Stellaris Dev Diary #215 - Gameplay themes & Balancing considerations

[FleetingRain]

Bro, research districts aren't the cause. It's bureaucrats (which you already said you are planning to change, thankfully) and also Industrial Districts. Moving CGs/Alloys to districts freed up so much space we now just fill the slots with Research buildings. Removing Industrial District's would help a lot.

 

[Silyus]

These are all good ideas, just a few notes.

Game Balance
We’re going to take a look at reworking some of the major outstanding balance issues that we’re having.

One example that I want to talk about is the issue with Research Booming, where power players can essentially outpace other empires due to focusing a lot on research. What enables this is usually Districts that provide Researcher Jobs, which is relatively easy to gain access to early on through Origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers (the latter not being nearly as strong).

For Shattered Ring we are looking into changing the start from a pure “end-game” Ring World, to be more of an actual “Shattered Ring” that you need to repair before you gain access to the powerful Districts of the Ring World. Putting additional emphasis on the fantasy of restoring this ancient megastructure to its former glory can be a fun addition to the Origin itself. Although we haven’t decided exactly what we’re doing, changing the start to be a Shattered Ring that you can restore with the Mega-Engineering technology is a likely route.

On that note, can you do a balance pass to all origins, especially those introduced in federations? For instance I love the idea of the Scion origin, but the FE seems to provide only protection and free gifts with very low drawbacks/demands/constraints.

Unity & Empire Sprawl
Beyond Lem, we are also going to take a look at Empire Sprawl and Unity. The design for Admin Capacity was never really something that I felt worked out, and we never finished the design that was intended for it. Continuing to use Admin Cap as a mechanic also feels a bit like a dead end due to multiple reasons (ranging from design to technical), so we’re instead going to look into another solution.

I have a design for doubling down on using Unity as the resource for internal management, removing Admin Cap entirely, and to make Empire Sprawl something that you can never mitigate anymore. More sprawling empires will always suffer harsher penalties from Empire Sprawl, and we’ll instead focus on how Unity can be used internally to mitigate some of those penalties. Examples could be Edicts that have a Unity Upkeep Cost, and perhaps reduce the Research Cost Penalty induced by Empire Sprawl. Angry Pops could potentially also have a Unity Upkeep Cost, to represent the drain on your society.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of an hard limit on expansion, especially considering that the game pushes you in that direction from early game (exploration etc..) and mid game (wars etc..). I'd like to see the expansion as a sort of balancing act, that if it is done properly it causes little to no problems, but you are also aware that it is a precarious equilibrium, and any external/internal issue can potentially topple your vast empire over.

A thing that might be cool may be to expand the rebellion system, where (e.g.) a faction that is neglected too much in an empire that expanded too much too fast may consolidate and schism into a separate empire (spanning several systems) within your borders. This could promote investing more in ideological cohesion or, going in the opposite direction, becoming a sort of feudal empire.

This begs the question tho: why not do a whole expansion dedicated to the internal politics?

 

[Meebleborp]

One example that I want to talk about is the issue with Research Booming, where power players can essentially outpace other empires due to focusing a lot on research. What enables this is usually Districts that provide Researcher Jobs, which is relatively easy to gain access to early on through Origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers (the latter not being nearly as strong).

While this is certainly true, districts themselves are not the end-all-be-all of tech rushing. Void Dwellers does get out to the strongest initial start due to its districts, but is soon passed not just by Shattered Ring but also by Necrophage, which has to get the majority of its science via labs. VD also has a significant period of downtime in the early-mid game when it either has to wait on new Habitats to come online, or conquer territory to expand instead, and this is a real force counteracting that early lead.

If you target research districts directly, you're not really going to curb tech rushing - you're just going to shift focus onto builds that have access to more building slots/pops early on - Necrophage, Resource Consolidation, etc. And honestly, tech rushes from 'fair' origins like Remnants, On the Shoulders of Giants, and Prosperous Unification are not even that far behind, especially when combined with Technocracy.

