• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellaris Dev Diary #152 - Summer Experimentation

Hello everyone!

Summer vacations are reaching their end and most of the team is back as of last week. Work has started again and we're really excited for what we have in store for the rest of the year.

While most of us have been away during most of the summer, we’ve also had some people who worked during July. July is a very good time to try out different designs and concepts that we might not otherwise have time to do, and today we thought it might be fun for you to see some of the experiments we ran during that period of hiatus.

Although we learned some useful insights, these experiments didn’t end up being good enough to make a reality.

Industrial Districts
As I have mentioned earlier, I have wanted to find a better solution for how we handle the production of alloys and consumer goods. I often felt like the experience of developing a planet felt better with an Ecumenopolis rather than with a regular planet. I think a lot of it had to do with their unique districts and that it feels better to get the jobs from constructing districts rather than buildings. Not necessarily as an emotion reaction to the choice, but rather that the choice perhaps feels more “pure” or simple.

An experiment I wanted to run was to see if it was possible to add an industrial district that provided Laborer jobs, instead of having buildings for Metallurgists and Artisans. Laborers would produce both alloys and consumer goods but could be shifted towards producing more of either.

This meant we added a 5th district, the Industrial District. By adding another district we also needed to reduce the number of building slots available. Since there would be no more need for buildings that produced alloys and consumer goods, this should still end up being similar.

upload_2019-8-15_12-14-17.png

A Laborer would consume 8 minerals to produce 2 alloys and 4 consumer goods, and that amount could be modified in either direction by passing a Decision. What I wanted was to have an industry that could have a military and civilian output, and where you could adjust the values between these outputs.

Having a laborer job that generates an “industrial output”, which could be translated into either alloys or consumer goods did feel good, but the specific solution we used didn’t feel quite right.

City Districts & Building slots
Another experiment was to see how it felt if city districts unlock building slots instead of pops. This experiment didn’t have a specific problem or issue it was trying to address but rather it was to investigate how that would feel and work. It was interesting but ultimately it felt less fun than the current implementation. It would have needed more time to see if it could be made to work.
upload_2019-8-15_12-15-12.png

This experiment did include increasing the number of jobs you would get for the building, so a research lab would provide 3 jobs instead of 2.

City District Jobs from Buildings
At the same time, we also tried a version where buildings applied jobs to city districts instead of providing jobs by themselves. One upside would be that you’d need less micromanagement to get the jobs, but the downside is that it would also be quite a large upswing in new jobs whenever you built a city district. In the end, it felt like you had less control and understanding of what a planet was specializing in.

Summary
Although these experiments were interesting, they didn’t end up quite where we wanted to, so they never became more than just experiments. We did learn some interesting things though, which we will keep in mind for the future. The industrial districts are still something I want to keep looking into, but we have to find a better solution.

Dev diaries will now be back on a regular schedule, but we will be looking into changing the format a bit this time around. For now, dev diaries will be coming bi-weekly, which means we will be back again in another 2 weeks with a similar topic.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:
I like the whole "District to produce alloy/cg" thing, though it does make me wonder:

What *should* the divide be in terms of districts and buildings?
Currently it's
Districts:
Planet - Energy, Food, Minerals
Habitat - Energy, Research, Minerals, Trade, Amenities (Depending on where it's built)
Ringworld - Energy, Food
Ecu - Alloys, CG, Research? (A little hazy on this since I haven't seen an Ecu in forever)

Buildings
All - Buff buildings, Anti-Crime, Unity, Alloys, CG, Happiness, Defense, Trade.

(Plus all the things I've forgotten or have made mistakes on)

I'm not going to advocate for conformity because having variations make me happy, but I do agree that there is some streamlining that could be done.

I personally like the idea of making buildings more about unity, trade, buff buildings, and crime (I guess), with alloys, cg, and research moved over to districts. In this stance, buildings would organically play the role of being support that are valuable only upon having districts to buff in the first place.
I.e. Instead of the alloy factory giving 2 jobs, it now would give 1/2/3 jobs (per building level) and would give +1/+2/+3 alloy production rate to each alloy specialist on the planet, and can be stacked to high heaven.

Yes this would make overspecialized planets.
Yes this would also make points of failure for players that they *have* to defend or else have their entire economy go kaput, which I consider to be a good thing.
 
Honestly, I can't see any way to prevent that being cheesed to open up as many building slots as possible early on.

Energy upkeep. Increase building cost (minerals). Increase building time. There's plenty you can do to prevent city district spamming.

(Or unlock city district slots by number of pops. Nah...)
 
Honestly, I can't see any way to prevent that being cheesed to open up as many building slots as possible early on. You'd be able to basically map out an entire planet's worth of production as quickly as you can build cities, which just front loads a lot of the work so that you never have to look back at the planet again. Not idea from a core gameplay loop perspective.

My personal opinion: Being able to set up the planet's districts/buildings once and then never having to look at it again is *exactly* ideal. Everything else becomes a chore if you have to manage 50+ planets.
 
Some way to focus more workers into advanced resources during the early game is something that the game needs. The economy doesn't feel like it really works until you get access to the advanced buildings, as you simply can't get enough metallurgist/researcher/culture worker jobs relative to your base resource makers. You get an excess of base materials you end up either trading away on the market or spending on keeping edicts and food distribution up. Minerals don't have something you can dump them on and you can see the AI really suffer from this since they'll max out their districts and build huge armies just because there's nothing else they can dump minerals on.

