Stellaris Dev Diary #221 - Balance and Quality of Life Improvements

Hey folks, I’m @Alfray Stryke, a member of the QA team for Stellaris. As part of the Custodians’ work on the 3.1 “Lem” patch, as mentioned in Dev Diary #215, the team has done a balance and Quality of Life pass on various features throughout the game and we’d like to highlight some of the more harder hitting changes. This is not a complete list of all changes, and may contain some not-final numbers. As a reminder, the changes to the Necroids Species Pack were covered in Dev Diary #216, and all of these changes will also be included in the Lem update.

Void Dwellers

We’ve been aware that the implementation of Void Dwellers of having two separate traits, one positive and one negative resulted in behaviour that we weren’t happy with - in particular being able to gene-mod the negative aspects of the trait out of existence. To solve this we’ve made some changes to how the traits work:

  • There is now only a single Void Dweller trait, so it can’t be exploited via genetic modification of your species.
  • The modifiers on the trait itself have changed, previously it gave:
    • +15% Resources from Worker and Specialist jobs & -10% growth speed (for the positive version)
    • -60% growth speed (for the negative version)
  • The new version of the trait is now:
    • +15% Pop Resource Output on Habitats.
    • -15% Pop Resource Output on Non-Artificial Worlds.
    • -10% Growth Speed
    • -30% Happiness on Non-Artificial Worlds.

Void Dweller.png

The new, improved, Void Dweller trait with its modifiers.

What this means is your Void Dwellers pops are most productive and happiest on habitats, have their bonuses removed on ringworlds and have production and happiness penalties if they settle on planets (best to leave those for immigrants or robots!)

Shattered Ring

So before you grab your plasma-pitchforks (yes, plasma-pitchforks are canon now), rebalancing the Shattered Ring origin is something the team has been discussing for a while. We’ve gone through various iterations on decreasing the initial power of the origin, while keeping the player fantasy that it provides in mind and eventually settled on having the progression of the Shattered Ring resemble that of the Remnants origin.

Shattered Ring.png

The Voor Technocracy, showing off the Shattered Ringworld Segment as a homeworld.

The shattered ring itself supports the following district types:
  • City, Hive & Nexus - housing depending on your empire type.
  • Industrial - where valuable consumer goods and alloys can be manufactured.
  • Trade - where clerks turn a tidy profit and artisans run their workshops.
  • Generator (not pictured) - where hive-minds and machine intelligence power their infrastructure. Note that Generator and Trade districts swap depending on the owner of the Shattered Ring, much like Commercial and Generator Segments on a ringworld.
  • Agricultural - where food is grown for those that eat it.
  • Mining - more on that in a moment...

Once all the rubble has been cleared out, there’s space for 25 of these districts.

So you might be wondering, “Are those mining districts on my ringworld? What am I mining?”

Well dear reader, the answer is the ring itself!

Mining District.png

Mining districts, aka tunnels filled with valuable minerals and alloys.

As a civilization that has only known life on the ring prior to achieving spaceflight, the only resources available to you were those that made up the ringworld itself. Luckily ruined ringworlds are massive and can spare some missing broken materials without falling into their local sun.

As such your mining district on the shattered ring replaces the regular miner jobs with scrap miner jobs with a base job output of 2 minerals and 1 alloy per month.

Of course, as was alluded to above, we wanted the progression for the shattered ring to resemble that of the relic world from the Remnants origin. So once you’ve cleared all the debris from the shattered ring and researched the appropriate technology you can repair it into a fully functioning ringworld segment.

Repair Shattered Ring.png

Of course, sometimes a bit of home repair work needs to be done.

Upon completion of this monumental task, the districts on the shattered ring are upgraded into their respective ringworld districts at a 5:1 ratio - so 5 agricultural districts become 1 agricultural segment. Since fixing up the ring means you’ll no longer be clearing out material, the mining districts are removed and the ability to construct research segments is added.

Ecumenopolis QoL Changes

Something we’ve received a lot of feedback on is that when a world is transformed into an Ecumenopolis is the assignment of industrial districts.

Prior to 3.1, all of the industrial districts were assumed to be devoted to alloy production and thus converted into foundry arcologies. No more, in 3.1 industrial districts will convert based off of the planetary designation:

  • With the “Foundry World” designation, industrial districts will convert into foundry arcologies, at a 2:1 ratio
  • With the “Factory World” designation, industrial districts will convert into factory arcologies, at a 2:1 ratio.
  • With any other designation, including the “Industrial World” designation, industrial districts will convert into both foundry and factory arcologies, at a 4:1:1 ratio.

Relic World.png

Earth, a bygone relic of a time long past, ready to be restored anew.

Ecumenopolis.png

Earth, restored anew! Note that the local governing algorithm did not assume all industrial capabilities should be focused on supporting the Custodianship Navy.

Another change we’ve implemented is the Arcology Project ascension perk and decision to restore relic worlds into ecumenopolises is now accessible to Rogue Servitors. In addition, the leisure arcologies that would normally be present have been repurposed for housing bio-trophies in luxurious towering arcologies.

Sanctuary Arcology.png

Pampering will be provided at Floor 314, Room 15 at 9:26 am.


Assorted QoL Changes

As mentioned above, the planetary designation for consumer goods has been renamed to Factory World, because we’ve added an Industrial World designation.

Industrial Designations.png

Multiple planetary designations for your various needs

The new Industrial World designation is ideal for planets where you don’t want to focus the Industrial districts on a single job type, instead providing a minor upkeep discount to both Artisan and Metallurgist jobs.

Industrial World.png

Industrial World Designation

Both Hive Worlds and Machine Worlds have gained an additional bonus to bring them more in line with Gaia Worlds. Hive Worlds now have +1 innate Spawning Drone job and Machine Worlds now have +1 innate Replicator job. The Machine World given by the Resource Consolidation origin starts with a blocker which will need to be cleared to unlock the Replicator job.

