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Stellaris Dev Diary #22 - Alliances and Federations

Greetings fellow gamers!

The topic for today is “Alliances and Federations”. Now, we have modelled alliances quite differently in most of our games. In Crusader Kings II, for example, alliances are bilateral, and allies are (since the last patch) automatically dragged into wars with no option of opting out and breaking the alliance. In Europa Universalis IV, alliances are also bilateral, but you can decline a “Call to Arms” at the cost of Prestige. In Stellaris, alliances are multilateral (they can have any number of members, not just two), and are thus more like NATO and less like the complex web of mutual agreements that existed at the outbreak of the Great War. This means that members of an alliance need a greater say in matters that concern the entire alliance, notable declarations of war (and some things are simply not allowed if you are an alliance member, such as guarantees of independence.)

If I am a member of an alliance in Stellaris and I want to declare a war, all the other members of the alliance need to approve. This ties back to what I talked about in the dev diary two weeks ago; if the goals I declare with the war are only beneficial to myself, my allies are of course less likely to approve. Therefore, I will likely have to dicker with the war goals in order to satisfy all of my allies (depending on their opinions and strategic concerns, naturally.) Of course, members can always just leave an alliance (while at peace) if it won’t permit them to achieve their goals.

stellaris_dev_diary_22_01_20160222_allience_opinion_of_war.jpg


If an alliance works well, however, the members can instead choose to deepen their cooperation and form a Federation. There are pros and cons to this choice. Alliances can be paralyzed by vetoes from the member states, but a Federation is governed by a single President who has the power to act with impunity. On the other hand, the presidency rotates between the member states, so for long periods members will have little control over their foreign policy. Federation members also share victory, which might be a problem for certain types of players…

Another interesting feature of Federations is that they have a special joint space navy in addition to the forces of the separate member empires. The Federation president gets to design these ship templates using all the best technologies of all the member empires. The president also gets to control these fleets, of course. As a rule of thumb, several fairly equally matched empires might want to form a Federation, especially in the face of aggressive, significantly larger neighbors, but it might not be the best idea for empires who are dominant in their own right. Of course, there is also an element of role-playing to the choice…

stellaris_dev_diary_22_02_20160222_federation.jpg


That’s all for now. Next week’s topic is Multiplayer!
 
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THis DD raised more questions than it answered. Was rather hoping to see the devs answer some of the more prominent and important questions by now
 
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Ornlu Wolfjarl

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I think it's fantastic: an anti-blobbing mechanism baked into the gameplay so it's seamless and therefore doesn't feel punitive. The games are at their most fun when you're actively contending for domination, and much less fun when you're simply steamrolling over everyone in your path (though if you've built up to that point it's quite enjoyable to enjoy your hard-earned dominance ^_^), so a legitimate challenge that lets you know that you're the big dog in town (with all the satisfaction that brings) but at the same time you still have to strive to expand is a great addition.

I see its merits, but I think Paradox needs to do better when coming up with antiblobbing mechanics. Forced systems, that leave you with little choice, or rather variety if you prefer, are certainly not a step in the right direction. Coalitions from EU4 could be expanded upon and made more intricate. Alliances need to be multifaceted and with different purposes. They need to be divided into defensive and aggressive alliances, and they need to have varying scopes. For example a defensive alliance against a particular enemy, or a defensive alliance against multiple enemies, or a defensive alliance against any enemies. There needs to be some sort of diplomatic built up before each alliance type can be achieved, and thus these alliances and subsequently building federations out of them need to happen more organically, just like it's presented in nearly every sci-fi movie, series or book out there. Babylon 5 comes to mind as a prime example. Every race on that station had their own goals and prejudices, usually fighting each other too. When they had to unite against a common foe, it didn't happen overnight. It took a lot of work, and they still had disagreements and infighting. Then they fought this common foe and partially succeeded, and they were a bit more united, but two of the major powers were still at each other's throats, with one of them outright destroying the other's homeworld. Then they worked through it by helping a third member of their ragtag alliance deal with a civil war. Then they had to deal with a massive galactic crisis. And only after all this did they become a truly united alliance and later a federation. See my point? There were steps, and not everyone agreed, and certainly no one had the power of Liberum Veto. I don't like seeing gameplay mechanics (that could be made better) to eat at roleplaying.

