of the game itself!
If an origin is so powerful that it breaks (parts) of the game, it has to be nerfed.

Its just like anomalies & archeology - anybody remembers the 20k ship excravation Site you were able to get in the early game? This got nerfed too, because it broke the game ^^
I hope the 20k early game fleet from scion will be next...
 
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I get what you mean, and no I don't think it's balanced atm. Even tho it's a long road with a goal that we might never reach I still think balance is something that should be strived for.

From what I read in your first post I got the impression you're saying that one shouldn't try to balance the game and just stick to story 100% of the time, correct me here if I am wrong on that. I think it shoud be compromise, but yeah story should be a big part of that too.
When I spoke of balance, I meant that in context of origins. Multiplayer already bans certain origins or exploits like negative energy, and in SP, it's the player's choice if he wishes to play that origin in that manner. Even the current ringworld tech boom requires a player to play as a machine empire, and use the negative energy exploit. If a player wishes to do that in SP, then it is not really affecting your or my single player experience. It is no different from a player playing on lowest difficulty with player bonuses or with console commands. We can still choose to play the ringworld without using exploits. Will we still have faster teching than most empires? Yes. But that's part of the story of being on a ringworld - a ringworld with huge areas dedicated to research should reflect that advantage. Just like Machine Empire Doomsday gets 30% bonus to alloy, mineral and energy on day 1 and effectively 100% bonus in year 30. Or Organics Doomday just have penalties to everything, which get worse.
To balance the origins would mean to remove origins that lock the species to certain unique planet types like void dwellers or life seeded.

When it comes to balancing things like nerfing Technocracy, Slaver Guilds etc, I'm all for it.
I think I got that impression mostly from that part, "This is not Dota or starcraft that has to be balanced for multiplayer.", to be exact.

I just disagree with that statement. I think it should be balanced for multiplayer, since there's a decently sized amount of people that play the game that way. Additionally balance also adds to singleplayer. I know some people that always play the same cuase those things are better. They feel limited by the balance.
You are without doubt entitled to your beliefs and wishes for the game. Some players are min maxers and play it like a strategy game to "win", but at the other end of the spectrum, the game also has a player base of roleplayers who like to create their own story in a randomly generated universe and write AARs.
It is my understanding that paradox's vision of the game is to be somewhere in between these two, and not just make a strategy game. That is why the ethics have a personality - materialists tends to be friendly towards other materialists or machines, spiritualists don't like them, xenophobes dislike everyone, xenophiles try to like everyone etc. And each has their own behavior of playing. This creates unique and diverse galaxies and playthroughs.
Meanwhile, if the AI were implemented as a strategy game, which you can see with Starnet mod, then all AI empires would just take the best traits - rapid breeders etc, spiritualists would spam research labs instead of temples and every AI would play for conquering their neighbor and expanding. This would lead to repetitive and monotonous experience across most playthroughs.
 
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Except that districts are superior to buildings. Less upkeep, and they provide housing, so less messing around with city districts. That is what makes habitat, Ringworlds, Hive worlds, Ecumenopoli and Machine worlds so powerful.
Let me address this for regular planets (non ringworld/ecu/habitats). I assume we are speaking about specialist districts and not the food/mineral/energy ones because they never had equivalent buildings (except hydroponic farms). Specialist job districts are better early game due to mineral saving but significantly worse later on. The game rewards planet specialization by significant bonus to product or discount to upkeep, i.e. I want to build only alloys on a world.
On a size 10 planet, you'd only get 20 jobs from districts and 3 from the two alloy related building. So, you'd have total, maybe 28 jobs including rulers, entertainers on the planet after which you'd run out of housing and jobs and new pops would become unemployed.
Meanwhile, you could build 11 advanced research labs for 66 jobs and the size 10 planet would give you enough housing for it.
Moreover, housing districts also increase carrying capacity when compared to industrial districts, since free housing is added to carrying capacity. So, at some point, your industrial district pop growth would start becoming slower in comparison.
On a size 15, you'd get 30 + 3 jobs alloy jobs, while the research labs would use 10 housing districts for housing the 66 researchers, while the remaining 5 could be used to extract minerals/energy/farms after all the researcher jobs are filled.
On a size 25, you'd still be only 50 + 3 jobs compared to 66 researchers, meanwhile the research labs would then have 15 free districts remaining for extracting minerals/energy/food.
Jobs in buildings utilize a planet much better than districts do. They allow you to have significantly more jobs and higher carrying capacity.
Ringworld segments have less upkeep. A ringworld research districts needs only 5 energy and two exotic gasses in upkeep to provide ten jobs.
At a minimum, you need two building slots; a T3 and a T2 research building to provide ten jobs. Together they require a total of 13 energy and three exotic gasses in upkeep. Let's you just use five building slots for T1 research, then your energy upkeep is 10 for the ten jobs, and no gasses.
You calculation is only considering the ideal situation here. . If you built or restored a ringworld after getting megaengineering instead of starting on it, at some point, you'll have the 1st researcher pop, and a 2nd and a 3rd. So, for 4-5 years, your research district will have 5 energy and 2 gas upkeep for 1 job, and another 4-5 years for 2 jobs, and another 4-5 years for 3 jobs and so on. As you can imagine, the buildings approach will only ever have 1 wasted slot, and until the first 20 jobs on the planet, the upkeep would be far cheaper (base price of 2 gases is 20 before market fee). And that is without taking into account the upfront 10000 alloys to build the ringworld on which we want to build these "cheaper" districts.
Yes, the way things are, don't really work for ecumenopli/their counter parts, and ringworlds. Unfortunately, I don't think that they will be able to sufficiently tackle the problem until Stellaris 2. Too much overhauling of what is already there.


