Stellaris Dev Diary #219 - Selectable Traditions

[Miguelinileugim]

Subterfuge seems so OP. I know it is highly unusual to even suggest this, but I feel like it should provide something like a -10% resource job production upon adoption and -50% naval capacity as part of the finisher. It may be brutal but getting so much more encryption, decryption and even a refund over intelligence operations! Not only will I be able to make it extremely hard for other empires to use any operations against me, but as their fleets invade my planets and surround my 1k fleet, I will easily spawn 75 power worth of pirates and turn the tide of the war! There's nothing more important to this game than operations, so removing this tradition is unthinkable, but if you must keep it given the incredible benefits it provides, at least nerf it. Thanks.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I would rename Unyielding to Resilience. It’s more inline with a tradition than a character trait.
Also, any inclination to make my mod obsolete and tie techs to related to trees, so that they are only researchable when a tree is completed?

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Some additional reflections after the post update, @grekulf . This, naturally, is my own personal opinions.

DOMINATION: Judgment Corps: no longer increases crime prevention, but rather makes your Enforcers produce 1 Unity. ---> This is still a very weak tradition; I urge you to consider a buff to this. The fact is, most competent players will either play well enough that they have minimal crime, and thus don't need enforcers, or can exploit the Crime Lord Deal otherwise (and even with making it harsher, players have found exploits to avoid having those jobs get filled). Enforcer jobs will commonly get deactivated, and this is not enough really reverse that trend on its own.

DIPLOMACY: Diplomatic Networking: Embassy pacts now produce 3 Unity --> As I said in my prior post, this is also a very weak tradition, and as taking new traditions increases the cost of future ones AND this doesn't scale into the late game, its of minimal/questionable value. Actually, I have an idea of something neat that could be done with it instead and could really incentivize and support the diplomatic game.

---> For example, what if Diplomatic Networking did this instead: "You gain 0.125 Influence from for each nation you have an Embassy with." Why that amount of influence? Because its exactly the cost a low level pact (Commercial, Migration, Research, etc.) would cost after having its cost halved by the Diplomacy Opener. Basically, really encouraging Diplomacy by giving you just enough influence for 1 free pact with them if you establish an embassy; it promotes Diplomatic Networking in other words, just like the tradition is named. That would also mean that it scales well to large galaxies, where you might be needing to interact with far more empires.

SUPREMACY: Adoption: no longer increases Starbase Cap by +2, but instead increases Naval Cap by +20. --> This is fine in the early game, but of minimal value later on.

MERCANTILE: Federal Trade Fleets: Tradition swap for empires that are members of a Trade League Federation. Increases fleet contribution to the federation fleet by +50%, similar to Entente Coordination. --> Thinking further one it, one small issue with this is that it is incredibly common for Entente Coordination itself to become a "dead tradition", because a competent human player will often provide so much naval capacity to fill out the federal fleet on their own (sometimes a few times over) by mid-to-late game, even before modification from Entente Coordination. Because there is a harsh 600 naval cap limit on Federation fleets, Entente Coordination's effect tends to be wasted. If you want this policy to be TRULY beneficial, you should strongly consider GREATLY increasing the upper limits on Federal Fleet sizes.

MERCANTILE: Finisher: increases trade value by +10% --> Seeing that we already have this effect within the same tree as an ordinary tradition, is there any way to make the finisher more impressive?

UNYIELDING: Resistance is Frugal - given the weaknesses of both flat unity buffs and defense armies, I think this needs a bit more to make it truly appealing.

SUBTERFUGE in general - still feels like its missing something and a bit underpowered, though it has some nice ideas.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

No, it was changed to be +5 stability for all empires. Synapse Drones don't really fit as much in Prosperity, it would make more sense in Synchronizity.

Swapping the additional Synapse Drone jobs to another tradition might fit better , but please do not remove this feature. As you have read many times now, we would rather have effects which have direct impact on gameplay and would prefer not to have too many flat % bonuses from Traditions. The effect of gaining additional Synapse Drone jobs was a great addition because of the way it synergizes with the +2 amenities per Synapse Drone effect from Traditions. Thats much more rewarding than reading "your empire now gets 3% output on all ressources" which is what 5 stability is. It makes it so the Tradition has real impact on gameplay once you finish it - which is what Tradition should be like.