Now, the method proposed in the DD, besides being easily exploitable, as I commented before, places too much trust in the AI to have the correct behavior, and I don't care how competent Wiz is (which he is), we still don't have the technology to make an AI that can make intuitive and smart decisions, and certainly not an AI that can't be easily fooled or gamed by a human player. Each alliance member has an unreasonable amount of veto power that is both unrealistic and illogical. To put it in D&D terms, it's like the game assumes we either want to play a lawful good empire or a chaotic evil empire. There's no in between. Pursuing wars your allies don't like shouldn't be outright prohibited. It should incur penalties probably, but not made impossible. This is a very big change from the way previous Paradox titles have done things, which gave the player enough freedom to shape their own path.

Also, the solution shouldn't be that you can leave the alliance and rejoin it later, and neither should it be that if the other members don't like what you are doing, that they can just up and leave the alliance/federation and reform it again. There should be mechanisms to kick members out of alliances/federations if enough members vote for it. Wars shouldn't be stopped on the whims of one member out of five for example. If the other 4 want to pursue war, the remaining one then should just choose to not participate.

There has always been this argument that blobbing is bad and leads to boring gameplay. The obvious solution is that the player should refrain from engaging in blobbing, but they don't. Why? Because the alternative is never enjoyable. Except in CK2, which offers enough distractions for the player and things to do, that being at war hardly makes a difference, beyond changing the pace of the game to break the monotony. This is what Paradox should be focusing on, instead of overtly trying to punish blobbing. Stellaris already seems to achieve that with how science and reconnaissance works. They need to work more on that. Instead the last 2 DDs gave us some features that would be excellent as options but are restrictive and terrible as forced core mechanics, at least in my own opinion.
 
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Of course other factions in the alliance would be annoyed. That's what negative diplomatic modifiers are for. Instead this game system basically says that Iceland could have vetoed the Iraq War just because it's in NATO. It's ridiculous.

*Sigh!* That would have been AMAZING ... I think you're on to something, and don't realize it.
 
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For release, it will most likely be rotation only.
Perhaps a system allowing members to vote for the President? This would allow an effective and popular leader (player ;)) to remain in control for longer.
 
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The Fungoid Federation waits for the optimal time to unleash its spores upon an unsuspecting galaxy.
 

hsuzy1987

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Good DD, guess I hoped for a little more on the federation bit but the potential is there I think. The basic idea behind it is promising at least. Hopefully DLCs do it justice, and also justify the price we'll have to pay
 

hsuzy1987

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They need to be divided into defensive and aggressive alliances, and they need to have varying scopes.

Maybe a step below alliance? Call it a pact. Fewer restrictions, and limited to whatever war you're going to prosecute.
 
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TheDungen

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You should definitely consider taking basic political science courses before keeping on this subject, you're mixing concepts in every single one of your posts, and everything you say don't hold by the simple fact that you seem to be unaware of the consensual definitions of specific terms according to the political scientists.

The main core of your argument is just false, there is no opposition between nation state and federal state. A Nation State is "a form of political organization in which a group of people who share the same history, traditions, or language live in a particular area under one government". This government can be centralised or federal, it can have a long history of slow building, it doesn't matter. Germany is a federal nation state, while switzerland is a federal state, but not a nation state, and France is a centralised nation state. You are drawing boundaries where there is none. "Nation State" refers to the nature of a government, "Federal" or "centralized" refers to how this government is organised. There is no link at all between the two

And please, use better sources to back your claims than documentaries, they are rarely of any scientific value. Use peer-reviewed articles if you want to make a credible point. You can do a research on google scholar for that.
My point is that the original sorting of the world into nationstates and empires (single versus multi ethnical) would mean that countries such as the US would have to be considered an empire (not a nation state as he wrongly asserts), which has some problematic complications, which is why I use the term federal state, because it is a nation formed around a federal system, I'm not saying nationstates can't have a federal structure but at the end of the day they weren't formed around the concept of the nationstate while countries like Russia and Germany definatly were despite having a decentrlaised federal structure (and one could easily argue that russia is in fact an empire).
My division into federal state versus empire versus nationstate relates to the formation of the state, not it's current political system (though the former ofcourse ffects the latter).

