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Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.

upload_2019-8-29_10-40-35.png

Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-13.png

We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-49.png

The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-12.png

Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-48.png

For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.

upload_2019-8-29_10-43-26.png


Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
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The Grumpy Buddha

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By contrast influence is one of the most interesting and important resources in the game. I'd argue that it is by far the most interesting and important, and that's because it's perhaps the only legitimately zero-sum resource. You get what you get and have very few ways to generate more. I never have as much influence as I want, and that's a very good thing.

Because you need influence to claim systems, this probably wouldn't work, but it'd be interesting to have a mechanic where it costs influence to get conquered planets under control, the same way you pay influence to integrate an empire. I suppose that the influence you pay to claim a system (with most govts) is supposed to reflect that, though, or somethin'.

It would be a huge revamp, but I wonder if it could be balanced to make it so that you could change the system to where influence is no longer needed to claim planets after war, but you need a great deal of it post-war or else you get massive revolts.
 

Twimak

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i don't like this balance tweak coming at the cost of a building slot if there aren't any actually new mechanics involved.

just tweak the numbers for now, you can introduce the new building when you do your grander idea of where to take the mechanic.
 

General Karthos

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I again will restate that forcing tall empires to devote precious building slots to increase their administrative capacity is far more harmful than forcing the building slot on a wide empire. As though it wasn't hard enough to build tall already!

I'd also like to suggest that capital complexes should also employ bureaucrats, so that upgrading a capital complex increases the administrative capacity of the Empire. This could represent the way the larger administrative center is able to take on more direct responsibility for the local population and surrounding space.
 

Methone

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I again will restate that forcing tall empires to devote precious building slots to increase their administrative capacity is far more harmful than forcing the building slot on a wide empire. As though it wasn't hard enough to build tall already!

I'd also like to suggest that capital complexes should also employ bureaucrats, so that upgrading a capital complex increases the administrative capacity of the Empire. This could represent the way the larger administrative center is able to take on more direct responsibility for the local population and surrounding space.
While we're at it, petition to bring back the pre-2.2 tradition of having Capitol World Only buildings?
 

BlackUmbrellas

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I again will restate that forcing tall empires to devote precious building slots to increase their administrative capacity is far more harmful than forcing the building slot on a wide empire. As though it wasn't hard enough to build tall already!
It sounds more like a "Tall" empire could probably get by using techs and/or Ascension Perks and/or Civics, whereas a "Wide" empire that wanted to not suffer abyssmal penalties would have to offset their MASSIVE empire and its resultant sprawl with a dedicated Administration world or two.
 

morangias

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It sounds more like a "Tall" empire could probably get by using techs and/or Ascension Perks and/or Civics, whereas a "Wide" empire that wanted to not suffer abyssmal penalties would have to offset their MASSIVE empire and its resultant sprawl with a dedicated Administration world or two.
If you look at grekulf's screenshots, an empire consisting of a single planet in a single system generates more Sprawl from Pops than from all other sources. Unless the numbers change drastically, this proportion will only further skew in favor of the Pops as the game goes on, to the point where they'll become the single biggest source of Sprawl.

Now, "tall" empires aren't empires that have fewer Pops. It happens, but is not desirable, because Pops mean production. What's currently a successful "tall" empire is one that managed to pack as many or more Pops than their competitors while generating less Sprawl from expansion. You achieve that by investing heavily in Habitats, Ecumenopoli and Ringworlds, which all generate more Jobs/Housing per point of Sprawl added compared to normal planets. This will no longer be the case with Pops being the primary contributor to Sprawl. Instead, to keep your Sprawl penalty in check, you have two choices - either you create a smaller empire with fewer Pops and accept that you won't be able to play in the big league, or you maintain an optimal ratio of Cap-generating Jobs for your empire. The former isn't so much "playing tall" as it is "playing inefficiently", and the latter doesn't reward you for limiting your territorial gains in any way - the more you have overall, the more bureaucrats you can pack while still maintaining optimal production levels of everything else. So, instead of "tall vs wide" we'll have "wide with optimized Spraw/Cap ratio" vs "wide with unoptimized Sprawl/Cap ratio" as the new meta, with territorially small empires simply lagging behind.

So no, it doesn't sound like a "tall" empire could get by. At all, not just using any particular strategy.
 

morangias

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Really? Now that's an interesting, well-reasoned argument for your case!

So, to sum up:

My position is that tying research costs to sprawl fundamentally makes sense because research costs clearly include implementation costs, as evidenced by all technologies that would clearly require a large-scale societal change to apply their bonuses consistently across the entire empire, but do not carry such cost in any other form (decision, policy, special project, etc.).

Your position is that tying research cost to sprawl makes no sense, and if I think differently, I must be either working for Paradox or not be very smart.

I'll let the spectators decide who made a better case.
 

CPR

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Ok everyone. Let me jump in here. :)

Dev Diaries and productivity:
I think every regular here got to know Paradox's development cycle well enough to know that when dev diaries start, the devs usually begin with more low-profile changes and base-game reworks, before moving on to major announcements. It's the same this time around, so there's no need to assume otherwise.

