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Stellaris Dev Diary #153 - Empire Sprawl & Administrative Capacity

Hello everyone!
We’re back with yet another dev diary to showcase some more fruits of summer experimentation. As with the previous dev diary, this involved a lot of work carried out during the summer and involves something I’ve wanted to explore for a good while now.

Today we’ll be talking about empire sprawl and administrative capacity. Do note that these changes are still fairly young in their development, so numbers and implementation details may not be representative of what it will look like in the end.

As a background, I can mention that I have a grander idea of where I want to take these mechanics, but it will not all happen at once. These changes aim to mimic state bureaucracy or overhead created by managing a large empire. As a minor aspect I also wanted you to be able to experience the funny absurdity of having a planet entirely dedicated to bureaucracy. The movie Brazil is a great source of inspiration here :)

Empire Sprawl
We wanted to expand on how empire sprawl is used, so that it becomes a more interesting mechanic. The largest change means that pops now increase empire sprawl. Most things in your empire should be increasing empire sprawl to various degrees, to represent the administrative burden they impose.

upload_2019-8-29_10-40-35.png

Empire Sprawl can now be modified from its different sources, and as an example, the Courier Networks expansion tradition will now reduce empire sprawl caused directly by the number of planets and systems. As another example shows, the Harmony traditions finisher now reduces the total empire sprawl caused by all your pops.

We are also able to modify how much empire sprawl each pop contributes, and we’ve added a couple of new species traits that affect it. There are also machine variants of these traits.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-13.png

We have also increased the penalty for the amount of empire sprawl that exceeds your administrative capacity. The goal is not to make administrative a hard cap, but we want to make it necessary to invest some of your resources into increasing your administrative capacity. More on that later.

upload_2019-8-29_10-41-49.png

The current plan is for machine empires to be more reliant on keeping their administrative capacity in line with their empire sprawl, so machine empires will suffer a much harsher penalty for exceeding their cap. We want machines to feel “centralized” and to perhaps favor a more “tall” playstyle.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-12.png

Hive Minds, on the other hand, should be more tolerant of a sprawling empire where unmanaged drones are able to fall back on their instincts whenever they cannot maintain a responsive connection to the hive mind. Therefore, hive minds should be more tolerant of a “wide” playstyle.

Administrative Capacity
With all these changes to empire sprawl, what about administrative capacity, I imagine you asking? Well, since empire sprawl is becoming an expanded concept, administrative capacity will naturally be a part of that. Increasing your administrative capacity will now be a part of planning your empire’s economy.

upload_2019-8-29_10-42-48.png

For regular empires, the bureaucrat is a new job that increases your administrative capacity at the cost of consumer goods. This is also a specialist job, and has needs accordingly. Administrators are unchanged, and do not currently affect administrative capacity or bureaucrats.

For machine empires, the coordinators have changed roles from producing unity to now increasing administrative capacity instead, and they are more effective than bureaucrats. A new job called Evaluators now produce unity for machine empires.

Hive Minds currently have the hardest time to produce administrative capacity, but it has been added as a function of the synapse drone job.

upload_2019-8-29_10-43-26.png


Certain sources that previously increased administrative capacity by a static amount now increase is by a percentage amount instead. This doesn’t affect the output of the jobs, but rather increases the total administrative capacity directly.

Summary
Personally I’m very excited for these changes and I’m very much looking forward to taking it to its next step in the future. I hope you enjoyed reading about the changes that will come to Stellaris sometime later this year. As always, we’ll be interested to hear your thoughts.

As mentioned in last week’s dev diary, the schedule for dev diaries will now be bi-weekly, so the next dev diary will be in another 2 weeks.
 
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PhroX

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Seen a few people already suggesting it here, but I'd really like distance from capital (and perhaps other administrative focused planets) affect sprawl in some way. I love the Communication Efficiency mechanic in M&T (the EU4 mod), incorporating something along those lines into Stellaris would be great.
 