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

Also, how is the Prosperity tradition that adds Clerks to Cities going to function now? (Or, to say it better, I might suggest its revision and improvement.) Is it going to be unchanged? Clerks are kind of weak and often a job that you don't want to fill when others are available, and are often over-prioritized, leading them to not working jobs you want unless you manually reassign them. They're a bit better now if you have Mercantile, but that's in a separate tree from this Clerk-adding tradition.

 

[Reedstilt]

Alright. I'm back today (got knocked out by 2nd dose yesterday)

Hope you're feeling better today.

1st of all some of you mentioned that you felt like Unyielding was out of place for Nemesis, and I don't disagree. We will shift it over to Apocalypse where it might feel like it fits better.

If it's going to be locked by a DLC, moving it to Apocalypse (with a minor Nemesis bonus for anti-sabotage) seems like the best idea.

Trade League empires get a swap called 'Federal Trade Fleets", which increases federation fleet contribution, similar to Entente Coordination.

Does this mean that a Trade League member with Federal Trade Fleets and Entente Coordination increases their Federation fleet contribution by 3-4x (depending on how the effects stack) instead of 2x? Honestly, it feels like an oddly placed effect in any case. Just spit-balling, but what if "Federal Trade Fleets" provided a bonus to your Trade Value based, in some way, on your Federation fleet contribution. This would represent your nation profiteering off the Federation fleet, from supply contracts to sailors on shore leave. It'll synergize with both the Trade League's unique Trade policy as well as Entente Coordination's bonus to fleet contribution.

 

[Wonoz]

Considering how going over cap-penalties work for Edicts I cannot say I hate +1 Edict cap +20% Admin Cap in Domination.
Playing imperial with Executive Vigor so round out at 5 Edict cap and the option to essentially go for a 6th with the finisher (without stressing admin cap any further)
Gotta say I kinda like it.
Still I think taking away the extra influence hurts pretty hard.

 

[grekulf]

There is two times +10% trade value in this tree which feels a little bit odd. Suggestion: Maybe adding a buff to trade hubs or giving +1 research in each category per 10 trade value instead.

I had originally thought about changing the conversion rates (+0.05x for example) from Trade Value, but that is also essentially just a more convoluted way of just giving you more Trade Value instead. I agree that double-dipping in the +10% Trade Value is boring, but it we had to default to that when some ideas we had fell through. We kind of ran out of time to really do anything more involved there.

It's a good point that if you have too many Tradition Trees, it can overwhelm players, especially new players, with too much choice. However I personally would like to see a few more options of tradition trees as they are such a cool part of the game. Specific permanent civics such as Driven Assimilators, Rogue Servitors and Fanatic Purifiers I think should get a unique civic tree option, as well as some Origins such as Scion, where the bigger, fancier fleet gifts from your Overlord are locked behind certain civics in your unique tree. I know that many of these options get unique civic swaps, but an entire dedicated tree I think would be very cool.

Agreed. I think adding more Traditions to the baseline would be a dangerous road to go down, in regards to Overvoice and new players. But as mentioned earlier, I think adding new trees through things like Ascension Perks or specialized empires might make more sense and won't bloat the amount of choices for all types of empires.

Yeah, I tend to agree with this. I'm not sure "Choice Overload" really applies here.

I felt a bit of Choice Overload with Hearts of Iron 4's tech tree, because there's just so many possible options. I didn't know what I needed.

With Stellaris Traditions, however, they are all fairly straightforward "concepts". When I design an Empire, I have a large choice of Traits and Civics, I know what type of Empire I am designing.

So, when I get to choose a Tradition, I know if it makes sense to pick "Expansion", "Discovery", "Supremacy". I don't really need to worry too much about the specifics, I can take it situationally just based on how it sounds.

Do I need to go to war? Supremacy.
Do I want to make friends? Diplomacy.
Do I want to focus on exploration and tech? Discovery.
Do I want to spy on others? Subterfuge.

