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Stellaris Dev Diary #19 - Diplomacy & Trade

Greetings!

Today our humble offering covers some of the possible Diplomatic Actions and Trade Deals that can occur between Empires. As most of you may know, the basic diplomatic model used in our previous games work quite well and we will use something similar in Stellaris. All Empires will have opinions of all other known Empires, and different actions, events and internal politics will often affect that opinion. The ethics of each Empire will of course play a heavy role here, as pacifist Empires will react quite differently to aggressive wars than would a xenophobic militarist one.

In Stellaris trade between Empires is a very direct affair. Players can create two-way deals lasting a set amount of time, and our ambition is that most diplomatic actions should be available here as tradeable objects. For example, you can offer another Empire a monthly payment of Minerals in exchange for Military Access and updated Star Charts for a period of 5 years, or receive a vital supply of the rare Garanthium resource by offering a nonaggression treaty as well as a guarantee of independence should the other Empire feel threatened. If you want to simply gift or demand something you can leave one side of the trade-deal blank, and the AI will react accordingly.

stellaris_dev_diary_19_01_20160201_trade.jpg


However, these kinds of trade deals will only happen between equal Empires and as most rulers know, it is better to gain something without having to give up something else. This is where more static diplomatic relationships come into play.

Tributary
A Tributary is forced to pay a set amount of their income to their Overlord each month and is most often established as the result of a lost war. The Overlord will not automatically defend them in wars, so the Tributary is caught in quite an unfortunate position until they have the military strength to either demand an end to their servitude or declare a war of independence.

Protectorate
A Protectorate is a subject protected by a (to them) technologically superior Empire. The Protectorate gains a major research-bonus to all technologies that their Overlord has already researched, and is automatically converted to a Vassal when having progressed far enough technologically.
Any pre-FTL species that is technologically enlightened is automatically created as a Protectorate under whichever Empire granted them the ability to space-travel. The Overlord in turn gains political Influence each month and the eternal gratitude of a bright-eyed new member of the galactic community.

Vassal
A Vassal is the most controlled type of subject-Empire. They will automatically join their Overlord’s wars, aggressive and defensive, and they have no autonomy when it comes to foreign policy or diplomatic relations. A vassal also run the risk of a full diplomatic integration by their Overlord.

Subject-actions
All types of subjects have a Liberty Desire expressing how content they are living under their Overlord’s rule. If a subject's Liberty Desire becomes very high they have a chance to start a war for independence, often waiting for an opportunity when they sense weakness (a taxing war, a larger uprising, a galactic crisis etc.). The Liberty Desire is a compound of a few different parameters but the main ones are the subjects opinion of the Overlord, the total military strength of all the subjects relative to the Overlord as well as if the subject can find someone who supports their cause.
As you would expect from our other games you are able to support the independence of another Empire’s vassal. Doing this will greatly increase their Liberty Desire (assuming the supporter has a fleet rivaling their Overlord) and may cause them to rebel. If they do, the Empire supporting them automatically joins their war for independence. You are also able to guarantee the independence of a smaller Empire, automatically entering the war on their side should they be attacked.

stellaris_dev_diary_19_02_20160201_diplomacy_insult.jpg


We’ve also added another vital diplomatic action to ensure that we can realistically model the complicated diplomatic interactions going on between advanced nations; the insult. Make sure to clearly express your feelings towards your enemy by insulting them, instantly lowering the opinion between your Empires greatly.

That was all for this week. Next dev diary will be written by Doomdark, expanding further upon War & Peace.
 
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Ah okay, so you're for an organic limitation. I think that's a good goal to strive for.

Sure, but I also think it's better to allow for imbalance and gamey strategies then place too many limitations in. IMHO it's less of a problem if the player can get an OP vassal arrangement then if the player can't get an interesting vassal arrangement.
 
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Praetori

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Can you not have deals which are indefinite? The interface doesn't appear to support that at first glance.

That would be interesting, or at least a "re-negotiate" slider that stipulates when a deal is up for renegotiation.
I miss more granular criteria in general from diplomacy in PDS titles such as "validity eternal unless participants go to war with X" etc.
 
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valergain

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Liberty Desire is a thing in this game. Hopefully it won't so easy to mange.
 
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I dunno if someone already pointed this out but...
there's no alpha banner. There's no alpha banner. THERE'S NO ALPHA BANNER.

Okay anyways; I approve of the system. It's EUIV-esque but it does have some innovations to it, like setting your own custom length of time for the agreement.
 