From a balance perspective? Because the research segment/districts were the problem. From a story perspective? Well, of all the districts, the only one that is heavily dependent on building would be a research. The building in them won't be equipped with large warehouses, nor large pathways or open pavillons for markets. After a few tens of thousands of years, the entire district would a mountain of twisted metal, concrete, or plastic polymer.
You are looking at the balance problem in isolation. The research segment feels like the problem because the arcane generator gives free upkeep of gases and access to buy it from market, tile blockers gives minerals and 100 gases to build two research segments and 200 other rare resources which player has to sell to buy more gases for upkeep until he can research refineries .
This early and relatively cheap access to these resources from the origin allows a player to build a research segment in year 2, and a 2nd segment in year 7 or 8.
The segment itself is not the problem. If the arcane generator is adjusted to only support the starting districts (farming/industry/generator) and there are no free resources from tileblockers, the origin will feel at par with other origins.

VD do get the districts, but they have been nerfed to the ground from the changes that came in 3.0. Habitats have low carrying capacity, so your pop growth never gets the 1.5x bonus due to the curve that you get on other planets, and you actually start getting a growth malus in around year 20 on the 2 smaller habitats. And besides the first 5 districts (15 jobs), to create more such districts requires an upfront 1500 alloys and 150 influence to build more habitats, which, will give 4 such districts if you don't even build habitation districts.
VD only works as an origin if you either stop playing as a VD as soon as possible - either sign migration treaties and colonize regular planets with those pops, or conquer planets from your neighbor and colonize more planets with those pops.
Using the VD research district as an example, that is a three job district, and doesn't need a city district to unlock. Has the same upkeep as a research building. If they make or change the research district for the shattered ring, it will be along these lines, which is over powered compared to buildings. For only 100 more minerals, you get another researcher job. An origin with all building slots open is only equal to research districts when you spam research building. And even then, it's more expensive, especially with upkeep.
VD districts are unique and larger because they are limited and VD don't get building slots from habitation districts. For example, VD energy or mining districts are also 3 jobs, but that's not the case on regular planets. If there would be research districts on the new origin, I would assume it would cost the same, if not more, as regular industrial districts - 500 minerals/16 months for 2 jobs. The dev diary alludes to 5 agriculture districts being converted to 1 agriculture segment upon restoring the ringworld, so it's safe to assume that ringworld districts would be 2 jobs each.
See, the problem with that idea, is that it doesn't solve the issue at hand. At least with Void Dweller, they are limited in how fast they can expand, at first, at least. With the Relic worlds, they have to restore them first. To be honest, I'd rather see a planetary feature (Similar to Dense Ruins or a weaker version of Central Spire) rather than shattered ring get research districts.

Like just to clear up how much better districts are than buildings, try a non void dweller game where you only grow your food in hydroponic farms. Then you will get the point I am making about districts.
 
