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Stellaris Dev Diary #194: Intel

Hello everyone!

Last week we started talking about some of the changes we’re making to establishing first contact, and as promised, today we will continue talking about how you can learn more about alien empires.

All of the things we are talking about today is work in progress and may not accurately reflect the finished product. That said, we still want to hear your thoughts and read your feedback!

Background
It always felt like there was so much missing potential when it came to learning more about alien civilizations in the game. We didn’t like that you had so much information as soon as you established communication with an alien empire – all of their borders would be revealed, and the diplomatic window would reveal most of the other information. We aim to change a lot of that.

We want alien civilizations to feel more mysterious and unknown. We want the experience of learning more about alien empires to be an equally important and fun aspect of exploration.

Fog of War
As we briefly showed last week, we are making some changes to fog of war, and what type of information you will be getting about other empires.

You will no longer see all of the systems and borders occupied by the empire you have recently contacted, but it will now instead be tied to how much Intel you have. This really makes alien empires feel way more mysterious, which is something that we really like.

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The information on the empire to the galactic south-east is very limited. We can see their homeworld and the borders explored by our science ship.

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The galaxy as seen from the yellow empire in the top-right. There are a bunch of empires that we know very little about, and there are still more that are undiscovered.

Intel
Like mentioned above, our primary objective is to make alien empires feel more mysterious and unknown. We wanted to hide information and allow you to learn more about other empires as you gain more Intel on them. Our goal is to make the Intel game a part of the exploration aspect of Stellaris.

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An alien empire recently established communications with us. Friends..?

Let’s take a look at how we have designed the Intel game to work.

First off there is Intel, which is a value between 0 and 100. You have a current Intel value, and you have a “target” Intel value, up to which it can grow. You usually have an Intel floor, which is the lowest value it can be, depending on a couple of factors such as:
  • Diplomatic Pacts (Research Agreements, Commercial Pacts etc.)
  • Trust
  • REDACTED (doesn’t look like anything to you)

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Depending on things like diplomatic pacts, trust or other things, your Intel will grow over time.

Intel Categories
Information is split between different Intel Categories, such as Government, Military, Diplomatic, Economic, Technology. Categories can have different Intel Levels as well, ranging from None to Full. The Intel categories and their levels are what determines what information you have access to. Here are some examples:
  • Low Government Intel (Intel: 10) would reveal basic things like empire name, authority, ethics, capital location.
  • Low Military Intel (Intel: 40) would reveal starbases and relative military power.
  • Medium Government Intel (Intel: 40) would reveal civics and origin.
  • Medium Diplomacy Intel (Intel: 50) would reveal the opinion breakdown and let us see which diplomatic pacts they have with other empires.
The Intel you have on another empire heavily influences the Intel Categories, but it is not the only driving factor. It is also possible to have a higher Intel level in a certain category than what you would normally get from your level of Intel. One such example is Intel Reports, and we’ll talk about some other examples in future dev diaries.

Intel Reports
Intel Reports allow you to gain more information in a certain category, on a timed basis. It would be, for example, possible to gain an Intel Report which lasts for 720 days and gives you a High level of Military Intel, whereas otherwise High Military Intel might require you to have 80 Intel on the empire.

Stale Intel
It is said that knowledge is power, and intel is a form of knowledge. Power usually fades, and so does Intel. It is possible to lose access to information that was previously accessible. In some cases, this information will now be displayed as stale.

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Intel, now in the scent of working from home for months.

The last information you had about the empire was that they were far weaker than you on many accounts, but perhaps they have strengthened their fleets by now? Stale Intel can also mean that you may no longer see if the borders for an empire change or not.

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That's it for this week! Hopefully you've gained some Intel into how the game is changing for the upcoming expansion :)
 
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I would be grateful if information about enemy empires influences space battles - like a modifier. If you don't know much about the enemy empire, your weapons may not be as effective (blind shooting), if you know a lot, you know the weakness of their shield, armor, etc.

This parameter can also be related to the number of fights / destroyed ships in combat - so you will learn about their combat technology / systems and the way they fight. The analyzed debris may also affect it.

