Stellaris Dev Diary #159 - Galactic Community

[Jin_Cardassian]

I think where'd I'd disagree is that these things don't necessarily need to hard-crash someone's economy or building options. They don't need to function symmetrically to warfare in the sense of attack/counterattack. I think the criteria I'd make are that any given system should be:

• Active (as you say, it is something the player does, not simply a modifier that they apply to another empire)
• Conceptually simple (should be as straightforward in concept as "you build ships and take their territory")
• Sophisticated in practice (there should be a variety of options for how you advance or defend against this)

This doesn't necessarily have to be as powerful as warfare because it isn't intended to replace going to war, more supplement it. Maybe do a nested design? If this is an R/P/S-ish design, then have the idea be that within each system there'd be a set of three main options also built that way? So like our resources/economic attack would have three main things you can do, designed to circularly offset each other? That way it's more complex than just "push button, do thing," but structurally straightforward?

Idk... It definitely needs more brainstorming.

It also makes sense that there is at least some overlap with the other systems, even if it's a suboptimal strategy.

Trade can generate energy, which can be used to hire mercenaries. It's really in character for commercial empires to rely on these. If manpower were a resource, that would be another reason to employ them.

As for consumer goods, they can be sold for energy, but it's suboptimal. It would be nice if the living standards for a particular species' worker strata affected army morale. The flipside is that armies with a lower living standard would have lower upkeep along with morale.

Consumer goods aren't used for many things right now. How could consumer goods, or the products of them, be used offensively?

Perhaps the problem with consumer goods is that they are too vague, and would need some specialization to reveal their teeth. Say if you could choose to preferentially focus on producing Luxury Goods, Convenience Goods, or Tech Goods, then you gain access certain abilities that can influence other empires by spending the surplus.

 

[Admiral Adama]

I hope that a member of the Galactic Council can be selected as the peacekeeping force for the Galaxy with fleet bonuses and passage through members space etc. Luke the Turians in Mass Effect.

 

[The Founder]

I hope that a member of the Galactic Council can be selected as the peacekeeping force for the Galaxy with fleet bonuses and passage through members space etc. Luke the Turians in Mass Effect.

Having a Emergency Resolution that forces open Borders is a thing the Galactic Council is confirmed to be able to do.

 

[shadowclasper]

I hope that the person whose contact gives you access to the galactic community gets some kind of diplomatic bonus with you? Galactic Community Sponsor or something

 

[The Founder]

I hope that the person whose contact gives you access to the galactic community gets some kind of diplomatic bonus with you? Galactic Community Sponsor or something

I kinda asumed they would just do a SMAC thing - once the GC forms, everyone that can join is giving contat with everyone else that can join (unless they already have).

I hope they do not go the Civ 6 route. It was wierd that you have council meetings with people, but did not know who they were or get any contact with them.

 

[Foefaller]

I'm not sure exactly what this would look like myself. I'm still thinking about it. I agree completely that it would probably have to involve creating new mechanics, not just tweaking the old ones.

I also agree that this needs to involve resource consumption to solve the alloy optimization problem. Mostly because otherwise I think there'd be no mechanism to force a choice. If you didn't grow your capacity in these three areas through a zero-sum economy, what would keep an empire from just maxing out all three strategic approaches at any given time? Not that I think we should have an empire hard-limited or handicapped. More that you should have to choose where to dedicate resources.

I think where'd I'd disagree is that these things don't necessarily need to hard-crash someone's economy or building options. They don't need to function symmetrically to warfare in the sense of attack/counterattack. I think the criteria I'd make are that any given system should be:

• Active (as you say, it is something the player does, not simply a modifier that they apply to another empire)
• Conceptually simple (should be as straightforward in concept as "you build ships and take their territory")
• Sophisticated in practice (there should be a variety of options for how you advance or defend against this)

This doesn't necessarily have to be as powerful as warfare because it isn't intended to replace going to war, more supplement it. Maybe do a nested design? If this is an R/P/S-ish design, then have the idea be that within each system there'd be a set of three main options also built that way? So like our resources/economic attack would have three main things you can do, designed to circularly offset each other? That way it's more complex than just "push button, do thing," but structurally straightforward?

Idk... It definitely needs more brainstorming.

Espionage... I'm reluctant just because I've never seen it work well. When it's powerful, it tends to feel more like getting trolled by an RNG than a fun mechanic. To prevent that, it's usually gimped past the point of usefulness.

IMO most of the issues that stem from espionage come from not giving enough depth to it. CKII does espionage pretty well, because it isn't *just* mark a guy for assassination and wait for it to happen, you have to get people close to the target to help, which might involve bribes, diplomacy, marriage, seduction, slander, etc. You might succeed, but they discover you're behind it and suffer opinion penalties that might make ruling harder, or you might get discovered by your liege and find yourself inside a jail cell.

However, most 4Xs make it essentially either push a button, and then wait, or wait for a resource to build, and then push the button, and because espionage is suppose to be "secret," the target doesn't see anything until it happens, and rarely gets any benefit from fending it off other than "nothing happens."