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Let me address this for regular planets (non ringworld/ecu/habitats). I assume we are speaking about specialist districts and not the food/mineral/energy ones because they never had equivalent buildings (except hydroponic farms). Specialist job districts are better early game due to mineral saving but significantly worse later on. The game rewards planet specialization by significant bonus to product or discount to upkeep, i.e. I want to build only alloys on a world.
On a size 10 planet, you'd only get 20 jobs from districts and 3 from the two alloy related building. So, you'd have total, maybe 28 jobs including rulers, entertainers on the planet after which you'd run out of housing and jobs and new pops would become unemployed.
Meanwhile, you could build 11 advanced research labs for 66 jobs and the size 10 planet would give you enough housing for it.
Moreover, housing districts also increase carrying capacity when compared to industrial districts, since free housing is added to carrying capacity. So, at some point, your industrial district pop growth would start becoming slower in comparison.
On a size 15, you'd get 30 + 3 jobs alloy jobs, while the research labs would use 10 housing districts for housing the 66 researchers, while the remaining 5 could be used to extract minerals/energy/farms after all the researcher jobs are filled.
On a size 25, you'd still be only 50 + 3 jobs compared to 66 researchers, meanwhile the research labs would then have 15 free districts remaining for extracting minerals/energy/food.
Jobs in buildings utilize a planet much better than districts do. They allow you to have significantly more jobs and higher carrying capacity.
Here's the problem, Housing districts provide way too much housing. They house their two clerks, plus six more pops. Which is perfect for the two building that provide for +6 six jobs (Science and unity), But you usually need more than that on a planet, like an entertainer building, and enforcer. That screws with the Housing, and you end up a ton extra housing that you now can't fill. And unless you are a democracy, you have to spend influence that should be used on claims and mega structures either issuing population controls, or micro managing the population.

You calculation is only considering the ideal situation here. . If you built or restored a ringworld after getting megaengineering instead of starting on it, at some point, you'll have the 1st researcher pop, and a 2nd and a 3rd. So, for 4-5 years, your research district will have 5 energy and 2 gas upkeep for 1 job, and another 4-5 years for 2 jobs, and another 4-5 years for 3 jobs and so on. As you can imagine, the buildings approach will only ever have 1 wasted slot, and until the first 20 jobs on the planet, the upkeep would be far cheaper (base price of 2 gases is 20 before market fee). And that is without taking into account the upfront 10000 alloys to build the ringworld on which we want to build these "cheaper" districts.
If we are going to go down this route, we must consider then from an equal veiwpoint. Assuming you have a planet and ringworld, with no availiable housing, jobs, or unemployed pops. It will cost 2,800 minerals and 200 Exotic gasses to build; and 232 energy, and 96 Exotic gasses in upkeep over the 2,280 days needed to create ten researcher jobs with no one to man them on a planet. That's just if you have building slots. If you don't, that increases the mineral cost of those 10 researcher jobs by 1k, the time by 960 days, and the energy upkeep over time by 152-336 depending on the construction order.
By comparison with the Ringworld will cost 1k minerals, be done in 360 days, and only cost 5 energy and 2 exotic gasses.

If you want to compare them, you have to compare them side by side in similar situations, otherwise you are making a false equivalence. As to whether or not they are practically worth it is an individualistic choice. Economically, the Ringworld segments are a no brainer. On a practical level, that will vary from game to game. I usually play as a democracy with a ton of transit hubs, and I liberate slaves off the market as an energy sink. I also usually play on 5x planets and am Xenophile with Xeno-compatibility, and I always beeline for the omnicodex when I find it so I don't have much trouble filling Ringworlds.

You are looking at the balance problem in isolation. The research segment feels like the problem because the arcane generator gives free upkeep of gases and access to buy it from market, tile blockers gives minerals and 100 gases to build two research segments and 200 other rare resources which player has to sell to buy more gases for upkeep until he can research refineries .
This early and relatively cheap access to these resources from the origin allows a player to build a research segment in year 2, and a 2nd segment in year 7 or 8.
The segment itself is not the problem. If the arcane generator is adjusted to only support the starting districts (farming/industry/generator) and there are no free resources from tileblockers, the origin will feel at par with other origins.
This is funny. So when I play Stellaris, I rp. My people have no idea what this arcane generator does. So I make I have harvestable SR before building a segment. Usually, I can get research segment online around 15-20 years in the game. At which point I can triple my science jobs by building a research segment. Even going into 40-50 before getting it online, I still increase my science by at least 50% when I build and staff it.
On the rare occasions where I can activate it in years 5-15, I just ignore research buildings totally. By the time my ringworld is feeling cramped, I've already restored the other two rings and am colonizing them. At which I can repurpose most of my other segments into research.
Even without providing resources from blockers, and the arcane generator, this is the most overpowered origin.
Look, I am an rper. I don't do pop micro (Including resettlement hell), I do float early game deficiencies, but shift all of my focus to rectifying the deficiency. Any resource goes into the red, and I immediately shift into fixing mode. I don't even really take advantage of the arcane generator. Basically, I play in the most suboptimal way possible, and it is still overpowered because of research districts.

