Stellaris Dev Diary #219 - Selectable Traditions

[Kaoru Sen'nin]

Certainly cool, but it would be very difficult and time-consuming to balance properly.

Could you enlight us a bit about why sometimes something as important as a policy or a stance is locked in a tree and sometimes it's only very small bonuses that would hardly matter ? Is there an internale debate in the team on that matter which would explain the discrepancy ?

I feel like the team is hesitating between "Tradition should just be small boost" and "Tradition should impact the gameplay".

It's not even spread between the traditions.
Subterfuge is just a few minor bumps there and here while Discovery has an edit and +1 research option (not a stat boost but increase player agency).

Subterfuge could leads to better operations or something.

Also none of the Traditions unlock a special building. That could be something to explore instead of just +x% somewhere

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Just a thought, but would people like it if most edicts where locked behind tradition picks?

Seems thematically apt both as a way of defining your empire and for spiritualist (who get unity benefits and edicts cost reductions). I can only see edicts gained for starting ethics being excluded and ‘subsidies’ based ones remaining as is, but otherwise taking edict unlocks away from tech and putting them in the tradition trees would make some sense.

 

[Ninjamestari]

I feel like the team is hesitating between "Tradition should just be small boost" and "Tradition should impact the gameplay".

That is the eternal balancing act of game design, you make your feature too weak and it becomes inconsequential and boring, make it too powerful and it breaks the game. There is very narrow road to walk when it comes to these sorts of decisions and that hesitation is a mark that at least PDX is *trying* to walk that narrow path. I'm not going to claim they've succeeded but they are obviously trying.

 

[Dragatus]

Certainly cool, but it would be very difficult and time-consuming to balance properly.

How about if ethic could give you discounts on buying certain traditions? Like materialists have cheaper Discovery and authoritarians have cheaper Domination. Though that might need new coding to be implemented, so yeah.

 

[Onimorphus]

This sounds like the difference between what I think of as a full strategy gamer and a tactical/operational gamer. The second one likes questions that amount to "how (best) should I achieve this (predefined) aim?"; the first one likes to ask themselves the (to me, far more interesting) questions "What do I want to be?" or "What ought I achieve?" or even "What sort of world/galaxy do I want to make happen?" There seems to ba a fairly constant thread of contention between these two, espacially in these fora - possibly because Paradox games can lend themselves to either style.

Yeah, and on Stellaris it gets even more complicated, as the game is marketed as being a mix of RTS, 4X and Grand Strategy, so both the 'win conditions' and 'balance' part of the game get very divergent opinions from the mix of different 'audiences'. When you consider other Paradox games, those aspects are way more secondary, with all the asymmetry on the start of the game, and the overall nature of them (what exactly is wining a crusader kings game in the end? XD)

Now I don't play multiplay, so I'm not sure if having more 'victory conditions' would change much how people are playing, but at least would give some more... 'in-game justification' (for a lack of a better way to express it)... to build empires without having the 'map painting job' as part of the plans, if looking at a time limited score based game... (that's more based on my experience playing with other 4X games with friends, doing 'just score' time runs on CIV is a oddly funny experience... I can see it working well on Stellaris, with some adjustments on how score is calculated)

 

[Onimorphus]

I'm going to echo the idea of making ascension paths into actual *paths*, where you take the Perk to unlock a new unique tradition tree, and then the tree's finisher gives you the second perk's benefits (more or less). Each path gets some benefits earlier and some later than they otherwise would, and may get some new benefits to cover gaps.

I'm more inclined to have 1 tradition tree for each first accession perk (as I have posted before) to flesh out the option of an empire just getting the first perk, and then the second perk unlocking a 'become the criss' like type of progression, towards the accession end goal.

Something like this (some very rough ideas) :

Engineered Evolution: Unlocks a cloning focused tradition tree (buffs cloned troops, bio-pops assembly, maybe special types of 'clone' traits or polices, could have even more interesting effects based on clone stuff of today dev diary teaser ^^)

Evolutionary Mastery: Unlock 'become the crisis' like progression towards becoming a organic-tech empire (objectives to study and/or purge different species pops, biome type worlds and the like, unlocks using food to create buildings and ships, convert pops between different species, more trait point and limits?)


