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Stellaris Dev Diary #152 - Summer Experimentation

Hello everyone!

Summer vacations are reaching their end and most of the team is back as of last week. Work has started again and we're really excited for what we have in store for the rest of the year.

While most of us have been away during most of the summer, we’ve also had some people who worked during July. July is a very good time to try out different designs and concepts that we might not otherwise have time to do, and today we thought it might be fun for you to see some of the experiments we ran during that period of hiatus.

Although we learned some useful insights, these experiments didn’t end up being good enough to make a reality.

Industrial Districts
As I have mentioned earlier, I have wanted to find a better solution for how we handle the production of alloys and consumer goods. I often felt like the experience of developing a planet felt better with an Ecumenopolis rather than with a regular planet. I think a lot of it had to do with their unique districts and that it feels better to get the jobs from constructing districts rather than buildings. Not necessarily as an emotion reaction to the choice, but rather that the choice perhaps feels more “pure” or simple.

An experiment I wanted to run was to see if it was possible to add an industrial district that provided Laborer jobs, instead of having buildings for Metallurgists and Artisans. Laborers would produce both alloys and consumer goods but could be shifted towards producing more of either.

This meant we added a 5th district, the Industrial District. By adding another district we also needed to reduce the number of building slots available. Since there would be no more need for buildings that produced alloys and consumer goods, this should still end up being similar.

upload_2019-8-15_12-14-17.png

A Laborer would consume 8 minerals to produce 2 alloys and 4 consumer goods, and that amount could be modified in either direction by passing a Decision. What I wanted was to have an industry that could have a military and civilian output, and where you could adjust the values between these outputs.

Having a laborer job that generates an “industrial output”, which could be translated into either alloys or consumer goods did feel good, but the specific solution we used didn’t feel quite right.

City Districts & Building slots
Another experiment was to see how it felt if city districts unlock building slots instead of pops. This experiment didn’t have a specific problem or issue it was trying to address but rather it was to investigate how that would feel and work. It was interesting but ultimately it felt less fun than the current implementation. It would have needed more time to see if it could be made to work.
upload_2019-8-15_12-15-12.png

This experiment did include increasing the number of jobs you would get for the building, so a research lab would provide 3 jobs instead of 2.

City District Jobs from Buildings
At the same time, we also tried a version where buildings applied jobs to city districts instead of providing jobs by themselves. One upside would be that you’d need less micromanagement to get the jobs, but the downside is that it would also be quite a large upswing in new jobs whenever you built a city district. In the end, it felt like you had less control and understanding of what a planet was specializing in.

Summary
Although these experiments were interesting, they didn’t end up quite where we wanted to, so they never became more than just experiments. We did learn some interesting things though, which we will keep in mind for the future. The industrial districts are still something I want to keep looking into, but we have to find a better solution.

Dev diaries will now be back on a regular schedule, but we will be looking into changing the format a bit this time around. For now, dev diaries will be coming bi-weekly, which means we will be back again in another 2 weeks with a similar topic.
 
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Darth.

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-> If I am building habitats/ringworlds, then I *am* colonizing in the late game.
I said colonizing planets.

Also I never said never reaching late game should be an excuse - don't put words in my mouth - but right now, practically speaking, it is what it is.
 

fodazd

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I said colonizing planets.

Also I never said never reaching late game should be an excuse - don't put words in my mouth - but right now, practically speaking, it is what it is.

OK, then I don't know what you were trying to say. Ringworlds still have basic resource production done by worker stratum and alloys/cg/research by specialists, even if they have a research-district available. They also have the same building-slot system as planets.
 

ccabal86

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I will say that I'm somewhat relieved that the industrial district idea was shelved. Honestly it isn't bad the way it is now, where you have to "work" a bit for those tier 2 resources.

EDIT: Also another thing. The present system gives purpose to those "mediocre" planets you get, the ones with some space, but not too great agriculture/mining/energy production. You can still develop them into specialized, strategically important worlds
 
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Methone

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I will say that I'm somewhat relieved that the industrial district idea was shelved. Honestly it isn't bad the way it is now, where you have to "work" a bit for those tier 2 resources.
Not to mention the 'reduced building slots' picture was ugly as all get out.
 