VD do get the districts, but they have been nerfed to the ground from the changes that came in 3.0. Habitats have low carrying capacity, so your pop growth never gets the 1.5x bonus due to the curve that you get on other planets, and you actually start getting a growth malus in around year 20 on the 2 smaller habitats. And besides the first 5 districts (15 jobs), to create more such districts requires an upfront 1500 alloys and 150 influence to build more habitats, which, will give 4 such districts if you don't even build habitation districts.
VD only works as an origin if you either stop playing as a VD as soon as possible - either sign migration treaties and colonize regular planets with those pops, or conquer planets from your neighbor and colonize more planets with those pops.
I don't know how you play VD, but my VD FP still work too well and out tech the rest of galaxy faster than all other origins, other than ringworld.

VD districts are unique and larger because they are limited and VD don't get building slots from habitation districts. For example, VD energy or mining districts are also 3 jobs, but that's not the case on regular planets. If there would be research districts on the new origin, I would assume it would cost the same, if not more, as regular industrial districts - 500 minerals/16 months for 2 jobs. The dev diary alludes to 5 agriculture districts being converted to 1 agriculture segment upon restoring the ringworld, so it's safe to assume that ringworld districts would be 2 jobs each.
If they were to make Research districts, they would use VD as a base to run with, not the standard planetary districts. Even if they were down sized to 2, they would most likely carry a similar cost efficiency. Or a cost efficiency similar to a Research segment.
Now they could follow a planetery based model, but if they do, they will have to add them to all planets (Because the cumulative fan input will wear them down). Which is why I think they'll follow a more Habitat/Ringworld based model. Meaning that if they have 2 jobs, they will either have reduced maintenance, or reduced build cost.
And I don't want a planetary research district, because just going as a non tech rush Peaceful unification origin, you can reach mega engineering by 2100. And unless they are going to rebalance the tech cost, or system as a whole, I don't think that's the best idea.

Also, I think you forgot to mention one of your points. Your post just ends with this quote of mine.

See, the problem with that idea, is that it doesn't solve the issue at hand. At least with Void Dweller, they are limited in how fast they can expand, at first, at least. With the Relic worlds, they have to restore them first. To be honest, I'd rather see a planetary feature (Similar to Dense Ruins or a weaker version of Central Spire) rather than shattered ring get research districts.

Like just to clear up how much better districts are than buildings, try a non void dweller game where you only grow your food in hydroponic farms. Then you will get the point I am making about districts.
 

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Here's the problem, Housing districts provide way too much housing. They house their two clerks, plus six more pops. Which is perfect for the two building that provide for +6 six jobs (Science and unity), But you usually need more than that on a planet, like an entertainer building, and enforcer. That screws with the Housing, and you end up a ton extra housing that you now can't fill. And unless you are a democracy, you have to spend influence that should be used on claims and mega structures either issuing population controls, or micro managing the population.

Would automatic migration take care of that?
 

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"Origins are not supposed to be balanced"

They aren't supposed to be balanced against each other (one origin can simply be better than others) but they definatly are supposed to be balanced in the framework of the game itself!
If an origin is so powerful that it breaks (parts) of the game, it has to be nerfed.

Its just like anomalies & archeology - anybody remembers the 20k ship excravation Site you were able to get in the early game? This got nerfed too, because it broke the game ^^
I hope the 20k early game fleet from scion will be next...

The Grand Herald pre nerf was not actually as powerful as is memed about. It was an expensive free ship, which is of course more than the 5 minor artifacts and 1k social research most dig sites give. So quite a lot of free alloys in an usable form, with an upkeep that was crippling early game.
It was also kitted out with big guns, so great at taking out stations, and bad at fighting small ships, like corvettes which tore it apart rather easily.

What it broke was the AI. The AI is stupid, it doesn't understand that that big, scary ship will fall to a score of covettes. But it saw a big scary military power number and as such would not fight it in a war, would not declare war and would try to get the owner as an ally/protector.
That ship was a powerful tool of diplomacy, not war.
 
