Stellaris Dev Diary #219 - Selectable Traditions

[Dragatus]

What was the rationale of having Unyielding require Nemesis? I don't see the connection.

Subterfuge requiring Nemesis of course makes perfect sense because it's tied to operations. But Unyielding is just defensive buffs.

And I say that as someone who owns Nemesis (and all the other DLC) so I'll get them all anyway.

 

[LostInACave]

I like the idea for variety but I think that Expansion, Colonization and Discovery would have too much one-time bonuses as the permanent bonuses are diluted between the 4 trees. The worst hit would be on Colonization and Discovery (no more planets to colonize, no more systems and anomalies to survey) while Expansion and Innovation would receive most of the bonuses that are permanent and more desirable (less maineinance, more resources, more tech).

You are right, but that could be the trade off. Make the discovery and colonization branches stronger as a short-term boost, whilst Expansion and Innovation are longer term boosts that are less powerful initially but overtime would be equal. That can be how "balance" is maintained. Though colonization could equally have boosts for habitability, pop movement etc as well which would be a more long term boost.

 

[Blayze]

In DD #215 Grekulf mentioned changes to Unity coming after Lem, and tying it into the Administrative Capacity mechanic so Unity will have more uses.

Whatever the result, there should definitely always be a reason to want more Unity, and never a point where you feel like you're done with it.

Likewise, I'd also like to see some sort of Happiness/Stability benefit when you're at your cap of a resource (scaling based on how much of your resource cap you're overproducing), to give you an incentive to not micromanage your resources as much.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

• Finisher: no longer provides +1 monthly influence, but rather increases +10% ruler output for regular empires, or +10% admin cap for gestalts

That's a big nerf....

Not to me. With my peacefull playstyle I bath in influence and to my empire it will be a buff. I also usually get this policy rather late - after building all habitats I need already - and soon you can get this +5 influence special edict anyways.

 

[LystAP]

So early empires will be more Influence starved without that +1 Influence bonus for Domination? Where is the +1 Influence going? Is it going to be erased completely?

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

I assume you mean Ruler Pop Resource Output similar to what the Shadow Council civic.

Does this mean you've actually fixed this? Because currently it does next to nothing since most of what ruler jobs produces (such as amenities and trade value) doesn't value counts as resources. Which means it's usually only a small boost to unity.

Not to me. With my peacefull playstyle I bath in influence and to my empire it will be a buff.

Basically only Unity and Science Directors (and a few other nice cases) would be effected, as most rulers produce resources that aren't actually affected by job resource % modifiers outside of actual pop traits, like amenities and trade value.

Moreover, even if you're peaceful, the influence would let you pull out new Habitats, Gateways, and Megastructures faster, and unity should be abundant, so I have a hard time not seeing it as a net loss for your peaceful play style in practice.

 

[DrNukeLear]

Incidentally, modders might be interested to know that the script for making a new tradition tree is much less painful now (in fact, I'd even go so far as to say "painless" and "simple"), though on the other hand existing tradition mods will need to do a fair share of updating.

For instance, the tooltips for various aspects of the tradition trees are now auto-generated instead of you having to write it all yourself, and the icons don't need to be specified in the UI files anymore. Basically, it's much better all-round!

Any chance of an example file section or two to give us a head start updating mods? It’s a free feature after all?

Please?

 

[Andy_Dandy]

So is Adaptive Economic Policies pretty much a dead trait if you're going to form a trade league?

Trade Leagues are strong, so nothing to cry about.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

Basically only Unity and Science Directors (and a few other nice cases) would be effected, as most rulers produce resources that aren't actually affected by job resource % modifiers outside of actual pop traits, like amenities and trade value.

Moreover, even if you're peaceful, the influence would let you pull out new Habitats, Gateways, and Megastructures faster, and unity should be abundant, so I have a hard time not seeing it as a net loss for your peaceful play style in practice.

Doesen't matter. I don't need more influence when my influence is already stockpiled at +1000. Any other benefit is more beneficial to me.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Trade Leagues are strong, so nothing to cry about.

But its a notable anti-synergy and feels bad, as it makes it kind of a "wasted" tradition - the sense that you could have gotten something more productive.