So if you have a better term for what the US is (And the federalist elements of the EU is striving to be) then please shoot, but as I see it both nationstate and empire are inadequate.

That said I think we can agree on the diffrence between a federation and a federal state. And that Stellaris does in fact use the word federation correctly, (I would hold that confederation is one end of the sprectrum of federations while federal state is the other end).

And a nationstate is not the nature of the government it's the uniting principle of the state. A nationstate is united by it's ethnic ties, while we are increasingly seeing nations tied togehter more by their constitutions and legal framework, both federations turned to states like the US but also since the old nationstates have abandoned the monoethnic ideas that first caused them to coalesce into states (or in some cases reform from kingdoms and empires).
I guess I could use legal state or constitutional state to diffrentiate these from nation states. You could use the term multinational state I guess but that implies that nationstate is the norm which it in world history is in fact not. In fact more nation states seem to have arisen from the states creating the natios (peoples) than from natios coalescing into states.
 
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Maybe a step below alliance? Call it a pact. Fewer restrictions, and limited to whatever war you're going to prosecute.
Alliance of convenience? Strange bedfellow?
 

grumphie

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Probably so you cant go on a warmongering rampage and be part of an strong alliance of not-expansionist nations to protect you from reconquests or coalitions, while not having to give your alliance members anything. This would prevent situations like in eu4 where you ally, say, a strong france, spain, austria and poland and conquer absolutly everything around you with no fear of ae since your allies will prevent any coalition from forming, while not calling them in any wars so they dont get anything.
Ally someone with similiar goals like yours without causing friction, or go alone, no cheap exploits of alliances.

i get that - taht's why you still have to ask permission to go fight it on your won. it's more meant for the edge cases where your allies might not want to participate in the war(i.e. target only has one planet) but wouldnt mind you conquering it.
 
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Kayden_II

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the presidency rotates between the member states,
I love the Idea of a "Federation", but I'm not happy with the AI-Control, because to lead a Federation is not this Kind of repetetive (boring) Stuff, like "Fly to EVERY System/Planet/Moon, to look for their Names/Types/Sizes/Specials (Exploration)" or "Colonization-Spam to EVERY Planet/Moon, to initiate their (automated) Process of Population-Breeding, to exploit their Basic-Production/Research (Expand)" or "Construction of Buildings in EVERY Planet/Moon, to increase their Basic-Production/Research (Exploit)" ...

In the Case, I'm assuming correct ...
A Species (Pre-Sentinent) in Dev-Diary-14 and a Primitive Civilization (Pre-FTL) in Dev-Diary-13 has NOT the Ability for Foreign-(Space)-Policy ...
A Protectorate (FTL, but under-developed (Tech)) in DD-19, a Vassal in DD-19 and an Administrative Sector in DD-21 has NO Foreign-(Space)-Policy and They can not leave (without my Consent or an Independence-War) my Empire, because I'm their Over-Lord ...

Why not rule the Federation, WITHOUT that "Presidency-Rotation", BUT ...
1. My F.-Members can leave (without my Consent or an Independence-War) the F., but to avoid It, I have to keep my F.-Members "happy", Which is a specific Opinion-Value ...
1.1. The (nearly) same/different Ethos, Government and Domestic-Policy gives an Opinion-Bonus/Malus ...
1.2. I can bribe my F.-Members with Energy-Credits, Minerals, Rare Ressources and with the 3. Ressource-Type, Which is "Political Influence ???", to increase their Opinion ...
2. Every F.-Member (My Empire and the other F.-Empires, too) has an own Fleet, but We can use the best Techs of all F.-Members ...
3. I must do a COOPERATED Foreign-Policy, Which means, that for every Foreign-Policy, I Need the "OK" from my (happy) F.-Members ...
3.1. Foreign-Policy: Alliance/Non-Aggression-Pact, War/Peace, Independence-Guarantee/Support, Border-Access/Information-Exchange with other Empires/Federations ... (Dev-Diary 19) ...
3.2. Free-for-All-Foreign-Policy: Insulting/Relation-Improving and Trade-Deals (for Energy-Credits, Minerals and Rare Ressources), but the F.-Members favor - Each Other ...
3.3. No more possible Foreign-Policy: Tributary and Offer/Demand Vassalization, but every F.-Member can still handle with a Species (Pre-Sentinent), to make It to a Primitive-Civilization (Pre-FTL), to make It to a Protectorate, to make It to a Vassal, to make It a Part of their Empires ...