Kayden_II

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Not necessarily as an emotion reaction to the choice, but rather that the choice perhaps feels more “pure” or simple.
The base-concept for regular worlds was already "pure" and simple: City-Districts and "extractive" districts to "extract" the "natural" / "primary" resources ( food, energy and minerals ). What's more promising: Turn exotic gases, rare crystals and volatile motes into "natural" / "primary" resources as well and make districts for them, too ...

Laborers would produce both alloys and consumer goods but could be shifted towards producing more of either.
I'm "OK" with the situation, that each building / job / what-ever needs a zillion different and FIXED inputs to function, but please stop to move forward with buildings / jobs / what-ever, which produce a zillion different and FIXED outputs as well: Either implement buildings / jobs / what-ever, which produce one, again one specific output or implement "general" buildings / jobs / what-ever, which could be further adjusted ( on the empire-level ) via sliders: For example: A "general" science-building, which produces (for example) 6 research-points. I've builded (for example) 4 of them on my colonies. On the empire-level, I've a slider to adjust my actual physics-/society-/engineering-output: I've adjusted (for example) a 50%-25%-25%-ratio, so that my empire produces 12-6-6 research-points in physics, society and engineering ...

Another experiment was to see how it felt if city districts unlock building slots instead of pops.
It was interesting but ultimately it felt less fun than the current implementation.
That's not very convincing: The unlocking of building-slots via POP-numbers has several problems, which aren't very "funny" either: The "spontaneous" ruin of buildings via killed / migrated POPs or the "exploitation" to unlock building-slots via a zillion of "cheap" slaves (since 5 of them unlock a building-slot as well as (for example) 5 "expensive" rulers) or the "continuous" / "micro-heavy" observation or / and adjustment of your colonies aka the "waiting"-game or / and the "resettlement"-game, that 1 of your colonies has got 5 additional POPs, so that 1 additional building-slot is unlocked, so that you're (finally) allowed to order / construct your next building. What's more promising: Take the housing since it's the "best" compromise of both (POPs vs. city-districts).
 
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AlphaAsh

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Not to mention the 'reduced building slots' picture was ugly as all get out.

UI constraints aren't really a concern. This is AlphaMod, and I've managed to have six districts and 18 building slots.

uinonissue.png


I think it looks just fine.

(The sixth district type is the Community District, which can be swapped to an ethic-specialised district type. The Industrial District can also be swapped to something more specialised.)
 
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Methone

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Tim_Ward

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Having a laborer job that generates an “industrial output”, which could be translated into either alloys or consumer goods did feel good, but the specific solution we used didn’t feel quite right.

There's already an economic policy... policy which does this?

Doing it on a per-planet basis would be too microy, probably.
 

BlackUmbrellas

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There's already an economic policy... policy which does this?

Doing it on a per-planet basis would be too microy, probably.
It doesn't actually do the same thing.

"Industrial Output" that is then split between Alloys and Consumer Goods based on policies is actually quite different from buffing and debuffing separate Alloy and Consumer Good incomes.
 

Roddo

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I see the column of smoke from the hype train coming closer and closer, and here I am with a game I barely play already.
Sorry, I don't think I can climb up that wagon again.

Have a good trip ppl. Wish you the best.
 

Aed

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Very big fan of the industrial districts idea, it just feels right. Probably because its much simpler than the current system, where resource generation is scattered between districts and buildings (and that is situational to boot!)

Personally I think that all resources should solely come from districts. So we get a Industrial district (alloys and CG), Science district (Research), Culture District (unity and amenities) and Refinery District (motes, crystals and gases). You could also tweak city districts to have more clerks jobs so they can act as trade districts.

Buildings could then be reserved for planet unique things like production modifiers, shields, pop growth boosts etc.
 