Good Stellaris espionage would need to involve more than just espionage, and have degrees of success and failure. For example, one counter to espionage that generates unrest in a sector might be to patrol a fleet through it as a show of force... which might mean that it is no longer where it's *suppose* to be to defend against a surprise invasion. Or a successful act could still create evidence that the target could use in the Galactic Community to sanction the empire they believe responsible, which might not *actually* be the party responsible.

 

[The Founder]

IMO most of the issues that stem from espionage come from not giving enough depth to it. CKII does espionage pretty well, because it isn't *just* mark a guy for assassination and wait for it to happen, you have to get people close to the target to help, which might involve bribes, diplomacy, marriage, seduction, slander, etc. You might succeed, but they discover you're behind it and suffer opinion penalties that might make ruling harder, or you might get discovered by your liege and find yourself inside a jail cell.

The problem is, we got nothing even close to the Amount of Charactesr needed for such a Web of Relations.
Envoys will move this upwards a lot. Especially resulting in Characters from another Empire working upon yours for the first time.

 

[Foefaller]

The problem is, we got nothing even close to the Amount of Charactesr needed for such a Web of Relations.
Envoys will move this upwards a lot. Especially resulting in Characters from another Empire working upon yours for the first time.

Every time I try to conceptualize what I'd like Espionage to look like, I realize that the game would need another rework of the internal game, particularly factions, which would need to expand beyond just ethics, and probably sectors to support that change.

 

[Admiral Adama]

Having a Emergency Resolution that forces open Borders is a thing the Galactic Council is confirmed to be able to do.

Yeah and i'm happy with that. I was meaning more in general if you becoming a council member you can have specific bonuses.

So for example.
Only one member can be designated as the "peacekeeper". So each member of the council and every other empire that wants you to protect them will grant you a percentage of their fleet capacity.

You can then build a larger fleet, maybe two titans per fleet?, but to maintain your position you will need to have a large enough fleet and complete issued tasks such as sending a fleet to a members homeworld as a show of commitment to protect etc.

Another council member could focus on research, another on commerce etc etc

 

[ashbery76]

You can band together for the end game threats but what about the Khan,Awakened Fallen Empire and players/factions that are killing the balance the balance of power? Seems like this is something that would be included in a galactic UN

 

[Admiral Adama]

You can band together for the end game threats but what about the Khan,Awakened Fallen Empire and players/factions that are killing the balance the balance of power? Seems like this is something that would be included in a galactic UN

That's a good point cause those are kind of early/mid game crisis events themselves. Maybe there will be a resolution for dealing with those events.

 

[Admiral Adama]

Every time I try to conceptualize what I'd like Espionage to look like, I realize that the game would need another rework of the internal game, particularly factions, which would need to expand beyond just ethics, and probably sectors to support that change.

Hoi4 are introducing an espionage mechanic in their next expansion. Maybe that might highlight some ideas for how it could work on Stellaris.

 

[ashbery76]

That's a good point cause those are kind of early/mid game crisis events themselves. Maybe there will be a resolution for dealing with those events.

It would seem very odd thematically if the Khan has taken half the galaxy and the senate is worried about workers rights.

 

[RabbaDooDabba]

It would seem very odd thematically if the Khan has taken half the galaxy and the senate is worried about workers rights.

Insert 'Ah yes, "Reapers".' joke from Mass Effect here.

 

[sortulv]

It would seem very odd thematically if the Khan has taken half the galaxy and the senate is worried about workers rights.

"If workers can get away with a simple 60 hours week, or if we are not permitted to replace non-performing workers at will, then how will we be able to build the warships needed to defeat the Khan?"
"Treating workers as slaves is not the solution. The Khan allows for all religious holidays off and a simple 40 hour week, we cannot be worse than that!"

 

[Promethian]

It would seem very odd thematically if the Khan has taken half the galaxy and the senate is worried about workers rights.

Me thinks you lack historical perspective if you think politicians cannot be so short sighted as to not see a threat on their doorstep.

 

[Eladrin]

Maybe there will be a resolution for dealing with those events.

There are Galactic Foci relating to several galactic threats, including some non-endgame ones.

Though empires that are not immediately threatened may dismiss the ridiculous claims as a hoax until it's been proven that they're actually a threat. (Support tends to grow as the Crisis advances. Don't expect a Xenophobe empire that's on the other side of the galaxy to care unless it affects them directly, unless they chose the Defender of the Galaxy Ascension Perk.)

 

[ashbery76]

Me thinks you lack historical perspective if you think politicians cannot be so short sighted as to not see a threat on their doorstep.

Well that's why it's a vote and in the real world most did know the threat that's why they tried to contain it.War is a big deal and a last resort.

 

[ashbery76]

There are Galactic Foci relating to several galactic threats, including some non-endgame ones.

Though empires that are not immediately threatened may dismiss the ridiculous claims as a hoax until it's been proven that they're actually a threat. (Support tends to grow as the Crisis advances. Don't expect a Xenophobe empire that's on the other side of the galaxy to care unless it affects them directly, unless they chose the Defender of the Galaxy Ascension Perk.)

Cool but what about a run away faction?

 

[jbaker1]

For the pics showing the Community picture section, on left side of the Senator addressing you with the auto-text is what looks like a small book, is that correct? Both for the one with the purple unicorn and the leafy alien too