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I am a big fan of the diplo options outlined.

Maybe instead of tech trading, (which can be fun to do late game to beef up a buffer state), there could be a diplo option to form a research agreement.

Such an agreement would take a scientist character from both empires out of circulation for the duration.
It would provide a small boost to research for both nations for the duration, with a large resource point payout to both empires on the conclusion.

Depending on the character traits of the scientists, this conclusion could just reward research points, it could promote good relations between the two states, or cause a diplomatic incident (say, if one scientist steals all of the research for his state. The empire would then get the option to share the research and arrest the scientist, or keep it and damage relations).

I also hope that there is more in the way of espionage. Proxy wars have been an important part of modern warfare, and they are tragically underrepresented.
 
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ashbery76

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I am happy that tech or planet trading are not included.These systems are nothing but exploits the humans use against a non strategic thinking A.I.

I think the treaty caps like in EU4 all also needed.With the possible huge amounts of factions it is needed.
 
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Sounds like a blend between the traditional Paradox diplomacy system and Civilizations diplomacy.
 
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The similarity to the diplomatic system of EU4 makes me worry that stellaris might also have the same gameplay flow as EU4:
  • Attack weakest neighbour
  • Conquer or vasallize him
  • Repeat
  • That's pretty much it
Please, make it more meaningful than that!

That's what will happen with any game where there is only AI. Balancewise most Pdox games are a joke.

A thorough MP session will make all of this worthwile, people just need to open up to it.

Until true AI, no game will really be challenging (without cheating AI).
 
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On tech-trading; we are thinking of some sort of research-treaty that does not accelerate the game-pace wildly or allows players to game the AI, yet gives friendly Empires a reasonable way to co-operate against another big bad Empire. Whatever we do there won't be a straight-up trading/selling of entire technologies as it's a nightmare to balance/create interesting gameplay from.
How about selling of old ships and ship parts which then the buyer can use as is or reverse engineer like they would have any ship you found derelict. That and cooperating on research projects, with more advanced societies being reluctant to work with less advanced ones.

A player can be a Vassal to another Empire (human or AI) and still play. If the player is integrated/diplo-annexed the game is lost however.
Please make it so that if we are annexed/integrated we get the option to continue as the integrating/annexing party (a more ck2 style mechanic) perhaps with achievments disabled though. Joining up and cetralising shouldn't nesecerily be seen as a defeat. That's the problem EU4 already has, a united HRE is a defeat for everyone except the one uniting it. Assuming of course that the integrating party is not also a player.

We'll see. It might be that we allow players to buy/sell planets between each other but restrict the AI from doing so, as the AI often has a hard time evaluating the value of such deals.
As long as you make their inherent reluctance to do so moddable.

Yes and no. Old technology transfer is certainly OPed and heavily abused, but there are interesting alternative systems, like civ 5 research treaties (pay money and you and a friendly empire get a research boost on the long term) or fallen enchantress (?) system where whenever you research a technology in one field, you get abstracted points in that field. Then you can trade those points to other empires; so if I'm a militaristic empire, I can help in military teching an empire that is more focused on civilian technologies while he can offer me something unrelated to technologies or civilian technology points.
I was thinking that you could buy and use or reverse engineer old technology from other empires (kind of like how the narn sold old weapons they had from the centauri to earthforce during the earth/minbari war).
Also since the science in this game is character driven then there could be downsides to buying technology since you never develop the ability to develop technology yourself instead being forced to rely more and more on the technological and scientific breakthroughs of others.

Just because we don't see nations using these terms, doesn't mean they don't exist in a real way. What we have today are economic dominance and subservience, without such messy terms as "vassal".
It'd be better modeled with the Vic mechanics like sphere of influence. We don't live in 1444-1821 it's concepts simply work less well for us and the future than the concepts of a later age.

I always found the insult action to be a strange thing in diplomacy.
I would prefer that you could get events based on the actions and decisions taken by empires you are aware of and then get the ability to condemn that action if you're looking to pick a fight. Look at how sweden's foreign minister managed to piss of both israel and several arab states simply by being a little to forthcomming with her opinions.

Nope, the first thing the US, Canada and the UK did when they got a nuclear bomb was probably test it.

Then WW2 ended and the US decided it would not share information it obtained with said allies with said allies.

So the UK built its own nuclear weapons (yeah, that not sharing thing didn't make so much difference).

Four years after refusing to share the data and with significant diplomatic concerns they amended the act and shared the data, after all.

Then it turned out that they had promised to share the data when agreeing to work together.