The fact is that PDX Con is getting closer and since it's Paradox's biggest yearly event, obviously major announcements are going to happen there and more "meaty" features will be talked about the closer we get to it. This is part of the reason why dev dairies are happening bi-weekly for the time being, so let me end speculation that work has stalled in any way. The team is back from holidays and working as hard as ever.

The other reason why we resumed Dev Diaries already and opted for a bi-weekly DD is because we know that, especially after a holiday break, many of you have questions about whether the team is back in the office. That is one of the ways to show you that everyone is indeed here and one of the reasons why we started off with a "filler" Dev Diary about what the team has worked on during their holidays.

The frequency of Dev Diaries is undergoing some testing at the minute. We're holding onto a lot of info for PDX Con to give the team a really nice, big stage show announcement that you're not going to want to miss. Also, they do take a lot of time to formulate and doing this on a weekly basis with what many would consider 'filler' content would take away from development time. We're open to feedback on this, and if weekly is what you're after then it's worth noting that this would also mean an increase of this selfsame 'filler' content. The frequency is something we'd like to continue testing and perhaps changing up the format in the future, so feedback on this is welcomed. Let us know.


Reveal and release cycle:
On another subject. As with all Stellaris releases (with the exception of very early patches and test multiplayer patch branches), we follow a tradition of a free patch mixed with a paid content release. There is no reason to assume this has changed, especially since we *are* approaching PDX Con and "stuff" will be happen there. ;)

What that means for this dev diary specifically is that, as with previous updates, no change is made in a vaccuum and, of course, features discussed in this Dev Diary are followed by balance tweaks to related game systems. On that note, all the feedback you're giving here is always read by someone and is being considered during the development process.


To sum up:
What you're seeing are just the earliest inklings of what is coming next. Let's all be mindful of the looming PDX Con date, that cool stuff is on the way and the devs deserve a good reveal. :)

While I believe I understand where you're coming from and the above does seem reasonable to me, I don't think this addresses the concerns of those players whose main concern is performance. My general impression is that there are a lot of players for whom performance is the number one concern or a major concern - but performance improvements wouldn't be the sort of thing you'd expect to be announced on stage.

In my case, I have about as fast a Mac as it's possible to buy at time of writing. And with the current game I have to use some pretty extreme settings to achieve what I consider to be decent performance beyond 2300 and I've given up trying to play to 2400 or beyond. I don't find this acceptable and while I have all sorts of ideas about things I'd like to see to improve the gameplay, that won't matter much for me if the basic performance isn't there. I have no intention of continuing to play this game unless performance is improved significantly. I'm trying to stay positive but currently I don't feel much incentive to care about shiny new features while the performance situation is what it is. To be blunt, don't expect me to buy any new DLCs without a significant change here.

When I first started playing this game I was impressed how well it performed on very old hardware and now I have pretty much the opposite experience.

To that end, I think it would be helpful for those like me to get some form of communication (dev diary or not) that sets out the following: what performance expectations you (the developers) think users should have for early game, mid game and late game, and whether you believe that you are currently meeting those or not. Bonus points for specifying what sort of hardware (eg older hardware, typical current hardware, top-end modern hardware) and settings (default settings, and those settings that make a big difference to performance).

I'm not saying that there's been no communication about performance - after are there have been dev diaries this year that have gone into a lot of detail. But there's been nothing recently and nothing indicating whether you consider the current performance to be acceptable or not. Which means I can't currently expect to see any significant improvements which is why I'm starting to lose hope in this game.
 

Duuk

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So, instead of "tall vs wide" we'll have "wide with optimized Spraw/Cap ratio" vs "wide with unoptimized Sprawl/Cap ratio" as the new meta, with territorially small empires simply lagging behind.

So no, it doesn't sound like a "tall" empire could get by. At all, not just using any particular strategy.
This. There isn't a TALL vs WIDE meta anymore. Because TALL (ie: habitat/terraforming/ringworlding) and stacking pops to the sky is now the bulk of sprawl. You're better off going wide for the ability to build Trantor I, Trantor II, etc
 

BlackUmbrellas

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Now, "tall" empires aren't empires that have fewer Pops.
POP count and planet count are the only meaningful measure of an empire's size. An empire with five systems but fifty planets via terraforming and habitats and ringworlds isn't meaningfully "tall" compared to an empire with a hundred systems and fifty planets.
 

morangias

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POP count and planet count are the only meaningful measure of an empire's size. An empire with five systems but fifty planets via terraforming and habitats and ringworlds isn't meaningfully "tall" compared to an empire with a hundred systems and fifty planets.
Your definition of "tall" was never viable in Stellaris, because acquiring new colonies vs upgrading existing ones was never a meaningful choice - you're supposed to do both, not pick one. What you call playing tall is actually playing inefficiently. What I'm talking about is the only viable venue of "tall" play Stellaris has ever had, and it only really existed since 2.2.
 