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I'd like to see both balanced and unbalanced origins, with the latter having a way to be excluded from MP.

In terms of SP, sometimes I want to give one of the AIs a significant advantage, like I want the Tzynn to be a threat so I give them an extra-juicy starting position with both guaranteed primitive planets (to enslave) and guaranteed habitable planets (to expand). Sometimes I do the same for Tebrid Homolog, who can also benefit greatly from having nearby primitives.

In favor of that, I'd really like it if Origins could give the AI hints about how to behave embedded in the Origins. "Don't observe these primitives, just invade them", and so on.
 

ankitkumar29

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Here's the problem, Housing districts provide way too much housing. They house their two clerks, plus six more pops. Which is perfect for the two building that provide for +6 six jobs (Science and unity), But you usually need more than that on a planet, like an entertainer building, and enforcer. That screws with the Housing, and you end up a ton extra housing that you now can't fill. And unless you are a democracy, you have to spend influence that should be used on claims and mega structures either issuing population controls, or micro managing the population.
It's the other way around mate. Carrying capacity is calculated based on total housing + 4* unused district slots. Building a housing district (with 6 housing, without bonus from techs) effectively increases the carrying capacity by 2. Building an industrial district with only 2 housing effectively decreases the carrying capacity by 2. Mineral/Energy/Agriculture effective decrease it by 1.
Taking the example of a size 15 planet, when built with buildings, you'd have to fill up around 75-80 jobs before you'd have pops that would be unemployed, and that's by excluding clerks.
A planet built with industrial or other districts would have not even half as many jobs, and would fill the planet slower due to lowered capacity.
As for the unemployed pops after there are no more jobs, firstly, it'll take over 150 years to fill a planet with 80 pops that you colonize in the first decade. But for those 150+ years, you'd have the advantage of more pops and jobs.
Anyway, are you aware that unemployed pops have a chance to auto resettle? - on average 15-20 months IIRC without any starbase buildings or bonus.
If we are going to go down this route, we must consider then from an equal veiwpoint. Assuming you have a planet and ringworld, with no availiable housing, jobs, or unemployed pops. It will cost 2,800 minerals and 200 Exotic gasses to build; and 232 energy, and 96 Exotic gasses in upkeep over the 2,280 days needed to create ten researcher jobs with no one to man them on a planet. That's just if you have building slots. If you don't, that increases the mineral cost of those 10 researcher jobs by 1k, the time by 960 days, and the energy upkeep over time by 152-336 depending on the construction order.
By comparison with the Ringworld will cost 1k minerals, be done in 360 days, and only cost 5 energy and 2 exotic gasses.
Let's do the comparison. At the equal viewpoint, both the planet and the restored ringworld would be in the same timeline - somewhere around 2280-2300. At this point, I'd be growing a new pop every 5 years, roughly. So, it would take roughly 50 years to fill the 10 jobs on both planets.
So, I have 5 years to build a housing district + lab and start paying upkeep of 1 lab and housing district. I don't have to build more housing or labs for the next 10 years.
Since I build 1 housing + lab every 10 years, total upkeep over 50 years is can be computed as (10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50) * 48 (the combined yearly upkeep) i.e. 7200.
Meanwhile, the ringworld would be paying the full upkeep for the entire segment for 50 years i.e. 3000 credits + 1200 gases (even if I price the gases conservatively at 7, the price at which you could sell your excess gas to the market, that's 8400 energy credits worth of gases).
Build cost would be 9000 minerals for 10 housing + labs spread over 50 years, but that is nothing in comparison to the 10000 alloys upfront spent on restoring the ruined ringworld (or 25000 alloys if you built one from scratch).
P.S. Since I already have megastructures, I'd also have the techs researched that decrease the build time by 25% and 50% respectively. For the sake of simplicity in calculation, I have factored that I'd build 10 housing district. But in reality it'd just be 6 housing, I'd already have the two techs for +1 district, and would have total 2 free slots from the capital building (at 25 pops).