Moreover, Trade League members are the ones who are MOST likely to take Mercantile, and thus the most likely to run into that issue.

If instead we had a policy that intensified the bonuses from all special trade policies (Consumer Benefits, Marketplace of Ideas, and Trade League), and maybe even Wealth Creation too, while letting ordinary empires keep Consumer Benefits and Marketplace Ideas without the civic, then we'd have a situation where this Tradition is never a waste for anybody.

ADDNEDUM:

@Andy_Dandy wrote: "Doesen't matter. I don't need more influence when my influence is already stockpiled at +1000. Any other benefit is more beneficial to me."

With all due respect, if you are playing in such a way that you constantly have +1000 influence you are generally playing highly sub-optimally, as you are wasting the opportunity to invest it in things that could make your empire stronger. For example, why haven't you used that influence to build more Habitats so you can get more mining operations to expand your income, or to build more Gateways so you can rapidly respond to any enemies who try to attack you and/or facilitate easier transport of trade back to your capital?

 

[LucasG21]

Will Domination's level cap traditions be getting any improvements, given that the others have been weakened even more? Polytechnic Education and War Games at least benefit other leaders or aspects of the game, which makes Privy Council and Colonial Viceroys, both of which offer only +2 levels for a single leader type, ludicrously poor value in comparison.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

But its a notable anti-synergy and feels bad, as it makes it kind of a "wasted" tradition - the sense that you could have gotten something more productive.

Moreover, Trade League members are the ones who are MOST likely to take Mercantile, and thus the most likely to run into that issue.

If instead we had a policy that intensified the bonuses from all special trade policies (Consumer Benefits, Marketplace of Ideas, and Trade League), and maybe even Wealth Creation too, while letting ordinary empires keep Consumer Benefits and Marketplace Ideas without the civic, then we'd have a situation where this Tradition is never a waste for anybody.

Would you rather see a more Trade League friendly tradition, but then Trade Leagues in themselves needed to be nerfed?

Pretty much what had/have to happen when Void Dwellers got their synergy traditions - Void Dwellers need a nerf (They needed a nerf anyways - but now they need an even bigger nerf).

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Would you rather see a more Trade League friendly tradition, but then Trade Leagues in themselves needed to be nerfed?

I think Trade Leagues (and trade in general) needs to be buff, under the reasoning that pretty much ALL trade is underpowered right now, given that the other basic resources get repeatable techs that can boost their effectiveness ad infinitum, as well as multiple 20% tech boosts much earlier in the game that leaves trade permanently in the dust.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

Commercial Enterprises:

• Will Commerce Megaplexes also get +1 merchant job, for a total of 2?

Unyielding finisher / Fortress Doctrine:

• Are there any plans to change how defense platforms work, in regards to their need for manual upgrading and their destructibility?

Domination finisher:

• Is the +10 % ruler output limited to resources (unity, science), or does it apply to trade and amenities as well?
• I was hoping for the Domination tree to get a +1 edict capacity bonus. That would have made the Domination tree a competitive option in the midgame, perhaps even the early game. Considering how few the ruler pops are, a +10 % ruler output bonus may not make any notable difference.

Eminent Diplomats:

• It would be good if this tradition also allowed us to remove favors owed to our enemies.
  Perhaps envoys sent to worsen relations could have a 1% chance per month to remove favors the other empire could potentially use against you?
  • It is important for balance in situations where one empire tries to improve relations, while the other tries to worsen them. Currently such situations are balanced, as the "defender" can effectively create a stalemate, but that will no longer be the case if the "friendly" side gets an advantage over the "unfriendly" side.
  • This is especially important if the chance is per envoy, as we can (at least the last time I checked) send multiple envoys to the same empire to improve/worsen relations. A player with many envoys can otherwise use 5 envoys to get the ETA for 10 favors down from 83 years 4 months to just 16 years 8 months.