In my opinion, it would also be nice to see enemy fleet strength in some disguise, like a large, medium, small fleet or an estimated power of 1000-1500 - the more you know about them the better estimaton e.g.1130-1230
 
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I see there are a lot of diverging opinions on how Intel and Fog of War should work, so, after all, I think ANY half-decent implementation would be good as long as it can be fixed with mods to more specific tastes. So, make the system moddable to extreme, make every possible information (for example, for certain type of buildings to be visible, for example, not knowing of any science labs before research intel) about another empire triggerably visible (not only with intel), and that would make the patch pure gold.
 
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I gave up on Stellaris some time ago, but this will definitely pull me back.

Basically all the main things I've been complaining about this year got fixed/somewhat (AI) in the last patch and the rest is about to be fixed in the next one! Maybe there is something good about 2020 after all. ;)
 
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if i exterminate unwanted pops and everyone dont have intel on me this means nobody have a clue what happened with my exterminated pops?
There is no crime, when there are no witnesses. :cool:

Well that would be cool, first sending them to a border world no one knows about and if anyone asks - say they all went on vacation. :D
 
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I gave up on Stellaris some time ago, but this will definitely pull me back.

Basically all the main things I've been complaining about this year got fixed/somewhat (AI) in the last patch and the rest is about to be fixed in the next one! Maybe there is something good about 2020 after all. ;)
I've taken a break from all the PDX games, actually, gives me time for Cities Skylines, Noita, and other new titles I've gotten into latelly (and which needed my limited hard drive space :p ) . Will get back to HoI and Stellaris with the next big update.
 
if i exterminate unwanted pops and everyone dont have intel on me this means nobody have a clue what happened with my exterminated pops?
If a tree falls in the woods and no one has intel points, it does not make sound.
 
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This is awesome stuff, looking really forward to it. One thing though. Looking at the galaxy screenshot, we can kinda guess how large an empire is, based on how big their respective symbol is. E.g. Space Vampires seem to be way bigger than some of the small empires on the left. Maybe limit the Symbol size to fog of war view, instead of actual size?
 
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Yes, having goals to aim towards generally motivates people, even if some people can be motivated without them.

I'm legitimately surprised anyone thought of that as a goal. I had always considered it a forgotten appendage of a past design decision

Yes, otherwise there's little reason currently to play beyond the mid-game if you're not blobbing everywhere or have strong intrinsic motivation. It also allows for multiplayer games to have some closure instead of playing until everyone gets bored. "We're going to play a 20 hour campaign" is a different commitment than "this will be open-ended until too many people stop returning."

I just find it surprising that the victory screen provides any motivation. I had assumed people would play as long it was exciting and there were still hurdles for their empire, and I don't think an end game screen provides enough motivation for people to push through a stagnant mid/end game
 
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It's strange to see a post with so many votes where I can't even figure out what point you're making, so I feel compelled to ask: what in God's name point are you making?

'Cos on the face of it I would think that discovering that the aliens use T1 weaponry is very useful information, in the "It's free real estate" sense.

But it's possible you're making some sort of commentary on (a personal bugbear of mine) how the AI's universal use of mixed-munition fleets (to which there is no counter-strategy other than build moar ship) means that all intel is useless. Because currently in Stellaris, every enemy empire gets dealt with the same way: outproduce the enemy with generic fleets. An intel mechanic is completely pointless because it will never cause you to change your strategy, so why even bother investing in intel points?

Since you didn't make this point explicitly, I will: Paradox, there is no point in making an intel mechanic unless you simultaneously change up the AI's fleet loadout spec. Intel that doesn't help you win wars is kinda pointless, in order to win wars you need to win battles, and with the way combat works currently, intel can't help you win battles because AI ship loadouts are too generic to intelligently counter.

You can't see the point? It s very simple. Why would i waste ressources on knowing a ship load out if there is laser and kinetic early on . Missiles do not count because the shipset already gives away missile, and hull point is such a prevalent mechanic of this game having proper counter design often doesn't quite make the difference.