If you want to compare them, you have to compare them side by side in similar situations, otherwise you are making a false equivalence. As to whether or not they are practically worth it is an individualistic choice. Economically, the Ringworld segments are a no brainer. On a practical level, that will vary from game to game. I usually play as a democracy with a ton of transit hubs, and I liberate slaves off the market as an energy sink. I also usually play on 5x planets and am Xenophile with Xeno-compatibility, and I always beeline for the omnicodex when I find it so I don't have much trouble filling Ringworlds.
You play with 5x planets (compared to the default 1x, that's effectively 4-5x the pops in the galaxy after 100 years), probably that's why you don't have the trouble in filling it. You'd have a different experience on 1x.
This is funny. So when I play Stellaris, I rp. My people have no idea what this arcane generator does. So I make I have harvestable SR before building a segment. Usually, I can get research segment online around 15-20 years in the game. At which point I can triple my science jobs by building a research segment. Even going into 40-50 before getting it online, I still increase my science by at least 50% when I build and staff it.
On the rare occasions where I can activate it in years 5-15, I just ignore research buildings totally. By the time my ringworld is feeling cramped, I've already restored the other two rings and am colonizing them. At which I can repurpose most of my other segments into research.
Even without providing resources from blockers, and the arcane generator, this is the most overpowered origin.
Can you really claim that without actually playing without the arcane generator/blockers? The reasons the origin has it is because it would severely hamstrung without it.
A ME doomsday with total war CB is far more OP.
Look, I am an rper. I don't do pop micro (Including resettlement hell), I do float early game deficiencies, but shift all of my focus to rectifying the deficiency. Any resource goes into the red, and I immediately shift into fixing mode. I don't even really take advantage of the arcane generator. Basically, I play in the most suboptimal way possible, and it is still overpowered because of research districts.


I don't know how you play VD, but my VD FP still work too well and out tech the rest of galaxy faster than all other origins, other than ringworld.
Out teching the AI is not a reasonable measure, because the vanilla AI is terrible at research. VD played as VD (i.e. not get migration treaties and colonizing loads of planets like a regular empire) has its powerspike around 30 years into the game, and then it falls off because the habitats have malus to pop growth after few years.
If they were to make Research districts, they would use VD as a base to run with, not the standard planetary districts. Even if they were down sized to 2, they would most likely carry a similar cost efficiency. Or a cost efficiency similar to a Research segment.
Habitat districts are made most cost effective because habitats don't get extra building slots from habitation districts. But lets see what the devs actually do.
 
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PetyaHU

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i hope this update fixes the issue that:
anyway i don't know if anyone noticed this problem that if you copy an existing empire and modify it you will sentence the original empire to death
for example:
if you modify human origin to voidborn (creating new empire with same Species) and in game spam the original empire for ai. Then they're pretty slowly dying down because they're also starting with the vodiborn trait so the Earth is 0% habitable for them .... I wondered why the United Nations of Earth/Commonwealth of Man would not survive the first few decades
Why does it not work that other origins become same species sub-species?
maybe i should report a buuuug...
 
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oreopirate

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Would automatic migration take care of that?
In my experience, yes. I find that by mid game, an unemployed pop has 8-12 months before it moves off planet of it's own accord.

It's the other way around mate. Carrying capacity is calculated based on total housing + 4* unused district slots. Building a housing district (with 6 housing, without bonus from techs) effectively increases the carrying capacity by 2. Building an industrial district with only 2 housing effectively decreases the carrying capacity by 2. Mineral/Energy/Agriculture effective decrease it by 1.
Taking the example of a size 15 planet, when built with buildings, you'd have to fill up around 75-80 jobs before you'd have pops that would be unemployed, and that's by excluding clerks.
A planet built with industrial or other districts would have not even half as many jobs, and would fill the planet slower due to lowered capacity.
As for the unemployed pops after there are no more jobs, firstly, it'll take over 150 years to fill a planet with 80 pops that you colonize in the first decade. But for those 150+ years, you'd have the advantage of more pops and jobs.
Anyway, are you aware that unemployed pops have a chance to auto resettle? - on average 15-20 months IIRC without any starbase buildings or bonus.
Okay, I don't know what happened here. Either my point wasn't clear, or you misunderstood what I was trying to say. My point was that you end up with more housing than jobs you can fit on a planet. And then you either have deal continued growth, where a pop is useless or expand influence to stop growth. I am well aware that they will move on their own, but how long depends on ethics, pop rights, even planetary building (Slave Processing Center).