Hive World.png
Machine World.png


Subversive Cults (MegaCorps with both Gospel of the Masses and Criminal Syndicate) no longer have access to the Temple of Prosperity. Instead, they can now establish a Subversive Shrine in their branch offices - increasing both Spiritualist ethics attraction and crime on the planet.

Subversive Shrine.png

Subversive Shrine Tooltip.png

Subvert expectations with deals so good they’re criminal!

With that I’ll pass things over to @Gruntsatwork to discuss some of the changes we’ve made to civics!

----

Hello everyone. I am one of Game Designers currently working on Stellaris and on the Custodian Team. While we have been busy with radical changes here and there, new civics and origins, we also wanted to have some more tame but no less important balance changes for our already existing civics, specifically for our outliers and those we felt under- or especially over-utilized.

The following lists all the civics we felt needed a substantial lift up
Regular Empires
  • Beacon of Liberty: Gave +15% produced Unity -> Now ALSO also gives -15% Empire Sprawl from Pops
  • Imperial Cult: Gave +1 Edict cap -> Now gives +2 Edict cap
  • Idealistic Foundation: Gave +5% Happiness -> Now gives +10% Happiness
  • Environmentalist: Gave -10% Consumer Goods Upkeep -> Now gives -20% Consumer Goods Upkeep
  • Parliamentary System: Gave +25% Faction Influence -> Now gives +40% Faction Influence
  • Efficient Bureaucracy: Gave +10% Admin Cap -> Now gives +20% Admin Cap
  • Nationalistic Zeal: Gave -10% War Exhaustion Gain and -10% Claim Cost -> Now gives -20% War Exhaustion Gain and -15% Claim Cost
  • Functional Architecture: Gave -10% Building and District Cost, -10% Building and District Upkeep and +1 Building Slot -> Now gives -15% Building and District Cost, +2 Building Slots, Upkeep reduction removed
Hive-Minds
  • Subspace Ephase: Gave +15% Naval Capacity -> Now gives +20% Ship Speed and ALSO gives +15% Naval Capacity
  • Divided Attention: Gave +10% Admin Cap -> Now gives +20% Admin Cap
Machine Intelligences
  • Constructobot: Gave -10% Building and District Cost, -10% Building and District Upkeep and +1 Building Slot -> Now gives -15% Building and District Cost, +2 Building Slots, Upkeep reduction removed
We hope those changes, while strictly number tweaks, will give those civics a breath of fresh air and increase their appeal to the wider player-base because, “oh, shiny new numbers” is one hell of a drug.

Now sadly, only strengthening the civics we felt undervalued or under-used doesn’t solve all issues, so we also introduced some slight nerfs to the 2(3) biggest offenders in terms of being “must have” civics.
  • Slaver Guilds : Reduced enslaved population from 40% to 35%
  • Indentured Assets: Reduced enslaved population from 40% to 35% (Megacorp civic)
  • Technocracy: Added 1 Consumer Goods upkeep to Scientist Jobs that create unity because of Technocracy

As you can tell, for the slaver guild civics, this change is relatively minor, compared to the Technocracy nerf. The goal here is to make those 3 civics slightly less good. We have no intention of nerfing them into the ground. Our goal here is to move them from “the best pick, every time” to “could be best pick, depending on circumstances”.

We will be following your feedback here and over all other platforms very closely as well as our own telemetry and we will keep adjusting and tweaking the civics as we go on.

As an extra note, we know that there are several other civics that definitely need a pick me up, we will be looking into them as well, but not for the Lem update.

That’s everything from us this week! Thanks for reading and we’ll be back next week diving into more changes in the Lem Update.
 
  • 168Like
  • 50Love
  • 12
  • 5
  • 3
Reactions:

Tannhäuser Cake

First Lieutenant
Nov 22, 2020
235
651
The latter.
I agree, it would be nice to be able to preset and save the names of the other two starting habitats in a Void Dweller template.
 

Objulen

Major
40 Badges
Jun 12, 2017
580
532
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sengoku
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
The numbers of the the wrong basis of comparison are wrong whether they disagree or not. The proper basis of comparison of civics that change yields isn't the number of input resources/alloy output, though that's good information to have, it's the margin of the resources of pop per equivalent job the civic replaces.

The 7:6 and 8:9 is the margin of the resources of pop per equivalent job the civic replaces. On a mining world with the upgraded mining building, a pop working a mining job is 113% efficient for providing inputs for alloy production. On a farming world, a pop working a farming job with the upgraded farming building is ~89% efficient.

To bring the civic comparison back to mining guilds, for example, it wouldn't make sense to analyze miner guilds vs another civic by the total output of a miner (5 vs 4, or 6 vs 5), but the marginal output of a miner guild miner vs a non-miner guild miner. At the end of the day, Miner Guild is +1 mineral per miner compared to those who don't get it, and that is the mechanic swap analysis that matters most when comparing civics.

Wrong. It makes perfect sense, because you are paying a Civic slot to have Farm-based alloy production. You are changing the fundamental inputs of the equation from X Minerals -> Y Alloys to Z Food -> Y Alloys. The only Civics for comparison that are directly applicable are ones that affect some part of the original equation with the same cost i.e. a Civic slot. The only civic that specifically and directly impacts X Minerals -> Y Alloys is Mining Guilds.

Catalytic converters is +6 minerals/-9 food per alloy worker vs civics that don't have it. To get +6 minerals boost from Miner Guilds as a civic, you'd need, well, 6 workers working mines. That's net five people for the same civic-based benefit, and even if two of them are spent covering the food upkeep cost with a similar dynamic of miners covering, that's still 3 pops left over after matching the civic-based benefit.

Your basic logic is flawed. Even if we separate the bonus from Mining Guilds, You'd end up with something like this on upgraded worlds:

6 minerals per miner -> 6 minerals per 3 Alloys. Every 6 pops you get a free cycle. So 113% efficiency.
8 food per farmer -> 9 food per 3 Alloys. Every 9th pop is "lost" to pay for the other 8 pops. So ~89% efficiency.