Erik3003

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Limiting administrative offices to (sector) capitals could be an interesting and logical addition to the system. It would add another tactical layer to founding sectors selecting sector capitals and it would place more incentive to creating more sectors. With sectors planned to be extended, probably with internal politics, this could make for an interesting dichotomy between having less sectors with less internal conflicts and having many sectors with more administrative power, i.e. tall and wide being viable and distinct with different problems and advantages.
 

DanielPrates

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It's not, and it wont be.

We already know the next Big Thing for Stellaris is going to be a diplomacy-focused update and DLC.

What a peremptory answer.

FYI, I don't think the next PDX thing is going to be Stellaris 2 (I have my bets placed on a spectacular return of 'east vs west'). I was trying to be humorous of course. I think you were too, when a couple of posts down the line, you came up with a complex extrapolation algorithm to predict the next DLC. Weren't you?

I have to agree with the several posts following your prediction algorithm. If anything, the idea of a roadmap was faint and the following DDs blurred that even further. Today there is NO clear aim for the current development cycle, something we had grown accustomed to. If a previous DD said "this is a skecth of a roadmap, no promises", and the next DDs wander aimlessly at small stuff, becomes fainter in content, goes bi-weekly, well, its clear that the pace has halted. Just take a look at the last two.

Don't bother debating this with me, I want to be proven wrong, and I would warmly welcome someone who could show me that I am wrong. However your arguments and prediction algorithm didn't to it for me.

You'll all see in next DD if this is becoming a tendency or not. I expect a DD with some secondary mechanic being tweaked in an experimental fashion, and words like "we tried this, we tried that, we are not happy with so and so, anyways it was a good experience, can't get into details, see you in two weeks". Less than I would expect from one of PDX's main titles.

Again I'll say it: the dev team could be excused for going months without as much as a hello, if afterwards they could show that they sat down, thought the game through and thoroughly, and can say "allright, the next big thing is this:". Whatever it is. Insofar it seems that "thing" is unclear even to them.
 

FinellyTrained

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I don't think it will work. First, judging by the pic in the op, pops will give more sprawl than systems, planets and districts combined. It probably incentivises wide style of play, because additional systems don't really hurt. Second, we don't have mechanisms for population control and don't even get me started on how user-friendly are the options to click through a hundred of species to change their rights or several dozen of planets to enact or lift the population control. Third, currently we can somewhat effectively limit sprawl, but keep the pops growing to somewhat match effectiveness with economic power. If growing pops means more sprawl, I suppose all players will be forced into this ferris wheel, which you need to run faster and faster in to keep at the current level. In other words, if pops give most sprawl, everybody will have to just suck it up and suffer, which pretty much removes the choice to keep small and effective vs going wide and big. Anyway, tests will probably help. :)
 

UltimateTobi

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I've seen this claim being thrown around quite a lot lately, but couldn't find any dev diary/tweet/whatever to substantiate it. Do you have any source that confirms the next dlc will really be diplomacy-focuses?
Also @Wiz's live stream one year ago outlined this; the last two big things to tackle were Economy and Diplomacy/Politics.
Economy's been done. Diplomacy/Politics is left.
 

UltimateTobi

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I came to this realization upon switching to Starnet AI.
StarNet AI does not improve combat capability tho; no AI mod ever did nor will. Military AI is hard coded.
It''ll only throw more Alloys your way but won't coordinate attacks and will therefor never be a challange, unless improved.
How often did I beat Superior or Overwhelming empires simply because I doom stacked and they didn't.
 

methegrate

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I'm kind of pessimistic with those change , it don't seem fun nor fix the problem of ultra wide playstyle but it give one more reason to AI to screw itself ...
It seems to be a " cumulate bonus and keep it in the green " thing (like amenities)
Basically : put a building to increase admin cap when it's too high .