The Flesh is Weak: Unlock a cyborg focused tradition tree (buffs cyborg armies, pops, maybe allows for cyborg pop assembly or robots-to-cyborg conversion, finisher could allow to mix robot and biologic traits on cyborg pops?)

Synthetic Evolution: Unlocks 'become the crisis' like progression towards conversion to Synth Pops and massive automation (options to gradually convert pops to machines, build special automated jobless structures, a way to 'digitalize' pops minds?, with some special traits and no/little maintenance and housing needs, 'going to live the the cloud/cyberspace' vibe, maybe some special interactions with machine empires? )


Mind over Matter: Would give the Psionic trait (psi-path need some buffing, maybe turn Latent psionic to a expensive normal trait? or origin?), unlocks a psionic related tradition tree (special psionic pop building/jobs, stuff related to spy/intel, may some interaction with hiveminds?)

Transcendence: Unlocks 'become the crisis' like progression towards breaching the Shroud (objective of focusing part of your psi pops to breach the shroud, build related stuff for the process, maybe use zro as a relevant resource for the process?, have more control over the random shroud events, shroud based techs, maybe have pops partially ascend / world become shroud-veiled)


Right now the accession paths are a little too straight forward, you do a special project and *puff*, all your pops are synths, or psionic, or hyper-buff-big-brain-super-people... Using the idea of the 'Become the Crisis' perk (the points progression and gradual unlocks) would make the process more interesting, and have the potential to add intermediary events occurring during the process, like factions revolting and other empires reacting to what you are doing (as we have in a very small scale now with the mega-structures events)

 

[kwheeler]

Using the idea of the 'Become the Crisis' perk (the points progression and gradual unlocks) would make the process more interesting, and have the potential to add intermediary events occurring during the process, like factions revolting and other empires reacting to what you are doing (as we have in a very small scale now with the mega-structures events)

I'm not sure I follow the last bit. What "mega-structure events" are you thinking of here?

 

[Kaoru Sen'nin]

That is the eternal balancing act of game design, you make your feature too weak and it becomes inconsequential and boring, make it too powerful and it breaks the game. There is very narrow road to walk when it comes to these sorts of decisions and that hesitation is a mark that at least PDX is *trying* to walk that narrow path. I'm not going to claim they've succeeded but they are obviously trying.

Better having strong Tradition that actually makes you wonder if you should rush tech or traditions than just everything being underwheilming.

Tradition should change HOW to play.

The Unyeilding tradition could have "Unlock X weapon slot for platforme defense". So starbase are not garbage after the midgame and you can really go full ultimate turtle defense mode.

Mercantile could unlock an edict to boost trade value the more commercial pact you have (or something).

Subterfuge could have better operations unlocked instead of a measly +× somewhere that doesn't actually makes you play differently.

Domination could unlock "Hegemony" federation and give the "Bring into Hegemony" CB so that you can start working on that ASAP if you want.

Those are just wild idea. Maybe they are dumb but at least to me it is way more compelling and fun than just a tiny little boost on some modifiers that barely matter.

 

[Ninjamestari]

Yeah, and on Stellaris it gets even more complicated, as the game is marketed as being a mix of RTS, 4X and Grand Strategy, so both the 'win conditions' and 'balance' part of the game get very divergent opinions from the mix of different 'audiences'. When you consider other Paradox games, those aspects are way more secondary, with all the asymmetry on the start of the game, and the overall nature of them (what exactly is wining a crusader kings game in the end? XD)

Now I don't play multiplay, so I'm not sure if having more 'victory conditions' would change much how people are playing, but at least would give some more... 'in-game justification' (for a lack of a better way to express it)... to build empires without having the 'map painting job' as part of the plans, if looking at a time limited score based game... (that's more based on my experience playing with other 4X games with friends, doing 'just score' time runs on CIV is a oddly funny experience... I can see it working well on Stellaris, with some adjustments on how score is calculated)

This is one of those, "try to please everyone and you end up pleasing no one" situations. They should pick a genre and stick to it; I liked Stellaris a LOT more back when it was just a 4x without trying to be a goddamn grand strategy. I just recently played a couple of games with a 1.9 client and I can't remember the last time I had so much fun with Stellaris or got sucked into the game so profoundly. There just was something magical about the game back then that is sadly lacking today.