Also, you don't get to just hand wave the farmers from the -9 food. Your output is Alloys, you need to examine the inputs, not random unrelated cargo space.

The 3 pops saved for the same civics bonus are a resource efficiency that isn't caught in a stand-alone conversion rate calculation. As civics are the mechanic swap, that's kind of important.

Saved pops are automatically included in the efficiency ratio, though implied and not stated. A more efficient configuration always uses fewer pops for the same number of jobs.

Similarly, excel resource conversion rates don't account for how applicable bonuses are in certain parts of the game and how they can be achieved.

Most bonuses are the same and cancel out, so base number comparison is all that is needed. For a % bonus to matter, it needs to one that doesn't have an equivalent for the other resource. These are mainly planetary bonuses you can't plan for.

To give another example: plenty of early industrializers can get 5 industrial districts relatively early in the first two decades of the game, which for catalytic converters would be a +30 minerals, -45 food margin as a pop-swap. But to get +30 minerals from Miner Guilds you'd need, well, 30 pops employed as miners.

You're ignoring the cost of the farmers, which really doesn't make sense. The only way this analysis makes sense is if you actually had to wait for 30 miners to get +30 minerals. That's not how it works - you get the bonus minerals to the base production of the miners immediately.

What you need to do is look at the end goal. Alloys.
  • First, is the comparison applicable? They both have the same cost, 1 Civic Slot, so yes, no adjustment or conversion is needed.
  • For each Alloy job, at the start of the game, before any other bonuses, with Catalytic Processing, you get 6 food per farmer, with a ratio of 9 food -> 3 Alloys. That's 66% pop:job efficiency. 3 farmers pay for 2 Metallurgists.
  • For each Alloy job at the start of the game, with Mining Guilds, you get 5 minerals per miner, with a ratio of 6 minerals -> 3 Alloys. that's ~83.33% pop efficiency. That's 6 miners paying for 5 Metallurgist jobs.
    • There will be more fluctuations in the pop efficiency ratio for Miners:Metallurgists, because you can't have fractional jobs, but it will never be worse than Farmers:Metallurgists with Catalytic Processing.

But, again, 7:6 vs 8:9 doesn't capture that because mineral/food:alloy ratios don't encompass this real-game limiting factors.

It absolutely does. What doesn't quite conform to the realities of the game would be having fractional jobs. For example, if you have 4 Metallurgists, you're going to still need 5 miners to pay for them with, 1 mineral left over. That's only 80% pop efficiency, unless you can use that mineral for something else. Luckily, during the early game, you probably can.

This applies to having 2 Metallurgists at the start of the game. You still need 3 Miners, generating 15 minerals and paying 12 for the Alloys. You're getting 66% pop efficiency on that ratio, just like farmers. However, you also get a remainder of 3 minerals you can apply elsewhere, such as buildings and automated space mining, so you still get your money's worth.
 
Last edited:

HFY

Field Marshal
27 Badges
May 15, 2016
3.453
7.191
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Ancient Space
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
That's only 80% pop efficiency, unless you can use that mineral for something else. Luckily, during the early game, you probably can.

Mid-game you can use it to buy some Menacing Multi-Role Destroyers. :cool:
 
  • 2Haha
Reactions:

Tamwin5

General
20 Badges
Dec 3, 2017
2.245
2.345
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
600 minerals only. If you prioritize it over building buildings, you can remove it by end of year 2.

Research segments is what is unique to ringworlds (and habitats) and what sets them apart from all other planets.
So when the new "shattered planet" is only having districts that are available on all other planet types (commercial is clerks + artisans which is equivalent to housing and industrial, exception being the scrap miner), AND restoring it has the exact same prerequisites as restoring another ruined segment, then for all intents and purposes, this is only a "shattered ringworld" in label only, but plays like a regular planet (except worse, because no energy districts for organics and no proper mining districts).

To give an analogy, consider relic worlds today. A relic world is not just a label pasted on a regular planet.
It has special features that make it relevant as a former ecumenopolis and an easier path to restore to an Ecumenopolis (no need of the AP or building up housing/industrial districts).
View attachment 751981

Now imagine, if instead of this design, a relic world didn't have any of these special features, and to restore to ecumenopolis required you to get the AP AND build up all the housing/industrial districts. Then it would be just a regular planet with the Relic world label on it.
This is what the new "shattered ring planet" design feels like to me.

And of course, you are welcome to feel differently.
Ah, hadn't realized it was quite that cheap. Still, that 2-3 years is a significant delay, especially considering that you are delaying extra research and alloys during that time. More realistically those other buildings get built first, and the replicator cleared closer to year 5, year 10 tops.

I think you take a very power centric view about flavor and mechanics. If you were to ask me what the biggest difference between a normal planet and a ringworld, I would say the fact that segments are 5 times the size of normal districts. If you asked me what the strongest aspect of a ring world was, then I'd say the science segment.

You simultaneously complain about the lack of uniqueness, yet also about both of the unique districts being added. "plays like a regular planet (except worse, because no energy districts for organics and no proper mining districts)."

Paring the shattered ring down to be fewer jobs per district was a good move for an origin. At the start of the game, the difference between one segment and two is massive, and a lot of the OPnes came from exploiting that. But even playing normally, if you had a deficit of 10 food you'd need to build a whole new segment giving 10 farmers, far in excess of what's required. Stefan's dealt with this by adding some blockers which reduced the number of jobs per district, but changing planet type (and thus district type) works too. You also don't run into the issue of having to give the planet rare resources in order to build anything.

I'm interested if you think just taking every segment down to 2 jobs per would remove what sets ringworlds apart. You do end up losing the merchant job from commercial segments, but that's because you can't really give 0.4 of a merchant, and merchants are far too strong of a job to be giving out for free. Just clerks is horrible though, so giving an artisan seems like a reasonable compromise to make the district possibly worth building. Personally I'm fine with this move, but if you aren't then your problem is with the district shrinking, NOT the science loss (or rather not just the science loss).