This is my biggest concern. I love the idea of empire sprawl actually being a practical issue in the game, but if we can build admin-workers it does feel like this risks just being another maintenance cost that you keep green and otherwise ignore.
 

dgtexan

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It's probably already been suggested, but I'm not going to read through 14 pages of content. Sorry!

Please, PLEASE let there be a branch office building that grants some small measure of admin capacity. I know it has the potential to snowball and effectively places only an upfront cost to the branch office mechanic, but that's still eating up one building slot in some very precious real estate. As well, it allows megacorps to be even more of a benefit to a team by allowing them to add jobs and bonus to friendly planets. This could open the door to buildings that benefit other stats, like growth or stability or whatever.
 

xeleth12

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I have very mixed feelings about this.
Could be a more interesting mechanic, could be much more of a pain to play massive empires. We'll see how it turns out I guess.
Though (and I precise I know little to nothing about the inner workings of the game) if those mechanics around pops add more calculations.... this'll be a pain. We (many if not most people) already can't play on the bigger sizes... a shame in a grand strategy game.
Pops need to be reworked as a priority as we know it is game breaking performance-wise. Making it harder to play huge empires, trying to get peeps to have much less pops...not the right approach.
Don't add more mechanics, fix your game please.

I might be too high to talk about those things anyways x)
 
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It feels strange that the machines focus on a tall style of play, the only thing I know about them is from exterminators that expand in the galaxy. They are also efficient machines, their processing capacity (I imagine) would allow them to expand a lot. On the other hand they need some kind of nerf, so I am neither happy nor angry, a kind of midpoint with respect to the machine empires.

I agree. Machine empires definitely need a nerf, but this is not how to do it. I would suggest working with energy upkeep instead, maybe making it scale with the number of traits your species has.

It used to be gestalt consciousness was perfect for playing wide because no pirates, and corporate was perfect for playing tall, making them polar opposites. That system is still good
 
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Duuk

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Also @Wiz's live stream one year ago outlined this; the last two big things to tackle were Economy and Diplomacy/Politics.
Economy's been done. Diplomacy/Politics is left.
Wiz isn't in charge anymore. With the way Stellaris works, that means that anything Wiz said should be taken with a grain of salt and assumed to be fluid.
 

MichaelJanuary

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Random thought on the flavor of the Administrator job - maybe just rename it to "Politician"?

I vote for "senator".

"Enter the bureaucrats. The true rulers of the Republic."

I also like the ideas proposed that bureaucrats should be tied into sectors and specifically sector capitals. Would be great to have a sector unique building in sector capital.

A good change overall, at least in direction. Currently admin cap is near meaningless. I have no doubt though that admin cap will still be a soft cap with most empires exceeding it, just that the escalation for playing wrecklessly wide will be steeper rather than easily ignored and irrelevant.
 

M@ni@c

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How often did I beat Superior or Overwhelming empires simply because I doom stacked and they didn't.

A while ago I mentioned I was going to test out simply increasing the command limit for the AI (by 200), and see if that changed their fleet sizes. You asked me to get back to you and report my findings. Well I can tell you that it is a resounding success. My observation is that the AI will almost always keep their fleet in one giant stack, and only split off a second task force if they have a bigger fleet than their enemy.

In related news, yesterday I lost my first game of Stellaris ever, being invaded by a fanatical purifier with an overwhelming fleet power. Ouch...
 

Varatus

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Oh yes please make one of the most annoying mechanics even more annoying *claps* what is the purpose of a galaxy with hundreds of habitable worlds if you make it impossible to colonize more than a dozen without tanking your economy to the ground? Yeah and better add more things to process for the game which totally won't affect the already unbearable late game performance at all (please note the significant amount of sarcasm here), which you have been unwilling to fix for the last 2 years and obviously have no interest in rectifying. I'm already looking forward to the announcement of the next overpriced, game- and performance breaking DLC (please, again, note the sarcasm).