 

[Airvh]

Subterfuge (added to Nemesis)

While playing the game I've found myself not paying as much attention to Subterfuge overall. Not the skill but the whole hacking other races and doing things like that.

I suggest adding maybe once a year a report that shows up saying how things have been going in Subterfuge. If your people have noticed anything weird going on and suggestions.

Maybe even make it funny, "The scientist Joe Blow has noticed his printer has been printing double copies but he didn't bother fixing it, he just threw extras in the trash and it was emptied each night by the nice Romulan Janitor!"

 

[Anemetius]

so just another bland, boring modifiers that only change some %, nothing unique or special, yea, thx for nothing.

 

[evilcat]

Idea:
Can we get the Tradition that really SUCKS?
...pops from other empires using this fancy migration mechanic.

There are chillboys wanting to cityskylines their empire with some migration pacts, so give them the tradition. Peacufull gameplay, more egalitarian side, creating paradise in space is the main theme.
Sample perks:
+5 happiness if at peace
+5habitability +10% output if 100% habitability
-50% cost/time of terraform
influence discount on migration pacts and ringword construction
clerks are giving more amenities
extra pull on migration depending on happiness
can free slaves from slave market
can declare war of let my people go (free slaves from slaver empires)
pops take less housing
basic (non city) district generate 1 more job
unemplyed generate more trade value or ammenity
- turning slavery on (or purification) makes everyone unhappy
can smuggle people from slaver empire using intel

General theme: Peace, Migration, Ringworlds, Gaia, Paradise, so much pops on so little space, cmdr Shepard dream.

 

[HFY]

can free slaves from slave market

Isn't that automatic?

E.g. if I buy slaves and the default lifestyle is "Full Citizen", they appear on the planet already free.

basic (non city) district generate 1 more job

This would be brutal.

 

[Onimorphus]

I'm not sure I follow the last bit. What "mega-structure events" are you thinking of here?

Going from memory, there are the generic temporary bonus/malus to the construction speed that happens randomly, for Dyson Sphere there is one that another empire will demand 'reparations', as you are encasing the main star of a significant constellation to their culture, the Ringworld has one about some intrusive critters on one of the artificial biomes that are being created, and the Science Nexus has some quest lines that pop up some time after completion (one of then was about integrating one of your scientists brain into its network)... I guess there may be some more but I don't remember or haven't seen.

 

[Onimorphus]

Better having strong Tradition that actually makes you wonder if you should rush tech or traditions than just everything being underwheilming.

What makes this worse is, when you go over the whole partial 'dualism' of Research vs Unity that the game proposes (going by the buffs of the Spiritualist - Materialist ethics axis, and both competing for the same resources usage), you have to look at what uses research and unity have, and currently, unity is used only on traditions (and unlocking ascension perks by consequence) and the unity ambitions.

We are comparing the whole tech tree (and all it unlocks), with the 35 traditions picks that we have, plus the 8 perks during most of the games, if we consider that both the tech repeatables and the unity ambitions are the 'late game sinks' for both this resources (the comparison is not that straight forward, but seems approximate enough).

It's easy to see why a lot of people consider the traditions effects quite weak when the most impactful choices involving Unity during most of the game are the ascension perks, and even then, many of the strongest ones are also gated behind tech, or require/unlock subsequent research/special projects.

Now we still don't know what changes the Devs are planning (or have already implemented/decided and are keeping for future dev diaries) for Unity usage, but right now it's quite clear how research ends up being by far more relevant over a normal game, on the simple matter of the choices and uses (and lack of both) that we have for it.

 

[Onimorphus]

This is one of those, "try to please everyone and you end up pleasing no one" situations. They should pick a genre and stick to it; I liked Stellaris a LOT more back when it was just a 4x without trying to be a goddamn grand strategy. I just recently played a couple of games with a 1.9 client and I can't remember the last time I had so much fun with Stellaris or got sucked into the game so profoundly. There just was something magical about the game back then that is sadly lacking today.

Yeah, overall 1.9 was one of most (if not the most) well rounded moment of the game systems development, but honestly even then the game already suffered from the game design dilemmas of being a 'hybrid game'. The game economy was simpler, the AI looked like it could handle it better as consequence, but the whole war aspect was still quite messy (even though I miss the FTL variation, it did mess up the fleet engagements and war dynamic a lot), and balance was always a problematic topic.