Methone

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POP count and planet count are the only meaningful measure of an empire's size. An empire with five systems but fifty planets via terraforming and habitats and ringworlds isn't meaningfully "tall" compared to an empire with a hundred systems and fifty planets.
It precisely is, not because of the end state, but in how it gets to that 'five systems but fifty planets' stage.
 

morangias

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It precisely is, not because of the end state, but in how it gets to that 'five systems but fifty planets' stage.
Yeah, you're investing a lot to pack all that stuff in just five systems. And in return, you get a much better Sprawl/Cap ratio than the guy who got fifty planets across a hundred systems, both thanks to having fewer systems and due to having more Sprawl-efficient colonies.

At the end of the day, one definition of "tall" everyone here agrees on is having a small admin penalty or no penalty whatsoever and using it to rush Tech/Traditions. An empire with 50 sprawl-efficient colonies across five systems achieves this as much as an empire of five Sprawl-inefficient colonies does, but the former is also quite competitive.
 

Person012345

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If you look at grekulf's screenshots, an empire consisting of a single planet in a single system generates more Sprawl from Pops than from all other sources. Unless the numbers change drastically, this proportion will only further skew in favor of the Pops as the game goes on, to the point where they'll become the single biggest source of Sprawl.

Now, "tall" empires aren't empires that have fewer Pops. It happens, but is not desirable, because Pops mean production. What's currently a successful "tall" empire is one that managed to pack as many or more Pops than their competitors while generating less Sprawl from expansion. You achieve that by investing heavily in Habitats, Ecumenopoli and Ringworlds, which all generate more Jobs/Housing per point of Sprawl added compared to normal planets. This will no longer be the case with Pops being the primary contributor to Sprawl. Instead, to keep your Sprawl penalty in check, you have two choices - either you create a smaller empire with fewer Pops and accept that you won't be able to play in the big league, or you maintain an optimal ratio of Cap-generating Jobs for your empire. The former isn't so much "playing tall" as it is "playing inefficiently", and the latter doesn't reward you for limiting your territorial gains in any way - the more you have overall, the more bureaucrats you can pack while still maintaining optimal production levels of everything else. So, instead of "tall vs wide" we'll have "wide with optimized Spraw/Cap ratio" vs "wide with unoptimized Sprawl/Cap ratio" as the new meta, with territorially small empires simply lagging behind.

So no, it doesn't sound like a "tall" empire could get by. At all, not just using any particular strategy.
Yep, this is the problem with pops causing sprawl. It hurts tall empires, who have just as many pops but have less space - and the things that come with that - to offset the negative effects. The idea of sprawl, as I understood it, was to work towards tall vs wide balance but the notion of making pops contribute to sprawl (as they already used to do btw, before it was called sprawl) is completely contrary to that goal.

The point of tall empires isn't less population, that's just infeasible and getting more pops all the time is the meat of the game anyway. The point of tall empires is to squeeze out what you can with what you have in a smaller space. It's less efficient than blobbing in a completely equal scenario (because more stuff = more better) which is why you need to try and approximate the sociological and administrative problems of dispersion in order to make tall competitive the way it can be in real life. Tall empires compete by becoming more efficient more quickly whilst wide empires compete by having easier access more quickly.

The sprawl mechanic is supposed to provide this by making sure that if you stay in a relatively compact space, with fewer systems, fewer physical colonies, fewer districts, having less "stuff", you have an easier time getting technologies, traditions and ascension perks, issuing edicts and so on, things that make your empire more able to get as much stuff out of your lesser amount of stuff as the people with more stuff and ultimately, build your own stuff. That's the general idea, ymmv on whether it achieves this. But all production relies on pops. There will never be a situation where you can have less pops and get more stuff unless pops have like, negative-efficiency, in which case you've just broken the game. So by penalising pops, you penalise everyone equally and empires that rely more on those efficiency gains suffer compared to those that brute force as much stuff as they can with less efficiency.
 

Ravielsk

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To be entirely honest this is an godawful idea. The economy after 2.2 is based around spamming as many pops as you can and this directly goes against that. Not to mention it once again adds more micromanagement to an already micro heavy game. The game does not need more tedious mechanics it needs more strategical options, diplomacy, subversion or need to choose one technology over others. You know things that actually enable some new gameplay possibilities.

This this just adds one more option to fill up your build spot with.
 

YourHope

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Why should organics and machines be balanced? The AI are as smart compared to us as we are compared to apes.
After all Stellaris doesn't pretend to be esport ready. Just let me play those fancy little robots, our near-future overlords.
 

morangias

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Why should organics and machines be balanced? The AI are as smart compared to us as we are compared to apes.
After all Stellaris doesn't pretend to be esport ready. Just let me play those fancy little robots, our near-future overlords.
There are fun imbalances and not so fun imbalances in games. Machines being as good as they are now is not particularly fun.
 

calen

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This is an awful idea. The fact that you have to wait for a building slot to open up to increase your administrative capacity is going to tire the players hands. This is little more than an anti-fun mechanic that serves no real purpose other than to arbitrarily punish the player for playing the game.