Sorry to the community for the huge amount of salt, I really tried for the love of god to see the good in this game in the past but the way I see it the Devs do not care about the real issues in the game nor the community response. Instead, they try to make that up with funny word plays in the patch notes. I do not expect to see this here long since Paradox has been known to delete posts that critizise the game and their ridiculous dlc politics in such a manner.

Again, I apologize to the community for the pile of salt right here but I can't take it anymore. Goodbye Stellaris, we had a good run.
 

methegrate

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A while ago I mentioned I was going to test out simply increasing the command limit for the AI (by 200), and see if that changed their fleet sizes. You asked me to get back to you and report my findings. Well I can tell you that it is a resounding success. My observation is that the AI will almost always keep their fleet in one giant stack, and only split off a second task force if they have a bigger fleet than their enemy.

In related news, yesterday I lost my first game of Stellaris ever, being invaded by a fanatical purifier with an overwhelming fleet power. Ouch...

I still firmly think that warfare needs two things:

- First, a way to effectively defeat the enemy fleet without engaging it. We sort of have that with anchorages, but they aren't quite enough. In most wars it would take a long time to blow up enough anchorages to really make a difference. (Not that I don't like them. They're critical infrastructure, that's great!)

- Second, mobility. What's the use of adding critical infrastructure if the map always gates it behind chokepoints and FTL inhibitors? Secondary targets only become relevant if the player actually has to worry about the enemy hitting them. Otherwise it's the same-old "gather fleet, attack chokepoint."

Doomstacks will change if I'm looking at the map and thinking "his fleet is out of position, I can attack System A and cut it off" while the enemy is thinking "I can attack Planet B, but need to protect System A in the meantime." Because the fleet is the only relevant thing in a war, that will only happen if there's something in System A that will affect the fleet's ability to fight.
 

lpslucasps

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About the "discrepancies" between the intended tall playstyle for machines and some of its civics (Determined Assimilators and Terminators):

While I understand they seem to clash quite a bit, let us consider that the sprawl malus does not make an aggressive playstyle impossible. A rapidly expanding empire will lose some science/tradition efficiency, but will still get more resources with each conquest and be able to pump up more ships than anyone else. Besides, homicidal empires have other means to compensate the tech/tradition gap, being able to gain unity through purging and having access to reverse engineering because of the constant state of warfare.
 

UltimateTobi

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A while ago I mentioned I was going to test out simply increasing the command limit for the AI (by 200), and see if that changed their fleet sizes. You asked me to get back to you and report my findings. Well I can tell you that it is a resounding success. My observation is that the AI will almost always keep their fleet in one giant stack, and only split off a second task force if they have a bigger fleet than their enemy.

In related news, yesterday I lost my first game of Stellaris ever, being invaded by a fanatical purifier with an overwhelming fleet power. Ouch...
Will they merge the split fleet back together though? Or remain seperated and build ships for both fleets?
Or do you mean they build a second fleet next to their main stack?

In any case, interesting find.
Shame @Glavius isn't working on the mod anymore, else I'd nag him about implementing this as a grander scale experiment.

Maybe we can approach @slv now for StarNet?

Edit: I opened a convo with you two.
 
Last edited:

G S Palmer

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I like the ideas of reintroducing a limit on the number of sectors, as well as scaling the amount of empire sprawl to sector type (ie, core vs normal vs frontier). That would go a long way towards balancing this out, and would also make sense from a real-world perspective.
 

methegrate

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I like the ideas of reintroducing a limit on the number of sectors, as well as scaling the amount of empire sprawl to sector type (ie, core vs normal vs frontier). That would go a long way towards balancing this out, and would also make sense from a real-world perspective.

Perhaps combine that with a real difference in how the sectors work? Maybe frontier sectors have more piracy and produce fewer refined resources than core and normal sectors?

Then you could have a great, sprawling empire, but a hard limit on how far "civilization" can extend at any given time.

You could combine it with the geography of sprawl/admin cap that someone suggested earlier. A system can only be part of a core/normal sector if it's within the range of your empire's admin cap. Otherwise, it's frontier.