This should even functions in Multi-Player, caused by the COOPERATED Foreign-Policy ...

And Again, I really like a Federation-Feature, but the AI-Control (to lead the Federation) is not good ...
 
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persovs

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Ok here's my opinion,
Declaring a war when in an alliance should only require the majority of the alliance members to agree (51%), separate wars should also be allowed but should also require a majority of the alliance members to agree, alliance members should mostly not care if youre attacking a OPM (one planet minor) and just say yes exept if they have a special interest in that OPM (if they want to vassalize or exploit the OPM).
There is ofc a problem to the majority thing, is that one person of the alliance maybe doesnt get anything if they win but have to join, this can be solved in a couple of ways tho

also on a sidenote there should be planets (like earth) were the is no dominant power that you can help grow to power
 
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Yenzen

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Ok here's my opinion,
Declaring a war when in an alliance should only require the majority of the alliance members to agree (51%), separate wars should also be allowed but should also require a majority of the alliance members to agree, alliance members should mostly not care if youre attacking a OPM (one planet minor) and just say yes exept if they have a special interest in that OPM (if they want to vassalize or exploit the OPM).

also on a sidenote there should be planets (like earth) were the is no dominant power that you can help grow to power

I think this pretty implicitly happens when you uplift or con a race into joining your cause, especially when it's in the atomic age. In order for it to be able to join you as a collective unit, the technology you provided likely helped the major factions of that race to gain global dominance by war... or just by solving pretty much all of their species' technological problems in a matter of few months/years.
 

Artess

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For release, it will most likely be rotation only.
I hope eventually it'll become a deeper system with proper elections, campaigning and other interesting details.
As long as it's not simple and weird like the EU4 parliaments.
I do hope AI allies won't sit idly by in a war they agreed to...
Space England, you say?
Eh no I am calling russia not a federation becuse a federation is between states, while russia is a centralised state, they could ofcourse claim to be a federal state (that is a former federation that centralised into a centralised state, like the US) but then again they never were a federation, they were an empire, centralised by the military power of the tsars, then a "union" and then decided that despite fulfilling every criteria for a nationstate that they are a federation.
You might be confusing a federation with a confederation.
Don't really like the sound of those alliances. They sound way too similar to federations which I wasn't really planning on playing much, if ever anyway. Hope it's not too difficult to be powerful enough to go it alone. And as for federations I don't really like the idea that the presidency rotates, would be nice if there was an option to vote for who the leader added at some point. Might be more fun to actually play then, at the moment it seems like you're just giving up on a huge part of the game and letting someone else/the ai decide what you're doing which doesn't sound fun. Having more ways to get and then keep the leadership would give more incentive to actually join a federation IMO.
I'm sure it'll be possible to go on your own. Hopefully the espionage will be better than in EU4 and you'll be able, with cunning scheming, to prevent your enemies from forming alliances against you.
You cant have your cake and eat it.
But why? What if I want my cake? And if I have it, why can't I eat it? I'm confused. I want cake.
I hope the way war works for federated members is similar to counts under a king in CKII when there is low crown authority. You can attack outside of your country and not expect the aid of the king but if they attack the country the whole country is involved.
Maybe it would be like that for alliances, as federations seem to be more united than alliances.
 
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Okawoa

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First just to get out the way.
(and one could easily argue that russia is in fact an empire

tumblr_n9ij0ekQmc1setsv8o1_400.gif
Now I'm happy with federation rotations. It feels good to take the backseat once in a while. What I'm a little irksome about is this Power-ranger alliance system - I think you should be able to pursue solo wars in an alliance but at a relations cost and a threat of being kicked out. I.E. China non-aligned states; USA NATO Why not have different types of alliances: 50%, 80% or 100% agreement option alliances. Sitting out wars should be possible but at a horrible relation cost + possible kicking out.
 
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For everyone that doesn't like how a Federation or Alliance is a pact between peers because they want to be the one in charge all the time: have you considered that what you seem to actually want are a network of vassals?
 
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