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Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.

upload_2019-8-29_10-40-35.png

Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-13.png

We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-49.png

The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-12.png

Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-48.png

For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.

upload_2019-8-29_10-43-26.png


Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
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BlackUmbrellas

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Seriously.

It's not even just that they're making a designated tall empire that bugs me, but it's that it's Machines. The ones for which HALF their playstyles are map painters. Not to mention they already have a designated tall empire in Megacorps.

I hope this summer experiment stays there; in summer.
They could just... give Exterminators and Assimilators an extra buff that counters (partially or wholely) the Admin Cap penalties Machine Intelligence empires get. Somebody brought this up previously, I don't think you ever acknowledged it.

Alternatively, you could accept that the benefits of going wide for an Exterminator or Assimilator will, quite likely, outweigh the penalties.
 

adil3tr

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Administrators should be renamed. But I think that different empire types should generate sprawl differently, not just have different penalties. Maybe robots have more from planets but less from pops, which makes more sense than having a lot of robots in the capital causing you to hit your cap.
 

UltimateTobi

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Starnet has a few events which make AI doomstack a bit (once in a while they trigger and give AI orders to move one fleets towards the "flag-fleet". Notably these events do not merge fleets since somehow it's not possible to issue mergign command from a mod). Obviously, paradox AI has precedence and these events can't be a replacement for good hardcoded AI
Interesting.
I remember it must be a pain in the ass to have events to make the AI behave in such a way.
But very much agreed, PDX must improve Mil AI.
Might be a good idea, although I feel like some people would start being very vocal about "cheating AI" if they got extra fleetcap. Maybe have it as a separate mod? Would probably be great indeed.
Perhaps as an add-on mod, but I am no modder.
But it's good to keep this option in mind.

I think PDX should incentivize splitting fleets, for example large fleets and/or multiple fleets in close proximity causing higher upkeep and less efficiency.
I am not much of a game designer also, just throwing out ideas.

But my DEMAND (humble request) stands: PDX, please improve Mil AI!
 

AlphaAsh

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Issues with the AI not increasing Naval Cap are that the AI cannot currently develop starbases properly (starbase development is entirely bugged right now). They rely on techs, the relevant tradition, an AP, and any bonus they happen upon from soldier jobs, which is mostly an accident, since the AI's use of buildings providing Soldier jobs is broken, and tactical use of Martial Law is broken.

I did a few things in AlphaMod to fix the issue:
- Fixed starbase development.
- The AI builds anchorages. Crew Quarters gives a Naval Cap bonus.
- Changed the Military Academy to give a Soldier job per 20 pops.
- Made the AI actually build it.
- Made the AI use Martial Law tactically.
 

UltimateTobi

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Issues with the AI not increasing Naval Cap are that the AI cannot currently develop starbases properly (starbase development is entirely bugged right now). They rely on techs, the relevant tradition, an AP, and any bonus they happen upon from soldier jobs, which is mostly an accident, since the AI's use of buildings providing Soldier jobs is broken, and tactical use of Martial Law is broken.

I did a few things in AlphaMod to fix the issue:
- Fixed starbase development.
- The AI builds anchorages. Crew Quarters gives a Naval Cap bonus.
- Changed the Military Academy to give a Soldier job per 20 pops.
- Made the AI actually build it.
- Made the AI use Martial Law tactically.
Nav Cap is fixed by fixing the Economy AI, however Fleet Command is the culprit of small fleets, which are then uncoordinated and get picked off one by one. If they'd reliably doom stack when necessary, this wouldn't be a problem, but they don't.
@M@ni@c rose Fleet Command, not Nav Cap, which resulted in bigger fleets.
 

Breadbox

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Much of this does not sound balanced or interesting at all, at least not in the ‘build maintenance buildings to counteract expanding population’ sort of way. There is barely enough building slots as it is, much of the Empire maintenance is already about ‘build more maintenance buildings to accommodate larger populations’.
Making admin capacity matter is a fine, as is methods to expand them, but the implementation of it however sounds mind numbing.

Population costing admin cap would penalise smaller empires as well, isn’t districts costing admin caps enough? Why would pops costing admin cap be necessary?

It feels like the game is too focused on endlessly tinkering with internal management at this point, not about interacting with other states or anything exciting.The idea to make Machines small and Hive minds wide is completely arbitrary as well.

Maybe it is time to improve the external interaction aspect, not add another layer of mind numbing population maintenance on top of three other layers of population maintenance because you saw something funny. This AI can barely handle the byzantine levels of management as it is.

I hope this is not what the game will be heading towards in the future, even more Byzantine internal management is not what the game needs or deserves at all.
 

kalauer

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In addition, machines in general focusing on tall builds kinda contradicts what their 100% habitability encourages, settling on a wide variety of planets.
Not necessarily. It just means you can pick the planets you want to settle and take the best ones instead of just any planet you get your cold, dead hands on. Like those pathetic, mortal meat sacks have to...
 

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Really exciting. I hope one of these next steps is to encourage players to split their empires into vassals when they grow large enough, like with demesnes in CK2 or autonomy and territories in EU4. I know I've been harping on about this for a while, but the idea of empires rising and falling, or at least rising and fragmenting this way would be good for both immersion and gameplay.


Also, come next patch I might just make an ecumenopolis for the purpose of bureaucracy and name it Trantor :p .
 