Now, from this point you are trading a non-unique district (habitats have research districts) for a completely unique one (scrap miners). This is adding distinctiveness. Doing the "arithmetic" for lost/gained distinctiveness, you come out even: Lose the merchant, gain scrap miner. I'd make the argument that you gain, considering that scrap miners are fully unique, while you can still get merchants from other sources. Of course, what actually matters is the "feel" of the civic, which differs significantly from person to person and is a much more arbitrary, emotional judgement.

In regards to relic worlds, I actually do have a complaint, although it's a bit tangential. Origin Relic worlds have no special features. And I don't mean the super fancy stuff like central spire or reactor pits (although they don't have those either). I mean they have features like "Ore veined cliffs" and "green hills". I do agree that removing everything that makes relic worlds special would cause them to lose a lot of their charm. But I care far more about specialty and uniqueness than the actual power given by those things.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

ankitkumar29

Colonel
63 Badges
Jan 27, 2013
1.017
813
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Ah, hadn't realized it was quite that cheap. Still, that 2-3 years is a significant delay, especially considering that you are delaying extra research and alloys during that time. More realistically those other buildings get built first, and the replicator cleared closer to year 5, year 10 tops.
Thanks for your reply, by 2 years I meant that you'll have enough minerals after building your first building to clear the blocker if you wish to. I do it after 3 buildings.
I think you take a very power centric view about flavor and mechanics. If you were to ask me what the biggest difference between a normal planet and a ringworld, I would say the fact that segments are 5 times the size of normal districts. If you asked me what the strongest aspect of a ring world was, then I'd say the science segment.

You simultaneously complain about the lack of uniqueness, yet also about both of the unique districts being added. "plays like a regular planet (except worse, because no energy districts for organics and no proper mining districts)."

Paring the shattered ring down to be fewer jobs per district was a good move for an origin. At the start of the game, the difference between one segment and two is massive, and a lot of the OPnes came from exploiting that. But even playing normally, if you had a deficit of 10 food you'd need to build a whole new segment giving 10 farmers, far in excess of what's required. Stefan's dealt with this by adding some blockers which reduced the number of jobs per district, but changing planet type (and thus district type) works too. You also don't run into the issue of having to give the planet rare resources in order to build anything.

I'm interested if you think just taking every segment down to 2 jobs per would remove what sets ringworlds apart. You do end up losing the merchant job from commercial segments, but that's because you can't really give 0.4 of a merchant, and merchants are far too strong of a job to be giving out for free. Just clerks is horrible though, so giving an artisan seems like a reasonable compromise to make the district possibly worth building. Personally I'm fine with this move, but if you aren't then your problem is with the district shrinking, NOT the science loss (or rather not just the science loss).

Now, from this point you are trading a non-unique district (habitats have research districts) for a completely unique one (scrap miners). This is adding distinctiveness. Doing the "arithmetic" for lost/gained distinctiveness, you come out even: Lose the merchant, gain scrap miner. I'd make the argument that you gain, considering that scrap miners are fully unique, while you can still get merchants from other sources. Of course, what actually matters is the "feel" of the civic, which differs significantly from person to person and is a much more arbitrary, emotional judgement.


Consider the story that Stellaris tells. Those who originally built the ringworld dedicated massive areas to research, among other things. Dedicated areas for research is unique to Ringworlds and Habitats, ordinary planets don't have that. Now there's a civilization that is on a shattered part of this ringworld (half the size based on the size 25 planet in the screenshot). But a "shattered part" of the ringworld should still have the features of a ringworld, right? Maybe they are districts with 2 jobs instead of segments of 10. Which is fine. So we get the commercial, agriculture and all other districts. We also get the feature to mine the ringworld itself for alloys and minerals. The story is consistent so far. But this civilization on this shattered ringworld, half the size of a regular ringworld, doesn't find absolutely any of the massive areas dedicated to research.
Why? Because paradox wants that players should spend 500 + 400 minerals and 28 months for creating two new researcher jobs, and only having to spend 500 minerals and 16 months would be too OP. Meanwhile Resource Consolidation is allowed to do it for 400 minerals and 12 months and paradox does not consider it OP.
That is the only reason why this civilization on this shattered ringworld, which is able to utilize the commercial, agricultural and every other area of the shattered ringworld, is not able to utilize the research areas at all. This is my complain. It would be immersion breaking and counter intuitive for me to build research labs on a shattered ringworld.

If the origin says it is a shattered ringworld, but excludes the things that sets a ringworld apart from all other planets, then it is just a regular planet dressed in the clothing of a ringworld.
And for what? Balance? The origins have never been about balance, but different stories that can be told. Some are very powerful. Some are very difficult. So what if with 2 job research districts, a ringworld origin will be able to tech faster than other origins. At least the story would be consistent! This is not Dota or starcraft that has to be balanced for multiplayer. In Stellaris, a consistent storytelling has trumped "balance" everywhere you look. Organics can sell minor artifacts for 500 energy a piece, but gestalts can't because of story reasons. And some civics can assimilate captured pops to really snowball, while other can't and must purge them. Even Void Dwellers, in the original post, whose pop growth comes to a crawl 2 decades into the game due to the carrying capacity changes, has not been "balanced".


In regards to relic worlds, I actually do have a complaint, although it's a bit tangential. Origin Relic worlds have no special features. And I don't mean the super fancy stuff like central spire or reactor pits (although they don't have those either). I mean they have features like "Ore veined cliffs" and "green hills". I do agree that removing everything that makes relic worlds special would cause them to lose a lot of their charm. But I care far more about specialty and uniqueness than the actual power given by those things.
What type of special features would you have preferred to see? Have you looked for any mods that extend the origin or add events?
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
Reactions:

Kiwibaum

Second Lieutenant
43 Badges
May 17, 2016
179
128
  • Dungeonland
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • King Arthur II
  • Magicka
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities in Motion 2
Thanks for your reply, by 2 years I meant that you'll have enough minerals after building your first building to clear the blocker if you wish to. I do it after 3 buildings.