I personally like that they decided go more toward the 'grand strategy' side of the spectrum, because going this way its easier to implement more interesting mechanics and double down in the customization/sandbox aspect of the game. I still believe there is a lot that need to be improved (the quasi-total lack of a 'internal politics' system beyond the vestigial 'factions' mechanic we have right now, the military aspect of the game still being quite wonky, even when around half the tech tree is dedicated to military tech, diplomacy getting better over time but still being somewhat limited...).

There are a few good 4X space games already around on the market, instead of Stellaris trying to headbutt them on their field, I think its better to focus on what makes it different, maybe once we have the most lacking aspects of the game more fleshed out, try to have some 'scenarios' game mode (with a more populated already galaxy) as is suggested a lot, use their experience for that sort of gameplay from their other franchises, and have a 'balanced start' scenario (similar to what we have now) for the more traditional multiplayer game experience.

 

[Ninjamestari]

I don't know, Stellaris was the most fun space 4x back in 1.9, and in no way did that exclude the sandbox aspects of the game. War was always a bit wonky precisely because of the artificial limitations of "war score" and such; claiming planets should've been as simple as conquering them, instead of making the whole thing more gamey in a bad sense. Apocalypse turned warfare into such a disgusting mess that I didn't even want to bother with it anymore, I absolutely HATE the way wars work in Stellaris now; they were never good, but they've gotten progressively worse with subsequent updates. The game simply isn't fun to play anymore, and every time I begin to play stellaris, I play about 50 years in max and then get bored.

I sometimes dream on what if, we could've had 1.9 style gameplay, the old tile/pop systems, the old ftl, but instead just have the other new features, such as origins.

Right now each update seems hell bent on simply trying to one up the already existing game with some new feature that tries desperately too hard to be "even cooler" than what has come before, which has led to stuff that doesn't work like Juggernauts and the new starkiller thingys; they're not interesting, they're not fun and they cheapen the overall experience. They're trying to outshadow old features on purpose, make the bare bones and way too shallow and gamey instead of creating proper simple mechanics that add DEPTH to the game. In other words, I think the design decisions have been exclusively made by the Marketing Department.

Scenarios and such can't save the game if the game is not fun. It's just not fun. I tell you, I used to love this game and keep hoping it'll become interesting again, but the fact is that it's probably never going to. The only thing that has reinvigorated my hope is what has been promised in the new Lem update.

 

[kwheeler]

Going from memory, there are the generic temporary bonus/malus to the construction speed that happens randomly, for Dyson Sphere there is one that another empire will demand 'reparations', as you are encasing the main star of a significant constellation to their culture, the Ringworld has one about some intrusive critters on one of the artificial biomes that are being created, and the Science Nexus has some quest lines that pop up some time after completion (one of then was about integrating one of your scientists brain into its network)... I guess there may be some more but I don't remember or haven't seen.

Ah, now I see. Thanks.

 

[SeraphAscending]

This looks very promising!

The concern for Choice Overload is very valid - not everyone enjoys reading through a pile of options like i do.

If the experiment is deemed successful, i would love enhancements of the system by adding new tradition trees that require previous tradition trees.
For example a xenophile-economy-focussed tree that requires you to have both Mercantile and Diplomacy finished. Or a xenophobe-defensive-subterfuge based tree that requires Unyielding and Subterfuge to be unlocked. (the idea being to destabilise everything around you and to be an impenetrable fortress to all your weakened foes while exploiting them - for example by stealing their tech.)
This would give veteran players their desire for more in-depth customisation options and won't overwhelm newcomers.

I am so looking forward to the coming updates! It's going to be great!

 

[Naughtyfication_Centre]

I absolutely love how the devs changed their internal matter. I had been lurking here for a while during the 2,x updates, and both the updates/DLCs were just as underwhelming as the atmosphere and communications here on the sub-forum.

This seem to have dramatically changed since my last absence; the updates got better, now actually addressing issues that are being pointed out by the player base, the content is more entertaining, and the Stellaris forum now feels like a pleasant environment. A big thanks to whomever made this happen at PDX!

I‘m already very much excited about the unity related changes. Can’t wait to let the legion of my diligent clerks follow the Vultraum’s steps by efficiently administering the liberation of the galaxy by finally destroying it for good.