Let's do the comparison. At the equal viewpoint, both the planet and the restored ringworld would be in the same timeline - somewhere around 2280-2300. At this point, I'd be growing a new pop every 5 years, roughly. So, it would take roughly 50 years to fill the 10 jobs on both planets.
So, I have 5 years to build a housing district + lab and start paying upkeep of 1 lab and housing district. I don't have to build more housing or labs for the next 10 years.
Since I build 1 housing + lab every 10 years, total upkeep over 50 years is can be computed as (10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50) * 48 (the combined yearly upkeep) i.e. 7200.
Meanwhile, the ringworld would be paying the full upkeep for the entire segment for 50 years i.e. 3000 credits + 1200 gases (even if I price the gases conservatively at 7, the price at which you could sell your excess gas to the market, that's 8400 energy credits worth of gases).
Build cost would be 9000 minerals for 10 housing + labs spread over 50 years, but that is nothing in comparison to the 10000 alloys upfront spent on restoring the ruined ringworld (or 25000 alloys if you built one from scratch).
P.S. Since I already have megastructures, I'd also have the techs researched that decrease the build time by 25% and 50% respectively. For the sake of simplicity in calculation, I have factored that I'd build 10 housing district. But in reality it'd just be 6 housing, I'd already have the two techs for +1 district, and would have total 2 free slots from the capital building (at 25 pops).
While I agree, accounting for the alloys increases the cost immensely, you have a total of four (or five) uses for alloys.
1) Ships.
2) Starbases
3) Mega structures.
4) Selling
5) Warrior culture.
In my experience, even 25k alloys is a trivial investment, since I usually have 2x that number stocked up by the time I research mega structures. And at most, 25k will represent four years of alloy income. And with very few sinks, it's easy to accumulate, unlike minerals which you need constantly
You play with 5x planets (compared to the default 1x, that's effectively 4-5x the pops in the galaxy after 100 years), probably that's why you don't have the trouble in filling it. You'd have a different experience on 1x.

I Have played, and do play on 1x. I play on 4-5x more often, but I know what it is like on 1x. It is harder to fill them on 1x, but I usually don't find it that herculean of a task. It may just be the way that I play in general the relics and precursors I prioritize. But in general, I find the game doesn't vary as much on 1x vs 5x, unless the player colonizes everything. The AI is not great at colonizing

Can you really claim that without actually playing without the arcane generator/blockers? The reasons the origin has it is because it would severely hamstrung without it.
A ME doomsday with total war CB is far more OP.
Only reason the origin is hamstrung without it, is because the origin starts you off with an agri, and industrial segment. And those need SR. What they have done with the nerf, is remove fact that you start off immediately needing to provide SR. Unless they rework the AG, the player would off with only +10 energy a month (Not a big deal) and only 4 amenities (Which is a *slightly* bigger problem, but not much given the horde of open building slots).

Out teching the AI is not a reasonable measure, because the vanilla AI is terrible at research. VD played as VD (i.e. not get migration treaties and colonizing loads of planets like a regular empire) has its powerspike around 30 years into the game, and then it falls off because the habitats have malus to pop growth after few years.

Habitat districts are made most cost effective because habitats don't get extra building slots from habitation districts. But lets see what the devs actually do.
Out teching the AI is the only reasonable measure as there too many other factors involved in other ways. Like with MP, you need to do meta, and all sorts of growth harvesting shenanigans to tech up the most. With reaching a tech by X date, depends on your card draws. We've all had games with crappy draws, where we didn't draw destroyers until almost 2270, or where it takes 160 years to draw the survey tech.
The AI might, but I doubt than most new players would even run into that. But that doesn't say much about the origin, because the AI is the AI. Too many moving part for the AI, but at least it doesn't rollover any more. Just... Kinda flops, like a shocked Carp.
 

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While I agree, accounting for the alloys increases the cost immensely, you have a total of four (or five) uses for alloys.
1) Ships.
2) Starbases
3) Mega structures.
4) Selling
5) Warrior culture.

Robot pops are also built by paying Alloys, and some army units (e.g. Cybrex Warforms) also cost Alloys.
 

SirBlackAxe

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My point was that you end up with more housing than jobs you can fit on a planet. And then you either have deal continued growth, where a pop is useless or expand influence to stop growth. I am well aware that they will move on their own, but how long depends on ethics, pop rights, even planetary building (Slave Processing Center).
I believe that with all traditions and tech, you'll need 5 city districts to unlock all building slots and you'll end up with 36 extra housing on the planet (5x6 from the districts + 6 extra from the capital). It shouldn't be too hard to plan your 11 buildings so they create exactly 36 jobs between them, except if you're making a dedicated refinery world (don't). That's 6 six job buildings or 9 four job buildings.