I don't think Choice Overload applies here. You could easily double the number of tradition trees without hitting this issue.

Well, I'm not saying it applies right now, but I do think its something that we need to be aware of. If we end up with 20-30 tradition trees that are available to most empires, that would certainly make it harder for players to make a choice. Especially new players. More choices isn't necessarily better either. We want the choices we have to matter more.

@grekulf
Are you going to do anything about the Unity from Embassies tradition that lots of people were pointing out doesn't really scale very well, plus has questionable value because while it boosts unity rate taking it also means you future traditions are more expensive?

That is unlikely to change as it hard for us to change at this point due to localization. Some effects we can change without requiring new localiztion, while others we cannot easily change.

In addition we're also considering buffing Domination's Colonial Viceroys to give +0.50 monthly influence.

 

[Serenity84]

I'm not a fan of putting too many tradition trees behind DLCs (it makes sense for espionage), but better starbases as part of Apocalypse at least fits thematically

 

[Mímisbrunnr]

You know, thinking on it, it would be kind of cool if there were ways to get small amounts of influence from many of the trees as a reward for playing your empire in a manner consistent with the theme of the tradition - kind of like Factions, but probably not as intense, and with a bonus tied to a selected tradition rather than an ethic.

 

[grekulf]

You know, thinking on it, it would be kind of cool if there were ways to get small amounts of influence from many of the trees as a reward for playing your empire in a manner consistent with the theme of the tradition - kind of like Factions, but probably not as intense, and with a bonus tied to a selected tradition rather than an ethic.

Certainly cool, but it would be very difficult and time-consuming to balance properly.

 

[Liggi]

Agreed. I think maybe another 4 trees, bringing the total to 15, would be plenty. I think that gives people plenty of room to define the character of their empire without overloading the player.

In terms of what those should be... some concepts I see as missing:

Bureaucracy / Efficiency (arguably similar to Prosperity)
Expression / Artistic / Storytelling
Faith / Religion / Rituals

 

[Tamwin5]

I think Black Bagging someone aggressively wouldn't priorities over anyone unless the Popnapper is trying to free the slaves by Popnapping.

Considering how many people a single pop represents (hundreds of millions, at the very least), this isn't a "black bag some individuals" type of situation. This is human (or alien) trafficking, and on a scale not present on earth. As a clandestine operative, the only way you are moving that many people is if they are willing. Plus, going full Underground Railroad I think would be a very rewarding play style.

 

[Critical Ethics]

Agreed. I think adding more Traditions to the baseline would be a dangerous road to go down, in regards to Overvoice and new players. But as mentioned earlier, I think adding new trees through things like Ascension Perks or specialized empires might make more sense and won't bloat the amount of choices for all types of empires.

You could add a set of three or four traditions that only unlock after you've completed four or five other traditions, increasing the total amount available but keeping the amount to choose from at one time quite low.

 

[evilcat]

Influence Domination
Influence isnt bad perk, we need less of it for Edicts, unless we change them more often. But claims, integration and megastructures are the thing even late game, and also...
Pacts. Commerce, Science, Defense, Migration. Some pacts may drain influence hard.
Other aproach is influence on specific things. Like Mercantile-discount on trade pacts. Dominance claims and integration. Prosperity Megastructures. You know the drill.

Overchoice of Tradition Trees
You can present default order of tradition so new players can go like Discovery-Expansion-Prosperity-Vigiliance-Mercantile-Harmony-Supremacy and they will be kinda ok. You probably can pick 7 most generic and universal traditions.
Or assume it is not a problem, and players will solve which 7 traditions are META and which one are MEME. It will take 2 weeks flat.
The whole tradition choice could be very simple if:
you do not take tradition not fitting the gamestyle, like no diplomacy without federation ambiotion, and no subtlefuge without Nemezis DLC.
you do not take tradition which is MEME or waiting for balance (weak)

 

[Tamwin5]

I had originally thought about changing the conversion rates (+0.05x for example) from Trade Value, but that is also essentially just a more convoluted way of just giving you more Trade Value instead. I agree that double-dipping in the +10% Trade Value is boring, but it we had to default to that when some ideas we had fell through. We kind of ran out of time to really do anything more involved there.