I suspect the real problem here, at least in regards to single player gameplay, is the fact the current AI is so incredibly inept at building research that the player focusing on ANY amount of early science will put them ahead. If I tech rush on high-difficulty Starnet (sorry, has to be said), for instance, the results are very different. Not only is the AI actually threatening to me when I neglect defense like this, but it can almost keep pace with a half-decent tech build while still fielding a serious fleet! Perhaps if the vanilla AI was capable of this, you wouldn't have to focus on curbing things like tech rushing, and could instead fine-tune origins based on their overall power instead.

For Shattered Ring we are looking into changing the start from a pure “end-game” Ring World, to be more of an actual “Shattered Ring” that you need to repair before you gain access to the powerful Districts of the Ring World. Putting additional emphasis on the fantasy of restoring this ancient megastructure to its former glory can be a fun addition to the Origin itself. Although we haven’t decided exactly what we’re doing, changing the start to be a Shattered Ring that you can restore with the Mega-Engineering technology is a likely route.

I am skeptical about how the exact balance would work out with this (was this not the idea anyway?), but it's true that Shattered Ring is currently incredibly broken with Machine Empires. That part is key, btw - it's actually not that strong at all for empires that are harmed by Ringworld Preference. I hope you guys are keeping this fact in mind, so that we do not end up with a scenario where Shattered Ring is finally balanced for MEs but utterly useless for everyone else.

 

[Segek]

Looks so promising

 

[Uburian]

Oh yes! If its a worker that goes, its the Culture Worker since its so generic. Bureaucrats would be the Unity producing job. That would mean shifting around some job-swaps (like managers for megacorps) to be swaps of the bureaucrat instead.

We absolutely need to maintain the idea of Trantor.

While i do agree that keeping bureaucrats around and giving them the option to generate unity is a very good idea, i don't really think that they should outright replace cultural workers. After all, unity is mostly used as a representation of the cultural unity of your empire, its main use being that of unlocking traditions, which are an inherently cultural thing. While i can see how in certain empires bureaucrats could have a bigger say in cultural matters than in others (taking Bogon society as an example) i don't think that that would be the norm in most cases.

In sort, i think that it would be more appropriate to find another role for bureaucrats, while i also think that Cultural workers should be reworked into a more expansive culture system, although that is a topic for another time.

 

[Tamwin5]

I don't understand this

I don't understand the issue of "Research Booming." I would expect that an empire that spends more resources towards tech and focuses on it should outpace one that does not. Why is that a problem? Or are you referring to an exploit that provides benefits beyond that of just merely making it a focus for your empire?

I understand the game by design props up weak empires and gives them protections (e.g. war goals to limit the scope of conquest) to make them harder to eliminate, thus giving them a chance to recover. This prolongs the game artificially for a more "epic" experience. Is instead the intention to do this with technology so that no empire can ever really be so technologically inferior that they cannot catch up?

The thing about technology is that technology gets you everything. And while the costs do increase exponentially, production often increases at a faster exponential. So it turns into a snowball, and one that's harder to stop than a conquering snowball.

 

[Vund]

At the same time, I must admit that it is also a bit scary in the sense that we shouldn’t have the expectation that this will suddenly resolve any issues you might have with the game, or that we’ll be able to deliver large amounts of significant changes with every update. Let’s appreciate this opportunity and make the best of it

I'm sorry my expectations are already set and they are sky high. Good luck meeting them!

 

[Velaroz]

Oh yes! If its a worker that goes, its the Culture Worker since its so generic. Bureaucrats would be the Unity producing job. That would mean shifting around some job-swaps (like managers for megacorps) to be swaps of the bureaucrat instead.

We absolutely need to maintain the idea of Trantor.

So does this mean that Megacorps get Managers...
Spiritualists get Priests?

By this same notion, what of the amenities jobs? Since amenities & unity are so close together currently--would this change later, or remain the same?