8 four jobs, 2 one jobs, 1 two job gets you 11 buildings pretty handily as a baseline. 7 fours jobs and 4 two jobs is another good starting point and converts nicely into other combos like 1 six, 6 fours, 2 twos, and 2 ones. You'll need extra city districts if you're building a bunch of six job buildings, but it's not too hard to scale up either.
 

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I believe that with all traditions and tech, you'll need 5 city districts to unlock all building slots and you'll end up with 36 extra housing on the planet (5x6 from the districts + 6 extra from the capital). It shouldn't be too hard to plan your 11 buildings so they create exactly 36 jobs between them, except if you're making a dedicated refinery world (don't). That's 6 six job buildings or 9 four job buildings.

You're not counting Adaptation?

Four with Functional Architecture in 3.0

Three with the 3.1 version of Functional Architecture

Two if you take Adaptation and Functional Architecture in 3.1

... and yeah, if you need refinery buildings, put them on a no-resource Habitat.

However I will point out that you want a bit of excess housing because you expect to have one or two unemployed pops when your planet is functioning as a breeder colony, since unemployed pops will auto-migrate to a world with jobs. There's no need to suffer the stability penalty for a homeless pop during that time span.
 

ankitkumar29

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In my experience, yes. I find that by mid game, an unemployed pop has 8-12 months before it moves off planet of it's own accord.


Okay, I don't know what happened here. Either my point wasn't clear, or you misunderstood what I was trying to say. My point was that you end up with more housing than jobs you can fit on a planet. And then you either have deal continued growth, where a pop is useless or expand influence to stop growth. I am well aware that they will move on their own, but how long depends on ethics, pop rights, even planetary building (Slave Processing Center).
I understood your point. In my experience, it is not a problem. On a planet filled near capacity, 150 years into the game, pop growth would crawl to 1 pop every decade or so. Automatic resettlement time without bonus is on average 15-20 months. Economically, a single unemployed pop at that point is not a problem.

While I agree, accounting for the alloys increases the cost immensely, you have a total of four (or five) uses for alloys.
1) Ships.
2) Starbases
3) Mega structures.
4) Selling
5) Warrior culture.
In my experience, even 25k alloys is a trivial investment, since I usually have 2x that number stocked up by the time I research mega structures. And at most, 25k will represent four years of alloy income. And with very few sinks, it's easy to accumulate, unlike minerals which you need constantly
Yes we need minerals constantly, and if I can build up an economy in which 25k alloys is trivial, I can surely also have surplus minerals for one extra housing district every 5 years.
I Have played, and do play on 1x. I play on 4-5x more often, but I know what it is like on 1x. It is harder to fill them on 1x, but I usually don't find it that herculean of a task. It may just be the way that I play in general the relics and precursors I prioritize. But in general, I find the game doesn't vary as much on 1x vs 5x, unless the player colonizes everything. The AI is not great at colonizing
Yes, the AI is a problem. In case you haven't already, you should check out Starnet/Startech mods. AI utilizes the resources properly and on higher difficulty level, you'll find it difficult to keep up with AI on tech.
Only reason the origin is hamstrung without it, is because the origin starts you off with an agri, and industrial segment. And those need SR. What they have done with the nerf, is remove fact that you start off immediately needing to provide SR. Unless they rework the AG, the player would off with only +10 energy a month (Not a big deal) and only 4 amenities (Which is a *slightly* bigger problem, but not much given the horde of open building slots).
Keeping the SR is fair. But the 10 energy loss is not trivial, since you don't have energy districts at all, and all you get it the base 10 of each resource that the starting planet gets.
Out teching the AI is the only reasonable measure as there too many other factors involved in other ways. Like with MP, you need to do meta, and all sorts of growth harvesting shenanigans to tech up the most. With reaching a tech by X date, depends on your card draws. We've all had games with crappy draws, where we didn't draw destroyers until almost 2270, or where it takes 160 years to draw the survey tech.
The AI might, but I doubt than most new players would even run into that. But that doesn't say much about the origin, because the AI is the AI. Too many moving part for the AI, but at least it doesn't rollover any more. Just... Kinda flops, like a shocked Carp.
Tech rate is usually measures in - 500 total tech by which year, 1k by which year etc. Vanilla AI might be sitting at less than 100 total tech 50 years into the game.