Consider the story that Stellaris tells. Those who originally built the ringworld dedicated massive areas to research, among other things. Dedicated areas for research is unique to Ringworlds and Habitats, ordinary planets don't have that. Now there's a civilization that is on a shattered part of this ringworld (half the size based on the size 25 planet in the screenshot). But a "shattered part" of the ringworld should still have the features of a ringworld, right? Maybe they are districts with 2 jobs instead of segments of 10. Which is fine. So we get the commercial, agriculture and all other districts. We also get the feature to mine the ringworld itself for alloys and minerals. The story is consistent so far. But this civilization on this shattered ringworld, half the size of a regular ringworld, doesn't find absolutely any of the massive areas dedicated to research.
Why? Because paradox wants that players should spend 500 + 400 minerals and 28 months for creating two new researcher jobs, and only having to spend 500 minerals and 16 months would be too OP. Meanwhile Resource Consolidation is allowed to do it for 400 minerals and 12 months and paradox does not consider it OP.
That is the only reason why this civilization on this shattered ringworld, which is able to utilize the commercial, agricultural and every other area of the shattered ringworld, is not able to utilize the research areas at all. This is my complain. It would be immersion breaking and counter intuitive for me to build research labs on a shattered ringworld.

If the origin says it is a shattered ringworld, but excludes the things that sets a ringworld apart from all other planets, then it is just a regular planet dressed in the clothing of a ringworld.
And for what? Balance? The origins have never been about balance, but different stories that can be told. Some are very powerful. Some are very difficult. So what if with 2 job research districts, a ringworld origin will be able to tech faster than other origins. At least the story would be consistent! This is not Dota or starcraft that has to be balanced for multiplayer. In Stellaris, a consistent storytelling has trumped "balance" everywhere you look. Organics can sell minor artifacts for 500 energy a piece, but gestalts can't because of story reasons. And some civics can assimilate captured pops to really snowball, while other can't and must purge them. Even Void Dwellers, in the original post, whose pop growth comes to a crawl 2 decades into the game due to the carrying capacity changes, has not been "balanced".



What type of special features would you have preferred to see? Have you looked for any mods that extend the origin or add events?
I completely disagree that origins shouldn't be balanced. Imo they should be both balanced and tell a story. If an origin is overpowered or underpowered it heavily limits diversity in even somewhat competitive multiplayer and even to some degree in singleplayer for some people.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:

PetyaHU

Recruit
103 Badges
Feb 13, 2010
6
5
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Darkest Hour
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
Void Dwellers It is still hard to play. If there are not enough raw materials in the first few systems you are dead... The first habitat is too expensive and consumes too much time. The slower population is not offset by higher production. The opponent (ok if you play with easy ai,but you have to be a masochist on harder difficulty level) colonists 2-3 Planets by the time I pull up a one habitat, and I don't get either the planet bonus or the deposit.(Habitat size 4-8 vs 10-25 planet+feature+planet event and bonus). Too much advantage for the opponent AI not to mention multyplayer.

With not Void Dweller empire i am more efficient since i dont get penality on planet and with Habitability tech + Gene Clinic i have same Habitability on habitat so I really just have to build a Habitat where I need to, and dont need robot or other pop for survive, but if you have to rely on other pops or robots on the planets at least get some bonus for it.

The Void Dwellers weak copy of the Crest of the Stars...

I don't understand why you can't benefit from Extensive Moon System/High Quality Minerals with Habitat??? Though these would be the best to take advantage of with it.

Extra: Why are there no origin traditions? or at least unique technologies for origins?
 

Objulen

Major
40 Badges
Jun 12, 2017
580
532
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sengoku
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Void Dwellers It is still hard to play. If there are not enough raw materials in the first few systems you are dead... The first habitat is too expensive and consumes too much time. The slower population is not offset by higher production. The opponent (ok if you play with easy ai,but you have to be a masochist on harder difficulty level) colonists 2-3 Planets by the time I pull up a one habitat, and I don't get either the planet bonus or the deposit.(Habitat size 4-8 vs 10-25 planet+feature+planet event and bonus). Too much advantage for the opponent AI not to mention multyplayer.

With not Void Dweller empire i am more efficient since i dont get penality on planet and with Habitability tech + Gene Clinic i have same Habitability on habitat so I really just have to build a Habitat where I need to, and dont need robot or other pop for survive, but if you have to rely on other pops or robots on the planets at least get some bonus for it.

The Void Dwellers weak copy of the Crest of the Stars...

I don't understand why you can't benefit from Extensive Moon System/High Quality Minerals with Habitat??? Though these would be the best to take advantage of with it.

Extra: Why are there no origin traditions? or at least unique technologies for origins?

Void Dwellers are a harder mode to play. They'll be a bit easier once the new content is released, assuming any standard empire can get Adaptability traditions. If so, then you can have Void Dwellers who use Orbital Surveying (Adaptability will probably need to be your 2nd Tradition after Expansion and its 20% cost reduction to Habitats) and have decent Dimplomacy to keep themselves safe diplomatically, until they can build up enough alloy production that having a sizable fleet doesn't mean crippling economic growth and research.
 

ankitkumar29

Colonel
63 Badges
Jan 27, 2013
1.017
813
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I completely disagree that origins shouldn't be balanced. Imo they should be both balanced and tell a story. If an origin is overpowered or underpowered it heavily limits diversity in even somewhat competitive multiplayer and even to some degree in singleplayer for some people.
I'm not speaking of balanced origins as opinion, but the game design as it is. Of the 20 or so origins the game offers, I'm curious to know how many you find balanced.
 