Prosperity finisher:

• Giving a +5% stability bonus to another tree, rather than keeping it a unique Harmony feature, makes both trees less unique. The +5% stability bonus used to be the big reason (if not the only significant one) to go for the Harmony tree. I would have preferred something else, perhaps a +10% growth bonus (a growing population is, after all, one of the historical hallmarks of prosperity).
• If the described +5% stability bonus is added, it gets even easier to reach 100% stability. The other sources of stability bonuses become less special, less worthwhile. If it is added, I hope one of the other sources of stability bonuses gets pruned. Perhaps Psi-Corps or Deep Space Black Site could get new effects that take into consideration the expansions, mechanics and other changes introduced since they were added to the game? It is slightly odd that a "black site" is not involved with intel or espionage at all, for instance.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

I think Trade Leagues (and trade in general) needs to be buff, under the reasoning that pretty much ALL trade is underpowered right now, given that the other basic resources get repeatable techs that can boost their effectiveness ad infinitum, as well as multiple 20% tech boosts much earlier in the game that leaves trade permanently in the dust.

Might be. But federations in general are very strong - not at least when it comes to united military power.

 

[Arithmetician]

Doesen't matter. I don't need more influence when my influence is already stockpiled at +1000. Any other benefit is more beneficial to me.

If you’re letting your Influence get that high, you’re not using it efficiently. You could be making so many habitats, megastructures, or ecumenopoli with that influence, or using it to pass helpful resolutions in the Community / swing the votes in your favor by calling in favors. The only reason I ever let my influence get that high is if I want to claim a very distant but strategic/valuable star system .

(Edit: Looks like I got ninja’d by Mimisbrunnr making the same point before I could.)

 

[Reedstilt]

You're taking what is and has been a basic tool, one of the few in policies that we have for the economy and gating it behind a much more costly commitment.

This change is a bit of an air-breathing mermaid (introducing a solution to a problem in a game that didn't exist until the solution was added). I can't say I'm a fan of this change either, especially as others have pointed out that the the Tradition itself gets obsoleted if you're in a Trade League. And if you're going for the Mercantile tree, you're probably the sort of Empire that wants a Trade League as well.

A better option would be to have the Tradition unlock a suite of new Economic Edicts that compliment our Economic Policies rather unlocking the policies themselves. Leaving the Policies for more long-term planning and the Edicts for more fine-tuning economic choices that make you more adaptable to the current situation. Things like Extended Shifts (from Domination) could also be unlocked by Mercantile, for example. I wouldn't want to remove it from Domination though, at least not without suitable compensation. Domination is always the one I go for last as it is.

 

[HFY]

(5) Defense in Depth: increases Starbase Cap by +2 and reduces Starbase upgrade cost by -50%. In addition, owners of Nemesis will also increase Hostile Operation Difficulty by +4 for the Sabotage Starbase Operation.

Please don't use the same name for two different things. This makes it very annoying to answer questions about either of those things.

Finisher: Max Defensive Platforms +50%

+50% defense platform upgrade noises.... no, please do something else.

 

[Anonim97]

For the beginning of the rework it looks good. Love the switchable trees and deciding which one to choose. Hopefully in the future there will be more to choose from!

Anyway there are a few changes that could be made:
- Secure Shipment could become +10 acceptance rather than +5, since it's already small number.
- domination tree really should use a complete rework. It's been in bad position ever since Feudal Society became its own civic and took away then-existing bonus from that tree.
- Kinship in Harmony tree really makes Shared Burdens looks like amateur play.
- I absolutely love Commercial Enterprises from Mercantile tree. More Merchants!
- it really seems that both Mercantile and Unyielding will be must-use tradition tree. Mercantile for Trade Policies and Unyielding for Starbase cap.
- on another note Subterfuge is completely meh, mostly because espionage in itself is completely meh and Nemesis was the weakest DLC by far.

 

[Reedstilt]

It doesn't look like it's limited to Nemesis on the whole. Espiange effects are limited to Nemesis, so that part of some traditions won't apply if you don't have it.

Like I said, this Dev Diary is at odds with itself on this point. I'm just not sure which of its two statements is the one that's wrong. On one hand, it says "Unyielding and Subterfuge are currently unlocked by Nemesis" and on the other it mentions that one Tradition in the Unyielding tree is enhanced if you own Nemesis - which implies that it's not unlocked by Nemesis, merely altered by it. Obviously a change happened somewhere during development; I'm just not sure which direction that change went.