That is unlikely to change as it hard for us to change at this point due to localization. Some effects we can change without requiring new localiztion, while others we cannot easily change.

In addition we're also considering buffing Domination's Colonial Viceroys to give +0.50 monthly influence.

In regards to potential bonuses for Mercantile finisher, some potential possibilities:

• 5% trade value per capital building level
• +1 Merchant job on every planet with at least a level 3 capital (25 pops)
• Commercial Pacts give you 20% of your partner's trade value (as opposed to 10% base)

Also for the 4th branch office building slot, why not put that in Mercantile... but for the megacorp? So if the megacorp grabs that perk, they can build an extra building on their offices. The trouble would be what perk you swapped out for that.

That is unlikely to change as it hard for us to change at this point due to localization. Some effects we can change without requiring new localiztion, while others we cannot easily change.

This is something that I'd never considered when thinking about the amount of work that goes into design. If you need to put it on the back burner for the Lem launch, and only include it with 3.1.2 or whatever that's fine.

So for a shorter term fix, either swap it to 0.1 influence (or 0.125 if you prefer), or increase the unity to like 10 or 20. I know balancing things can be hard, especially influence, but I'd rather try out something fun and interesting that has to be nerfed, then always go for the boring, safe option. Just keep an eye on it and you can adjust it in the next patch if it's too broken.

 

[Leviathan2379]

Where will we choose traditions is my biggest question. Still super hyped!

 

[majikero]

If your going to make defense a tradition, are you going to buff defense stations? The time it takes to actually fill out the slots is too long since it builds the platforms one by one. The platforms themselves are weak. We can build titans but we can't build a damn battleship with no engines.

The time it takes to upgrade a station and fill out its platform slots, I can build enough corvettes to roll over it in seconds.

 

[Carl_Bar]

Alright. I'm back today (got knocked out by 2nd dose yesterday),

As someone who got knocked out by both doses, my sympathies, hope your 100% before you came back.

Glad to hear the responses and i hear you on localisation issues.

Long term for Domination i think it would be good to combine both + level effects into a single perk and maybe add a secondary rider to the housing bonus with a new perk replacing the second +level bonus.

I don't myself mind that you've reduced total available influence income, i think that might be a good thing longterm, but at the same time i get it may be easier to add somthing like that back somwhere as a rider to raise the overall value of the domination tree.

For related reasons i personally don't have an issue with the trade policies being locked behind a tradition, they allways felt a bit too strong to have early and allways strictly better than wealth creation, this is a good way IMO to work around that without nerfing them outright.

Whilst i agree there's a danger of over-choice, (I'm mildly ASD so i have a severe appreciation for what getting overwhelmed with choice can be like), right now you only have to leave 4 trees on the table as a regular empire. Compare that the the ascension perk situation, (which TBF i feel biases a bit too far the other way),where there's roughly 21 perks, but after ascension path only 6 slots, so your allways leaving 15 on the table. I'd say 8 to 10 on the table is a more reasonable middle ground TBH but 4 absolutely feels a bit light. However this is a custodian update and the first one, it's not something we need right this second IMO, but somthing to consider for the future.

 

[methegrate]

Well, I'm not saying it applies right now, but I do think its something that we need to be aware of. If we end up with 20-30 tradition trees that are available to most empires, that would certainly make it harder for players to make a choice. Especially new players. More choices isn't necessarily better either. We want the choices we have to matter more.

To echo what others have said, that definitely makes sense. Absolutely so. Personally speaking, I immediately bounce off of every one of those mods that adds a wall of new traditions.

I would suggest that the balance is still a little too far in the direction of having too few choices though. At least, from what I can tell, it seems like the system will feel a little closer to “which couple of traditions am I not picking this game” than “how will I build my empire.”

Out of curiosity, given that mutually-exclusive traditions have often been suggested, was that something your team explored as an option? What did you end up thinking of that mechanic? (I guess more specifically, I’m just curious why you felt like that wasn’t a good fit.)