Would there be some fancier combinations of jobs/effects from civics, w/ the culture worker smushed into the Bureaucrat?

 

[Silversweeeper]

Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.
Let us know about any ideas or thoughts you have regarding those

Elves tend to think rather highly of themselves compared to other races (not dissimilar to FEs), so perhaps a civic giving Unity/Citizen happiness in exchange for worsening foreign relations/restricting options for dealing with other species empires (but not to the Fanatical Purifier extent) requiring Xenophobic/Fan. Xenophobic could be something for them. Other than that, I think a lot of things are covered by existing things (Remnants and FEs cover "Had and lost a great empire", Agrarian Idyll covers "In touch with nature", and some traits cover long lifespans and few children), though an Origin letting you start with Mind Over Matter (and probably Ascension Theory unlocked, to have a slot for it) to cover the "Inherently good at magic" thing would perhaps be an option.

 

[arosenberger14]

Game Balance
We’re going to take a look at reworking some of the major outstanding balance issues that we’re having.

One example that I want to talk about is the issue with Research Booming, where power players can essentially outpace other empires due to focusing a lot on research. What enables this is usually Districts that provide Researcher Jobs, which is relatively easy to gain access to early on through Origins such as Shattered Ring or Void Dwellers (the latter not being nearly as strong).

I'd disagree that districts are the issue with "Research Booming," while these origins are indeed tech overpowered, it's pretty typical for any player to outpace the AI in tech and blaze through the tech tree by midgame. There's a few reasons for this; first is the old changes to sprawl and bureaucrats that effectively removed the research penalty to growing, second is the ineptitude of the AI at focusing on tech, and third is how your population explodes once your first few colonies come online (though this is less significant with the empire-wide growth penalty). Happy to hear that you're thinking of re-working admin cap, and any such re-work should make research rate depend more on the proportion of their economy that an empire devotes to science rather than sheer quantity. The base tech costs may also need to be tweaked so that higher tier techs are more expensive to make it harder to rush through endgame techs.

Ultimately though, unlike say EU4 there is no institution spread or ahead of time penalties to tech, so it's theoretically possible to blaze through the tech tree. Some sort of tech diffusion system might be a fun idea to implement eventually.

Unity & Empire Sprawl
Beyond Lem, we are also going to take a look at Empire Sprawl and Unity. The design for Admin Capacity was never really something that I felt worked out, and we never finished the design that was intended for it. Continuing to use Admin Cap as a mechanic also feels a bit like a dead end due to multiple reasons (ranging from design to technical), so we’re instead going to look into another solution.

I have a design for doubling down on using Unity as the resource for internal management, removing Admin Cap entirely, and to make Empire Sprawl something that you can never mitigate anymore. More sprawling empires will always suffer harsher penalties from Empire Sprawl, and we’ll instead focus on how Unity can be used internally to mitigate some of those penalties. Examples could be Edicts that have a Unity Upkeep Cost, and perhaps reduce the Research Cost Penalty induced by Empire Sprawl. Angry Pops could potentially also have a Unity Upkeep Cost, to represent the drain on your society.

Note that these ideas are very much in their infancy and very prone to change. We will probably start talking a bit more about that once Lem has been released, but I wanted to share some thoughts with you so that we could gather some initial feedback.

Very excited to hear about this, seems like an excellent idea to me!

 

[PtY]

I must admit that it is also a bit scary in the sense that we shouldn’t have the expectation that this will suddenly resolve any issues you might have with the game, or that we’ll be able to deliver large amounts of significant changes with every update. Let’s appreciate this opportunity and make the best of it

The complaints about Stellaris and, at times, other Paradox games stem mainly from a sense that everything besides the DLC under current development is neglected - usually from an apparent lack of dedicated resources and manpower - and not because bugs aren't fixed immediately. As long as there's evidence that the Custodians team is listening to feedback and actively making positive changes, I think most people will be happy.

Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.

Let us know about any ideas or thoughts you have regarding those

Maybe give us a way to change the appearance of outposts and starbases. It's hard to think of a mechanically balanced way to do this - either it would cost resources for a purely cosmetic change, or it would be free and the appearance of the galaxy would be greatly homogenized - but perhaps automatically changing the appearance of a starbase to that of your empire if you upgrade it would work?

Unity & Empire Sprawl
Beyond Lem, we are also going to take a look at Empire Sprawl and Unity. The design for Admin Capacity was never really something that I felt worked out, and we never finished the design that was intended for it. Continuing to use Admin Cap as a mechanic also feels a bit like a dead end due to multiple reasons (ranging from design to technical), so we’re instead going to look into another solution.

I have a design for doubling down on using Unity as the resource for internal management, removing Admin Cap entirely, and to make Empire Sprawl something that you can never mitigate anymore. More sprawling empires will always suffer harsher penalties from Empire Sprawl, and we’ll instead focus on how Unity can be used internally to mitigate some of those penalties. Examples could be Edicts that have a Unity Upkeep Cost, and perhaps reduce the Research Cost Penalty induced by Empire Sprawl. Angry Pops could potentially also have a Unity Upkeep Cost, to represent the drain on your society.

Note that these ideas are very much in their infancy and very prone to change. We will probably start talking a bit more about that once Lem has been released, but I wanted to share some thoughts with you so that we could gather some initial feedback.

The main balancing problem with the current system is that it's really easy to get admin capacity from bureaucrats. Their output isn't affected by habitability and, unlike all other specialist planet designations, making a planet a bureaucratic world affects pop output, not pop upkeep.

I like the idea of using unity instead of admin cap, but I really hope there's a complete overhaul of internal politics coming with it. I'm guessing it would feel a little lackluster without diverse factions and pops having a little more political agency than they do now.

 

[acerstart]

Something I would like to see is for Factions to create unity or a new resource that would slowly unlock specific Tradition trees.

For example the Isolationist Xenophobe faction could produce progress towards the Supremacy and Prosperity Tradition trees. This way you ethics and the factions you allow to exist will help grow and influence your empire. This wouldn't mean that as a Xenophobe/Authoritarian empire you would never be able to unlock the Diplomacy tree, there should be a base passive gain for all trees, it just means that Diplomacy would not be a focus to your empire. This shouldn't lock the player out from any trees though; by suppressing/promoting the factions should give an increase to that unlock rate which gives a passive influence sink, especially in the late game, that is needed. Nor should this mean that the play will be able to quickly unlock all the trees, there should still be a scaling to the cost of the traditions.

 

[Silens]

Here's another question: Expanding will clearly become a bit more punishing in the future, encouraging players to overall maintain smaller empires/keep less territory. That also means fewer opportunities for archeology, which means less artifacts.

Is there some consideration going on to make artifacts obtainable in a more diverse manner, like war (i.e. Galatron), trade or via imperial seizure? (I specifically didn't mention espionage, as there's no real defense against that)

 

[methegrate]

Angry Pops could potentially also have a Unity Upkeep Cost, to represent the drain on your society.

These all sound like pretty great ideas, but I particularly love this one.

 

[TouchMe(das)]

Humanoids was a bit trickier, because there are no direct fantasies that apply to them in general, so we instead chose to focus on fantasies that align with things like dwarves, elves, orcs or humans. The Civic we showcased last week was an example of how we made something inspired by a traditionally dwarven fantasy.

Let us know about any ideas or thoughts you have regarding those

I can't wait to see what you will come up with, but I don't know how the community feels about leaning too hard into fantasy stereotypes. None the less I would quite enjoy playing Marauder like Orks who really feel as they are depicted most of the times, more blunt but in huge numbers.

 

[Tetranet]

Speaking of Trantor, how about you add a Bureaucrat district to Ecumenopoli? It'd be a massive win from both the flavor and gameplay sides of things, and Ecu's currently are "short" a district.