PetyaHU

Recruit
103 Badges
Feb 13, 2010
6
5
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Darkest Hour
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
Void Dwellers are a harder mode to play. They'll be a bit easier once the new content is released, assuming any standard empire can get Adaptability traditions. If so, then you can have Void Dwellers who use Orbital Surveying (Adaptability will probably need to be your 2nd Tradition after Expansion and its 20% cost reduction to Habitats) and have decent Dimplomacy to keep themselves safe diplomatically, until they can build up enough alloy production that having a sizable fleet doesn't mean crippling economic growth and research.
Ok, I get it, but the Extensive Moon System/High Quality Minerals/Poor Quality Minerals modifiers why dont give bonus for habitat?
And Habitable planet + habitat why dont give farm district? Why i need other species for planet farming?
In the middle game, it doesn't matter what kind of bonus you get from origin, which should be worth a lot anyway, for by the time you get here you need to have a proper industry. And the 15%bonus for job dont give bonus for secondary bonus like gene center habitability modifier or for noble job amenity bonus or duelist naval cap etc.

sorry my bad enlish, the translator... i don't know how much it gives back what i want to say
 

Objulen

Major
40 Badges
Jun 12, 2017
580
532
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sengoku
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Ok, I get it, but the Extensive Moon System/High Quality Minerals/Poor Quality Minerals modifiers why dont give bonus for habitat?

That's a good question. They probably should - they don't do anything else otherwise.

And Habitable planet + habitat why dont give farm district? Why i need other species for planet farming?

For thematic reasons. Habitats have no natural ecology, so it takes more infrastructure to produce food.

Phototrophic will be a good trait for Void Dwellers.

In the middle game, it doesn't matter what kind of bonus you get from origin, which should be worth a lot anyway, for by the time you get here you need to have a proper industry. And the 15%bonus for job dont give bonus for secondary bonus like gene center habitability modifier or for noble job amenity bonus or duelist naval cap etc.

sorry my bad enlish, the translator... i don't know how much it gives back what i want to say

The 15% bonus is better than you think, but mostly for Alloy/CG production, which don't get many % bonuses. However, it becomes less impactful for base resource production (minerals/energy/food) by mid game. Research bonuses are always nice and double multiplied, so I wouldn't say it's not worthwhile for research either.

The difficulty with balancing Void Dwellers is that you're never really locked into just being a Void Dweller the whole game unless you specifically play it that way - which is kind of the point of the Origin for many players. However, the fact that Xenophile diplomats establish ties with other empires and populate planets with migration treaties means that it's harder balance.

It's almost as if there should be two versions of the Origin - one that will eventually get Xenos to populate planets alongside Orbitals and one that won't.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Ferrus Animus

Captain
Sep 16, 2019
409
939
I completely disagree that origins shouldn't be balanced. Imo they should be both balanced and tell a story. If an origin is overpowered or underpowered it heavily limits diversity in even somewhat competitive multiplayer and even to some degree in singleplayer for some people.

Here's the base conflict: Stellaris is a game that tells stories. It is also a strategy game. With this Shattered Ring rework we see an attempt to balance the origin for the strategy part while completely ruining the story part of it. As a lot of people play it for the story (especially SP given the current state of the AI) and the stories are literally what the game is advertised for both by Paradox and by word of mouth, this is seen as a poor trade by them.

In addition Stellaris is not balanced. Not at all. Unless players employ strategies specifically to mitigate the randomness of the game (like rushing) the biggest factor for the late game power of an empire in every game is the resources near its starting position. The second biggest factor is the amount of space that empire has before it bumps into others. Play any amount of games and this will be true.
For specific strategies the randomness of the tech tree plays also a role, but that is hard to see for other empires.

Stellaris is not balanced. The game spawning 2-3 extra habitable planets near me at the start is better than any origin can do. So making origins boring and standardizing them in the pursuit of balance seems like a fools errand to those of us who like the difference in active gameplay these origins deliver, and makes the game poorer in the stories it tells.
 
  • 5
  • 4Like
Reactions:

Objulen

Major
40 Badges
Jun 12, 2017
580
532
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Magicka 2
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sengoku
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Here's the base conflict: Stellaris is a game that tells stories. It is also a strategy game. With this Shattered Ring rework we see an attempt to balance the origin for the strategy part while completely ruining the story part of it. As a lot of people play it for the story (especially SP given the current state of the AI) and the stories are literally what the game is advertised for both by Paradox and by word of mouth, this is seen as a poor trade by them.

There's nothing about the Shattered Ring changes that ruins the story. It's still a Ring World segment, it's juts broken - which is more realistic for the start - and offers modified starting districts to reflect that.

In addition Stellaris is not balanced. Not at all. Unless players employ strategies specifically to mitigate the randomness of the game (like rushing) the biggest factor for the late game power of an empire in every game is the resources near its starting position. The second biggest factor is the amount of space that empire has before it bumps into others. Play any amount of games and this will be true.
For specific strategies the randomness of the tech tree plays also a role, but that is hard to see for other empires.

Stellaris has some balance, though there is a wide degree of variability and optimized strategies. While some of that inevitable in any game where players have total, build-a-bear control over their species and civilization, it could be streamlined a bit better. However, balance is generally always desirable, unless a challenge is explicitly sought (or explicitly avoided)

Stellaris is not balanced. The game spawning 2-3 extra habitable planets near me at the start is better than any origin can do. So making origins boring and standardizing them in the pursuit of balance seems like a fools errand to those of us who like the difference in active gameplay these origins deliver, and makes the game poorer in the stories it tells.
RNG is never going to be balanced as such. That's more of an argument for a standardized start for players who don't like RNG as a slider in the start game menu.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:

Kiwibaum

Second Lieutenant
43 Badges
May 17, 2016
179
128
  • Dungeonland
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • King Arthur II
  • Magicka
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities in Motion 2
Here's the base conflict: Stellaris is a game that tells stories. It is also a strategy game. With this Shattered Ring rework we see an attempt to balance the origin for the strategy part while completely ruining the story part of it. As a lot of people play it for the story (especially SP given the current state of the AI) and the stories are literally what the game is advertised for both by Paradox and by word of mouth, this is seen as a poor trade by them.