I'm not making a commentary on "Ai universal use of mixed-munitions, tho it is most definetly part of the problem, i'm making a commentary on how in a galactic scaled game , as they reach for the stars, from the most infuriatingly annoying arthropoid to the most honorbound Mamallians, their ship designs are almost virtually the same, a mix of kinetic / energy that eventually get overwritten by L weapon.

Paradox, there is no point in making an intel mechanic unless you simultaneously change up the AI's fleet loadout spec.
Your points stands, and I share it, here's mine tho since you don't seem to have understood it.

Paradox, there is no point in making an intel mechanic linked to ship design if the base game doesn't already holds the cards for one to outsmart the other by using proper aliens weapons and tactics, not a global mix of (pardon me) boring kinetic vs energy vs sometimesmissilewhenthey'rerelevant that everyone share, this won't be enough, and it's terribad for the flavor of this space game.

And the same goes for tech. The current only proper alternative to tech is alloys, if you know someone is overwhelming to you in tech, you don't need to find out about their economy, you know he'll have a much weaker alloy output then he should have had, and that's something you can exploit.
And What about Unity in all of this? Can we even pause for a second and realise what a proper Unity system could achieve with an Intel / even sabotage! system?

My second point would be.

Paradox, although there is a point making an intel mechanic to know about tech vs alloy, can we actually dump said bi-dimensionnal aspect of the game by introducing a proper Unity system, This way when you know about someone's tech, you won't be able to deduce directly his alloys, for he could be spending ressource into Unity instead.

The Sad truth is... i believe this is far out of scope for Paradox next release... despite being so essential in my eyes to the game. I can't be the only one that is almost driven away of the game by those 2 lackluster aspect that are space battles and Unity.
 
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I just find it surprising that the victory screen provides any motivation. I had assumed people would play as long it was exciting and there were still hurdles for their empire, and I don't think an end game screen provides enough motivation for people to push through a stagnant mid/end game
I take it you're not a completionist? It can be more frustrating to play a game and not have a goal or an end in sight, where you just play until you get bored of the mechanics, and then instead of starting a new game you move on because you're bored with the game itself. Cities doesn't have a goal, but by the time you unlock the final milestone, you've probably built around most of the interesting features on the map (though I think their milestone system hasn't held up as well with all the DLC).

It does help that Stellaris has the crisis, which is something I always look forward to. Without that, it'd be harder to play beyond the midgame. But even on a smaller scale, if the victory year is only 20 years away, why not play through to the end? And from a new player point of view, the victory year serves as a ticking clock building suspense ("am I ever going to beat that fallen empire in time?") when you don't yet know how the game will play out.
 
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You can't see the point? It s very simple. Why would i waste ressources on knowing a ship load out if there is laser and kinetic early on . Missiles do not count because the shipset already gives away missile, and hull point is such a prevalent mechanic of this game having proper counter design often doesn't quite make the difference.
In early game, when you're dealing with Corvettes that have 3 weapons slots, and therefore potentially twice as much energy damage as kinetic (or vice versa), you can absolutely counter-build.
 
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Low Government Intel (Intel: 10) would reveal basic things like empire name, authority, ethics, capital location.
Often the first thing an alien empire does is announce its empire authority -- "High Queen Xklrub'fluronk greets you." -- so I wonder is that game text going to be re-written?

Or is even getting to that NPC dialog the equivalent of "10 intel"?
 
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In early game, when you're dealing with Corvettes that have 3 weapons slots, and therefore potentially twice as much energy damage as kinetic (or vice versa), you can absolutely counter-build.
First and foremost
Armor is more expensive and doesn't regenerate, and starbase bolster much more armor than shield which increase drasticly the prelavence of energy weapon therefor people will tend do go for more shield and energy weapon. And don't get me started on plasma weaponry and proton launcher. It s hull damage that truly matters

Second... my main argument was that space battles lack in flavor, not that it is impossible to counter build. It s just that counter building has little impact because of the very small amount of weapons at your disposal, some of which are almost downright niche/unusable.