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Much of this does not sound balanced or interesting at all, at least not in the ‘build maintenance buildings to counteract expanding population’ sort of way. There is barely enough building slots as it is, much of the Empire maintenance is already about ‘build more maintenance buildings to accommodate larger populations’.
Making admin capacity matter is a fine, as is methods to expand them, but the implementation of it however sounds mind numbing.
I see it as an anti-snowball mechanic. If you build a huge empire and you insist on ruling all of it directly rather than handing off control of sectors to governours who will rule them as vassals, be prepared to have to dedicate a larger and larger proportion of your economy to bureaucracy. Like in the Foundation novel, where a whole planet has to be dedicated to the running of a large and centralised Galactic Empire.

It feels like the game is too focused on endlessly tinkering with internal management at this point, not about interacting with other states or anything exciting.The idea to make Machines small and Hive minds wide is completely arbitrary as well.
I would think machines would be really good at managing a large empire. I suppose it's to nerf machine empires, though, I'm no min-maxer/MPer/expert, but I understand the forum consensus seems to be they are pretty OP.
 

AlphaAsh

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...however Fleet Command is the culprit of small fleets, which are then uncoordinated and get picked off one by one. If they'd reliably doom stack when necessary, this wouldn't be a problem, but they don't...

Which of Maniac's mods sorts this? I'd like to give it a go to see if it belongs in one of my collections so subs can benefit.
 

i8theNet

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The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity.
When corporations were introduced it seemed admin cap was introduced at that time to allow for a "soft" concept. Now you are just going back.
What worries me is there was no mention of corporations in this diary and that is exactly why we have administrative cap and now you are saying it is going to be a hard cap "ideally". Seems if you do nothing corporations become way OP. Likely you will do something and nerf the snot out of them in response, which would be disappointing.
 

sillyrobot

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Much of this does not sound balanced or interesting at all, at least not in the ‘build maintenance buildings to counteract expanding population’ sort of way. There is barely enough building slots as it is, much of the Empire maintenance is already about ‘build more maintenance buildings to accommodate larger populations’.
Making admin capacity matter is a fine, as is methods to expand them, but the implementation of it however sounds mind numbing.

Population costing admin cap would penalise smaller empires as well, isn’t districts costing admin caps enough? Why would pops costing admin cap be necessary?

It feels like the game is too focused on endlessly tinkering with internal management at this point, not about interacting with other states or anything exciting.The idea to make Machines small and Hive minds wide is completely arbitrary as well.

Maybe it is time to improve the external interaction aspect, not add another layer of mind numbing population maintenance on top of three other layers of population maintenance because you saw something funny. This AI can barely handle the byzantine levels of management as it is.

I hope this is not what the game will be heading towards in the future, even more Byzantine internal management is not what the game needs or deserves at all.

My personal mod includes pops costing admin cap instead of districts. A fully populated colony provides just about as much admin cap as before. Not only did I prefer the "feel", it means I can pre-build colonies and only lose energy until the pop fills in.

I tend to agree abut the endless tinkering. Especially with systems that a player interacts with alone. It'd be nice if some effort was expended on bulding systems where a player interacts with the other civilizations.
 

M@ni@c

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Will they merge the split fleet back together though? Or remain seperated and build ships for both fleets?
Or do you mean they build a second fleet next to their main stack?

Hmm, good questions. I'm afraid I don't know all the answers. I've been reviewing a couple save files to see if I can find some patterns. As long as the AI has never gone to war yet, they just pile all their ships in one big stack. As for what happens after it got split up somehow, I am more unsure. I have anecdotal memories of some opponents still having a huge single doomstack even after several wars, but on reviewing my saves, there are also many examples of an AI still having a couple fleets. So partly I may just be focusing too much on the examples where it did doomstack. Though even in the situations where they have a couple smaller fleets, they usually still have a larger one whose size is bigger than their command limit would normally have allowed. So while it is not a miracle cure, I'd say it's still an improvement over vanilla.

I also discovered some cases where the AI had two fleets, the reason being their total fleet size was bigger than the command limit, even with me adding +200. So I'll test further, now with +500 command limit.

I'll upload a mod later, though it's really just a mini-mini-mod. I just changed the static modifiers for the AI difficulty levels.

Edit: Make the AI Doomstack uploaded. That one took me five minutes. Also uploaded The Butlerian Jihad civic mod. That one took me a couple hours. ;)
 
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TurtleShroom

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Seriously. It's not even just that they're making a designated tall empire that bugs me, but it's that it's Machines. The ones for which HALF their playstyles are map painters. Not to mention they already have a designated tall empire in Megacorps.

The funniest part is that I actually like the re-work of Administrative Capacity and, unlike the other experiments run over the summer, I think this one is a good idea. I have wanted a Building and Job that expands Administrative Capacity for a long, long time. As it stands, a game is not as fun without the Administrative State Mod, which adds plentiful cap-raising buildings and the Bureaucrat Job.

I hope this summer experiment stays there; in summer.

This will really hurt my Rogue Servitor games, because I try to go as wide as I can with them, in order to protect the most Pops possible.
 

LukaKlasic

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It would be better if you optimize the game then move on adding and improving the system in game. Late game is completely bugged and very slow. I got to year 2800 and it was running in 10FPS while it was taking 4GB of ram at that point. Please Paradox optimize the late game.
 

Piotrzeci

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Why build an admin cap building, if you can have a lab instead? The building takes a slot and is totally unexciting as it produces nothing. I'll just go back to ignoring the cap and it will be fine.

Also making the ME just worse at expanding is not exactly a fun way of curtaining them.