In addition Stellaris is not balanced. Not at all. Unless players employ strategies specifically to mitigate the randomness of the game (like rushing) the biggest factor for the late game power of an empire in every game is the resources near its starting position. The second biggest factor is the amount of space that empire has before it bumps into others. Play any amount of games and this will be true.
For specific strategies the randomness of the tech tree plays also a role, but that is hard to see for other empires.

Stellaris is not balanced. The game spawning 2-3 extra habitable planets near me at the start is better than any origin can do. So making origins boring and standardizing them in the pursuit of balance seems like a fools errand to those of us who like the difference in active gameplay these origins deliver, and makes the game poorer in the stories it tells.
I think you're mixing up balanced with fair here. What I mean is: Before the game starts each civic/ethic and the like should have the same chance of winning. Once the game starts rng comes into factor.

Lets look at machine empires as an example. They have habilitability on all planets reducing the negative impact of rng on them. However this is a large part of their power budged and should be considered when balancing.

This is exactly the same for many card games, where everyone draws randomly from the same cards, so it has to be perfectly balanced even tho there is a randomness to it, which makes single matches often unfair.


And if you feel that the story part of the origin got ruined than that is a valid complain. However blaming balance for it is not the way to go. Rather try to find a suggestion that balances the origin while keeping the story you want intact and write it out as a suggestion in the forum.
If you want unbalanced things there's mods for that. That is exactly what they are for.
 

HFY

Field Marshal
27 Badges
May 15, 2016
3.453
7.191
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Ancient Space
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
IMHO balance is preferable. I have a preference in favor of balanced origins.

But for me distinct playstyle is a necessity. If origins don't feel distinct, then there's no point in having them.

That said, I'm not complaining about the Shattered Ring changes -- yet -- because I haven't played it yet, and don't know if the Lem version is sufficiently distinct-feeling or not.
 

ankitkumar29

Colonel
63 Badges
Jan 27, 2013
1.017
813
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I think you're mixing up balanced with fair here. What I mean is: Before the game starts each civic/ethic and the like should have the same chance of winning. Once the game starts rng comes into factor.
Is that actually your experience in playing Stellaris so far? Fan. Materialist vs Fan. Spiritualist fair? Organics vs Machines both on Ringworld starts fair? Organics vs Machines both on Doomsday starts fair? Scion vs another origin fair? Organics able to sell Minor artifacts for surplus income of tens of thousands of energy credits in the first few decades but Gestalts cannot is fair?
Purifiers/Exterminators can only purge conquered pops while everybody else can utilize conquered pops fair?
Civics that can conquer without claims/influence vs those who cannot fair?
I could go on.
Lets look at machine empires as an example. They have habilitability on all planets reducing the negative impact of rng on them. However this is a large part of their power budged and should be considered when balancing.

This is exactly the same for many card games, where everyone draws randomly from the same cards, so it has to be perfectly balanced even tho there is a randomness to it, which makes single matches often unfair.


And if you feel that the story part of the origin got ruined than that is a valid complain. However blaming balance for it is not the way to go. Rather try to find a suggestion that balances the origin while keeping the story you want intact and write it out as a suggestion in the forum.
If you want unbalanced things there's mods for that. That is exactly what they are for.
 

oreopirate

Second Lieutenant
37 Badges
May 1, 2016
139
137
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
There are many approaches. One is Stefan's perfectly balanced mod, which is quite good. See image. Notice that each research segments has only 5 jobs, but costs twice as many resources as the segment in vanilla. And you can have only two until you repair it with thousands of alloys.
Personally, my form of balance, and Stefan's are nowhere near the same. I have played with that mod, I find that it knee caps the origin too much.

Another could have been a combination of removing the arcane generator, substituting the minerals + rare resources from tile blockers with very expensive blockers just for the rare resources. You might think that only the research segments made it OP, but the arcane generator giving free resources (extra 15 energy per month) and getting 400 minerals + 100 rare resources for only 500 energy credits played it's part.

I should have been more specific. I used different terms for research segments and research districts, but I meant a 2 job/2 housing research district similar to the industrial district.
I agree, the Arcane generator could be removed. Making one wait 5-40 years into the game to get the research segments is a good thing. In my own games, I don't build the segments until I have the resources for them (Including strategic), because my people would have no way of knowing what the arcane generator generates.
Only one problem with research districts, anything in a district is still over powered compared to a building version, hence why void dwellers is also OP.
How does it make sense that a habitable and partially developed ring segment has the same restore cost and prerequisite as the other 2 shattered segments?
Also, it is a matter of utility. Why would be the utility of spending 10000 alloys on an already functioning planet to get a ringworld? For comparison, restoring a relic world to an ecumenopolis costs 15000 minerals, but not only does it give a much larger planet with bigger districts, it gives +50% pop growth AND 20% resource output. A machine world or hive world give +1 pop assembly job (effectively +33% pop growth) AND 10% resource output and cost only 10000 energy credits.
What does the 4 times more expensive ringworld give you? Nothing except larger districts, but due to pop growth changes, you'd be very lucky if you can even fill half of it.
Does it make sense? No. But neither does FTL, so that just comes to a difference of how far suspension of disbelief should go.
What is the utility? Well, Relic and Ecumenopolis don't make food. A single Ringworld segment with Agri districts can feed a massive chunk of the galaxy. If you are a megacorp, or just focusing on trade value for whatever reason, A ringworld is unparalleled.
As for hives, if you can't/ don't want to build a dyson sphere, the generator segment would be the largest source of energy in the game. Machine world generators give 3 housing and 2 jobs. Ringworld gives +10 housing, +10 tech drone.
You know that they included pop growth settings in the game set up, right? When set correctly, they essentially give you Pre 3.0 growth.