NilsFabian

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Having a laborer job that generates an “industrial output”, which could be translated into either alloys or consumer goods did feel good, but the specific solution we used didn’t feel quite right.
I hope you will still be following this line of thought. It seems easier and more fitting to have something like this.
The ammount of Alloys is always to low in order to cope with an Empires need.
At least it would be nice to have a Wonder for Alloys, like some sort of Star Forge or such.
 

Prolbo

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Well... Its balance and strong gameplay changing thing. I have complicated feelings about this.

While alloys is optional (even if so hardly wanted/needed), consumer goods is kinda essential thing for normals, so it have some sence for such a district. From the other side: planet_size balancing, jobs and production balancing, play style balancing (hives and machines heil you) and tonns of other ssit. I have doubts.

Also you should make convenient mechanism for production redistribution. Alloy/CS % output control.
 

Madzai

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Sigh.... I keep saying it since day one - making alloys\GC by buildings isn't a good decision since original (and i mean the very first mention) of alloy idea was dropped( It was kind of a more specialized resource than it's now). Now it's just another mandatory resource and forcing it into buildings create real issues like ME OPness (along with other things) and Foundries being basically a no-choice in early game. Not to mention that requiring a lot of POP to build foundries factories also makes not too much sense as them being specialists jobs (how factory worker is less specialist than technician?). If anything, it's better to add different specialists jobs that improve specific resource production.

Also, linking building slots to City districts is also a good decision. BUT it should work so City District and amount of POP both are required for a building slot. In return, buildings need an upgrade to their efficiency.
 

Millbot

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I'm going to second the idea of having additional districts. I'd also add research as a sixth district that normal empires get. That would leave us with

-generator districts (energy)
-agricultural districts (food)
-mining districts (minerals)
-industrial districts (alloys & consumer goods)
-research districts (science production)
-city districts (housing & amenities)

Also pairing that with less buildings slots, would probably solve the issue that we run into with small worlds & habitats, where some creativity is needed at times to get the last building slots open. Less building slots means needing less pops to fully maximize use on a planet.

I'm not sure research labs, alloy foundries or consumer industry building art adds much. Granted there is always the option to keep those structures and either making them limited in how many a world can have or have some sort of planetary feature that allows for them to be built.

This approach seems like a better one. I'd also argue from an art standpoint, depending on how you setup the UI, it might allow for bigger pictures that can be more detailed. I also like this in that can make housing needs match a little better with job needs, since that's more jobs that come with housing.
 

MartinSWE

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Personally I love the idea of industrial districts and hope they make it into tthe game in one way or another. I think it could also be easier for the AI to manage (maybe) ?
 

tobias.mb

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Industrial Districts
Instead of uncapped industrial district, did you try something along the lines of adding some unique deposits, that add some special districts (maybe 2-4 and only one type per planet) for advanced resources?
Some planets get extra metallurgists, others get extra researchers or more culture workers. Or maybe simply a better version of the basic resource districts - e.g. betharian could allow you to build 4 jobs districts.
These are not meant to replace buildings though. It's just to make planets feel more special and give a strong incentive to specialise them instead of all planets being basically the same. But at least in the early game it can probably reduce the need for buildings a lot, as long as you settle the "right" planets.
City Districts & Building slots
That sounds basically like the infrastructure mechanic, that was planned pre release at some point. Since it was replaced with the current pop based mechanic I'm not surprised you got the same result once more. ;)
However: have you considered a mixed mechanic? i.e. keep building slots per pops as it is now but reduce it to 1 slot / 10pops and compensate by adding +1 slot on cities. It would allow us to unlock a building slot whenever we really need one (mostly I would use it to unlock the first one for a robot factory). Also some nerf for livestock / purge words is needed!
City District Jobs from Buildings
That honestly sounds really intriguing. I hope you'll at least not entirely forget about it! However, I feel this might conflict with the advanced districts on city- and ringworlds. What's the difference between an research segment and a city segment with lots of research buildings to add researches to the city segment?
Also wasn't jobs / pop tested at some point pre release? I think I remember a DD about how the commercial zone worked like this. The properity tradition should be a relic of this, no?
 
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