Like picture you this " oh wow he has one more kinetic per ship than i anticipated, guess i ll add some more armor" is this really appealing for an intel system?

Compared to "holy blorg he has stealth component battlestation BATTLESTATION!"

Or "those ships signature are fake! This was a diversion"

This is the kind of stuff i'd expect from xenos. Not a mostly overlooked feature that get overwritten by proton launcher. The fact that "automated ship design" is a thing is a testament to how underwhelming this mechanic is
 
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I'm not making a commentary on "Ai universal use of mixed-munitions, tho it is most definetly part of the problem, i'm making a commentary on how in a galactic scaled game , as they reach for the stars, from the most infuriatingly annoying arthropoid to the most honorbound Mamallians, their ship designs are almost virtually the same, a mix of kinetic / energy that eventually get overwritten by L weapon.
Well... you sorta are. My concern is that intel will be useless because there's no diversity of enemy fleet loadouts [because the AI is coded to make generics a supermajority of the time]. Your complaint is that intel will be useless because there's no diversity of enemy fleet loadouts [because there's only 2 options at gamestart].

Paradox, there is no point in making an intel mechanic linked to ship design if the base game doesn't already holds the cards for one to outsmart the other by using proper aliens weapons and tactics, not a global mix of (pardon me) boring kinetic vs energy vs sometimesmissilewhenthey'rerelevant that everyone share, this won't be enough, and it's terribad for the flavor of this space game.
You've circled back around to making intel useless again here. If ship loadouts are locked to specific empires, then if you're running "Mammalian shields" and the other guy's running "Reptilian shieldcutters", you're just dead in the water because - whether you intel-know their loadouts or not - there's nothing you can do about it, you're locked to your racial fleet configs!
 
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Medium Diplomacy Intel (Intel: 50) would reveal the opinion breakdown and let us see which diplomatic pacts they have with other empires.

For QoL will we be able to see diplomatic pacts if we have high intel on the third party? For instance: the player meets Empire A and has no intel on them, Empire A has a defense pact with Empire B. The player has high intel on Empire B, enough to see its diplomatic pacts. Will we see this information on both A and B's diplomacy screen or just on B's? I think it would be really useful to have it on both, despite the lack of intel on A, because the alternative will get confusing and awkward.
 
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You've circled back around to making intel useless again here. If ship loadouts are locked to specific empires, then if you're running "Mammalian shields" and the other guy's running "Reptilian shieldcutters", you're just dead in the water because - whether you intel-know their loadouts or not - there's nothing you can do about it, you're locked to your racial fleet configs!
That's an incredibly specific and fatalistic point of view you got here. Of course there will always be "assumptions" of what someone would use regardless of what intel introduces, but a "racial" step would def be in the right direction, not circling back to "intel is useless". Then you can start doing Racial x Origin... or Racial x Civic... or More space creatures weapons... event weapons... some alien shenanigans like stealth, fake fleets, genuine hit and run fleets...

Well... you sorta are. My concern is that intel will be useless because there's no diversity of enemy fleet loadouts [because the AI is coded to make generics a supermajority of the time]. Your complaint is that intel will be useless because there's no diversity of enemy fleet loadouts [because there's only 2 options at gamestart].
I should have specified that this wasn't the first thing that came to my mind, but ofc this is an issue.

The bottom line to all the comments i made in this thread can be resumed to this:

Unity Overall + Space Battle Overall = Game fixed. Like, genuinely. When you start factoring in different and proper unity path per playstyle, you're almost certain to hook new players, and increase their play time. If you give them anything but mind-numbling space battles they will not "burn out" mid session because they either got stomped or they started stomping people, and finally the amount of flavor possible in those 2 domains is just limitless. If you manage to introduce this while staying a minimum true to the "More stuff counter less stuff" trademark of strategy games (stellaris included), and having a solid "economic base", you're almost certainly done with Deving stellaris, everything beyond that would be flavor.
I don't know what else i can add to this, feel free to prove me wrong.
 
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