Personally I'd like to see the culture worker stick around, but significantly buffed and produced only in special situations.

Agreed.

Ecumenopoleis can easily have one more arcology-type, such as one meant for fortresses or bureaucracy.

I also agree that Culture Workers should stay. The game should be more about empire-building and less about warfare, and culture is important for that.

 

[Obeliskkai]

I hope, however, that you'll keep bureaucrats around for generating unity. It would be a great shame to lose the idea of a dystopian hell in which whole planets are dedicated to nothing but bureaucracy!

Given that unity represents a nation's spirit and morality (it's a resource associated with spiritualists after all), that would seem to be counter-productive, like having slavers dedicated to bringing freedom.

I say, the idea of bureaucrats has failed.

Cull it.

 

[glee8e]

changing the start to be a Shattered Ring

What exactly is a Shattered Ring? A special planet class? Or you live on a normal planet and just has 3 ruined ring section in your capital?

 

[Iosue Yu]

I am going to drop you some ideas of humanoid themes.

Humanoid has been around as long as space SF is concerned, even before we had film or tv drama productions. Many novels and anime works exist but they do not have the requirement to make aliens humanoid to make make-up arts easy.

Humanoids are the best ones we have fantasised the most, familiarised the most and written the most, particularly among the themes of common precursors and their seeding.

And Humanoids themselves are superior in terms of evolution, because we have a pair of hands to use tools, good mouth structures to make complicated languages, eyes pointing forward to read fine prints, and being physically not that great to push to adaptability.

Humanoids may share these common themes:

1. Common ancestors - naturally being able to communicate and have similar cultures
2. Adaptive evolution - simply being adaptive in many things, at the trade-off that our pragnent women carry long terms instead of laying a clutch of many eggs at the same time
3. Superior forms - that we simply find our limbs very good at using tools, not leaving body fluid, feathers or scales everywhere

Special themes may include

1. Cloned race - A race that has just a handful of individual ancestors. All clan members are clones of the clan's founding father. Each individual has self-identity, but everyone has the same genes within a clan.
2. Segregation by sex - An extension to the above. This time the race takes it a step even further that male and female members don't even live together (see the Zentradi from Macross). Being cloned is not a requirement. Just that all members must be created instead of born. (I think Zentradi aren't cloned.)
3. Unisex race - Not related to the above. But this time the Asari from Mass Effect. The race is unisex and reproduce by some alternative gene sharing instead of sexual intercourse. This trope is particularly popular for an all-female race for some reasons.
4. Vampires - Similar to Necrophage but they suck blood
5. Latent Psionics - Starting as Latent Psionics with a trade-off. A Psychic race is a somewhat recurrent theme in many Space SF
6. Uncultured - Somehow since we expect a fellow humanoid species to have a similar culture as us, and it turns out this one race doesn't have a culture. It'd be intriguing. (Also a trait taken from the Zentradi from Macross) It means they have no notion of civilians. Everyone is a soldier or a worker for the government. They don't need entertainment. Similar to the Hive's Civic Ascetic. Then, they suffer from a big culture shock at first contact. (Like the Zentradi just froze when they see humans kissing, as they also have segregation by sex)

And to be honest, Humanoids have a very special connection with us humans. You don't find it as strong if an elephant race is psionic in nature. It's that when we see a blue-skined human, we expect them to be just a recolour of us humans. So we have some form of expectation. Then if they act strangely, we have a stronger response. Humanoids are a very good platform to put many SF tropes on.

 

[Korp]

1. Hive minds shouldn't have hive mind maluses against one another. When I play, I always try to make friends with the other hives. In fact, I've been dragged into multiple wars to protect my less competent hive neighbour in my current game

Don't hives get a diplomacy bonus towards each other? Pretty sure it's a bug if they don't. The wiki says they should and I could have sworn I have seen it.