So, yeah, sharing with allies should be a thing... But even cooler would be joint technology projects.
Yeah but those were on roughly the same technological level.

I'm wondering, is it possible that, say as a Human faction, if I run into a Fungoid faction that I may not recognize them as sentient?
I hope this is in missunderstandings are the best causes of conflict.

I wonder if we will be able to force other empires into our federation.

I wonder if we will be able to reform our federation into an empire. This about the end of EU4 where you can unify the HRE. That would make some downside to just making a massive federation, and perhaps an ulterior motive as well.
I like it, especially with my "not game over if diploannexed" clause. It makes no sense that diplomatic unification is a bad thing for the members.

Sorry if this has been asked before, but will the vassal system be closer to EU4 or CK2? And, if the system is closer to EU4, what happens if the vassal is integrated into a federation? What exactly differentiates the two?
I'd really like to see ck2 internal tiers of an empire make it into more paradox titles.
 
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But if it's not then you have this stupid paradox where you can obtain technology from your enemies (by salvage for exemple) but cannot from your allies.

Last Federation had a pretty good gameplay mechanic with allied research, in that the player put in valuable time to help other species research tech. So a joint research project. For tech they already had, they traded it, but I think for gameplay balance people can just get a research boost instead of allowing rare and valuable card techs being traded to third parties. It accounts for the integration time, reverse engineering.

For alien tech they get that they can use, they shouldn't be allowed to reproduce it and give it to a third party.

In general, I see some responses about how it is too close to EU 4, perhaps EU 4 is just naturally limiting in that fashion. For me, this diplomatic system reminds me of CK2, and not just because of the vassal mention. The entire process of making sure each part of your empire likes you, reminds me of the gameplay flow in CK2. Instead of individual vassals and other people you have to deal with, the state is represented at a macro level by an opinion modifier to each other, and the individual personality mismatches are traded for long term species relations, ethos, etc.
 
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There was a race that shares the Romulus home system I forget the name.
The remans? They weren't subjects they were slaves. Remus was very much a direct part of the romulan empire.

Also Star Trek Nemesis isn't exactly treks poudest hour.
 
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loup99

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Wasn't sphere of influence in Vicky2 and IIRC eu3?
In EU3, it was secondary and not really something the player interacted with as far as I understand.
 
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DDA87

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Don't know if this question has been asked/answered already, but is there a way to claim space/is there some kind of mechanic like civ's culture borders? Reason is playing galciv3, AI had an annoying habit of colonizing planets in your borders and grabbing resources away from you with starbases in your borders as well. This should be considered an act of war, yet they do it anyway with a negative diplo modifier afterwards claiming you are too close to them. Civ4 had this as well somewhat, with them settling for resources near your border and then being mad you're culture pushing them to extinction :p

Really hoping there is some kind of sphere of influence mechanic at play, with good AI programming. The same should go both ways of course for the human, the AI considering it an act of war or very high threat if you grab their Mars for instance.
 
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Arkangilos

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Exactly why sphere of influence is better, we may not know what kind of influence they have but we do know they somehow are influencing this other faction. Works much better in sci-fi.
I don't know, I have no problem with vassalage, and in the context they provided it fits the description much better.
 
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Vroobel

Ex- 2D Artist Mesoamerica Universalis
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Still it's 2016 - how many protectorates, vassals or tributaries do you see nowadays?

Well not a lot.But you are seeing this as a human from earth. In 2016 we have this last (Indian) protectorate (That is Bhutan). This game is sci-fi. You don't know if another civilisation ever developed or stopped using vassal/tributary methods. Maybe tying some functions to Races/Empires would be a good idea.
 
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Ornlu Wolfjarl

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Because the annexing you causes a game over?
In EU4 there are barely any times that swearing yourself to a more powerful neighbour is a good idea, in ck2 it is actually a multi facceted thing (in fact being a subject may be a little to good compared to what it was like in reality).

This is EU4: When it comes to human overlord with an AI subject, you always annex. When it's a human overlord and a human subject, the thing is very different, and is entirely dependent on what they agreed upon. There are cases where a vassalage might be a better alternative than facing an AI coalition, or when you can't get powerful allies to defend you. It's certainly a good strategy when a player starts with a small nation and a neighbor player controls a medium-sized nation (e.g. Anhalt and Saxony). You become a subject with the understanding that your overlord will help you expand, then they release you and maintain a game-long alliance. When it's AI overlord and human subject, the AI never tries to annex if I'm not mistaken.
 
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