By the time you get Mega Engineering to restore it, you'd already be between 1-2k research per month and the planet would already be filled with advanced research complexes. You'd spend 10k alloys to restore it, just to get another research district with 10 jobs that takes 40-50 years to fill due to the pop growth rate? It is important to have this context - 10 jobs after 80-100 years would take 40-50 years to fill, unless you are doing silly pop resettlement shenanigans. I would have a different view if pop growth didn't slow down based on total pops in empire.
Again, they added those settings in the set up and you can tweak them to remove the abritary Empire pop thing (Personally, I would it on a planetary scale, and the total empire thing sucks, but with the scaler in, I'm happy).

At the end of the day, the origins are not just about balance, but also tell a story. ME doomsday with crazy bonuses to everything except research and unity for 40 years is not balanced. Resource consolidation with +1 pop assembly jobs (effectively +33% pop growth in comparison to any other start) AND all building slots open is not balanced. Scion is not balanced. Galactic doorstep is not balanced. Doomsday for organics is not balanced.
What grates me about the new shattered ring changes is the faux story. You are now on a shattered subsection of a ringworld. All the segments of a ringworld will now have a 2 job district equivalent, which will upgrade to segments once you restore the shattered ring. Except research districts. The shattered ring that your empire resides on has usable remains of all other district types except the research one. Not because it fits the narrative or tells a story. But because devs want to artificially slow down research, and that means build a city district first and then build a lab for double the time and mineral cost.
Alright...
1) This a paradox game, meaning that 90% of the story is player headcannon. Same with CKIII.
2) When they first came out with the origins, they even said that they were storytelling devices, and were not supposed to be balanced.
3) This is a faux story? If you have been on a ringworld long enough to evolve a ringworld preference, and the ringworld has been without maintenance for several million years. You think it will still be in good shape?
4) Research districts are OP. This is a fact. Adding Research Districts to a shattered ring would essentially make this a stronger void dweller start. Becoming weaker than VD by mid-game
 

Ferrus Animus

Captain
Sep 16, 2019
409
939
I think you're mixing up balanced with fair here. What I mean is: Before the game starts each civic/ethic and the like should have the same chance of winning. Once the game starts rng comes into factor.
As someone else has said that assumption is wrong already.

But also I didn't call it balance. I called it an attempt at balance.
There's different kinds of balances, and even if we go into the part where everythign is smilar on all levels, there's symetric balance and asymetric balance.

Stellaris is a game that be it hyperdrives, weapon choices, origins often tries the asymetric approach, and that's a big part of the draw. Yet asymetric balance is harder than symetric. Shattered Ring for one is asymetrically unbalanced. As is Scion, as is Doomsday, as is Necrophage.

This design makes the Shattered Ring origin much more symetric. Instead of an actual Ringworld, with a hard limit on jobs until you manage to get the necessary strategic resources incoming (if we forgo the market), that has troubles fueling expansion and military early on, we now have a "Ringworld" that behaves like a planet in pretty much every aspect. You build housing, industrial, mining and farming districts as normal, but your energy district is now a trade district (which means similarly or less efficient until you take the mercantile tradition) and you get some bonus minerals and alloys on the mining one. Also in the alte game you get a slight dicount on a ringworld.

This is more symetric, probably still not balanced but plays much more like all the other origins. I find that highly undesirable.
And given the bad balance the AI has always had, the factor of the RNG outscaling every origin so far, I find it a rather bad trade to make an origin blander and more boring to "rebalance" it (dev diary word choice).
 

Kiwibaum

Second Lieutenant
43 Badges
May 17, 2016
179
128
  • Dungeonland
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • King Arthur II
  • Magicka
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities in Motion 2
Is that actually your experience in playing Stellaris so far? Fan. Materialist vs Fan. Spiritualist fair? Organics vs Machines both on Ringworld starts fair? Organics vs Machines both on Doomsday starts fair? Scion vs another origin fair? Organics able to sell Minor artifacts for surplus income of tens of thousands of energy credits in the first few decades but Gestalts cannot is fair?
Purifiers/Exterminators can only purge conquered pops while everybody else can utilize conquered pops fair?
Civics that can conquer without claims/influence vs those who cannot fair?
I could go on.
I never said that stellaris is balanced well yet. This also isn't stopping me from saying that it probably should be. It is also why I used the word "should" in my initial statement.

As someone else has said that assumption is wrong already.

But also I didn't call it balance. I called it an attempt at balance.
There's different kinds of balances, and even if we go into the part where everythign is smilar on all levels, there's symetric balance and asymetric balance.

Stellaris is a game that be it hyperdrives, weapon choices, origins often tries the asymetric approach, and that's a big part of the draw. Yet asymetric balance is harder than symetric. Shattered Ring for one is asymetrically unbalanced. As is Scion, as is Doomsday, as is Necrophage.

This design makes the Shattered Ring origin much more symetric. Instead of an actual Ringworld, with a hard limit on jobs until you manage to get the necessary strategic resources incoming (if we forgo the market), that has troubles fueling expansion and military early on, we now have a "Ringworld" that behaves like a planet in pretty much every aspect. You build housing, industrial, mining and farming districts as normal, but your energy district is now a trade district (which means similarly or less efficient until you take the mercantile tradition) and you get some bonus minerals and alloys on the mining one. Also in the alte game you get a slight dicount on a ringworld.

This is more symetric, probably still not balanced but plays much more like all the other origins. I find that highly undesirable.
And given the bad balance the AI has always had, the factor of the RNG outscaling every origin so far, I find it a rather bad trade to make an origin blander and more boring to "rebalance" it (dev diary word choice).
The other person never said anything about that my assumption that stellaris should be balanced is wrong in their reply to my text. They said it is currently not balanced. But it is implied by their post I replied to, to begin with that they don't think it should be balanced.

Also I never even said anything about symmetric vs asymetric balance. Actually I am much bigger fan of asymmetric balance and know it is harder.

I also never said I agree with the way the origin was balanced. My post you replied to was just to say that I think that balancing origins is somewhat important.