Getting an ecumenolopolis really helps with this since it does let you dedicate as many pops as you need into advanced resources, fixing your economy issues. You aren't forced to dedicate around two to three fifths of your population into producing resources you don't need.
 
Honestly STOP working or "experimenting" with anything and focus on figuring out the late mage lag its so bloody obvious that a LOT of people are having this problem and you guys always give a non answer when asked about it. Jesus Christ this game has been out for 3 years and i can count on one hand the amount of games ive actually finished.
 
Wow, sure are a lot of Debbie Downers in this thread!

(And what do we do with Downers...?)

This was a really neat look into your design process and thoughts. I definitely think the "Industrial Output" idea is promising- I'd love to see it make it into the game. Curious to see what the next Dev Diary talks about!
 
My personal opinion: Being able to set up the planet's districts/buildings once and then never having to look at it again is *exactly* ideal. Everything else becomes a chore if you have to manage 50+ planets.
I feel like the forum needs a Super-Agree option for posts like this.

One reason I proposed my economic overhaul is that all of the "basic" [food/energy/minerals/science/culture/trade/consumer goods/alloys/housing] resources would be produced by districts. Buildings would then be used for enhancements and buffs for those. Specific buildings could be gated behind population [or administration building], but basic buildings would be unlocked per normal to allow you to queue up a "default" colony fairly easily as fire-and-forget so you could set up a basic world and not really have to touch it again until it hit 20 or 30 pop.
 
Since pops are one of the biggest, if not the biggest, contributor to late game lag, why not experiment with shifting towards districts that produce specialist jobs while buildings increase the output of said jobs? Buildings could still have upgrades, but the upgraded versions just further increase the output of their specialist job type (i.e. tier 1 lab increases researcher output by 1, tier 2 lab increases output by 2, etc... not hard numbers, just an example). Pop numbers and growth could then be tweaked and the total number of pops on the map could be reduced, thus improving overall performance.

Can I toot my own horn here? *toot* I doubt I need to really explain why.

*toooot* *toooot*

Lol, yeah, when I read the DD my first thoughts were "Are they experimenting with AlphaMod stuff!?" and "Did the devs request AlphaAsh's help like they requested Glavius's help!?"

Honestly, I can't see any way to prevent that being cheesed to open up as many building slots as possible early on.

You still wouldn't have the pops to work those jobs and you would essentially ruin your economy by having no workers due to the wonky job priority system, not to mention the massive mineral investment that you couldn't afford in the early game, although I do see how this could be confusing to newer players who don't realize that you really shouldn't fill up every building slot the instant they unlock.
 
If done poorly you're correct but there MIGHT be a way to have at least some of our cake and eat it too.

*****************************************************************************************

IF there would be UI room I'd like to see tons of districts of various types:
  • Rural -- Generator, Mining, Agriculture
  • Urban -- City, Forge, Industrial, Research, Entertainment, Trade
  • Government(?) -- "Unity", Enforcement, Fortress, Medical

I imagine the above covers the basics. I could see the icons just having "numbers" instead of the current block system we have now.

I would still like some special buildings BUT have them unlocked not necessarily by POPs BUT by NUMBER of districts or some combination:
  • You build a few research districts .... you can then build a Research Center
  • Build several specific rural buildings and you unlock the "+15% / +25%" buildings to enhance those
  • Build some combination of Forge & Industrial then you get access to Ministry of Production
Maybe you could be limited on the number of special building slots?? Perhaps you unlock those building slots depending what type of "Capital" building you have on the planet? This allows for some tech & pop gating if appropriate.

IF the UI issues could be worked out I could see this working.

The district types is an interesting idea. Especially if you consider the roadmap in march said they were thinking of including "institutions/departmemts". These institutions could have effects on all specific districts or even district types. Which in turn could also tie into traditions. That would be cool
 
It sounds like they were experimenting with the system they had originally when they were reworking the economic system. Instead of having POPs unlock building slots it was tied to infrastructure, which you could build with no limit and gain building slots that way. It was abused to hell and back by playtesters so they scrapped it in favour of the current system.

If I'm reading grekulf's post right they were trying something similar to infrastructure, but tying it to City districts instead as they have their own balancing mechanics. So for every City district you build you'd get +1 building slot.

Honestly, I can't see any way to prevent that being cheesed to open up as many building slots as possible early on. You'd be able to basically map out an entire planet's worth of production as quickly as you can build cities, which just front loads a lot of the work so that you never have to look back at the planet again. Not idea from a core gameplay loop perspective.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, doing it all at once with massively skew how the current system assigns jobs. Its not like pre 2.2 where you could move the pop around easily afterwards. If this is optimal for the player then so be it. There's already automation and the possibility of planet templates on the horizon (as discussed in a previous DD), so why is this a hill too far?

You also have upkeep and sprawl penalties building if you're pre-building without actually filling jobs immediately.
 
Secondary Side note: I really, really hope we get the ability back to just move pops from job to job in the same tier. *I liked the tile system just fine thank-you-very-much*
 
Last edited:
I agree that districts feel more wholesome than buildings. The dual system is tricky to explain away.

My input for what its worth:

SUGGESTION 1 - DISTRICTS
- Alloys and CG should be separate districts, not a unified district.
- Also include research, commercial and leisure districts.
- Do away with buildings entirely (sorry about the artwork)

if you want to retain the building artwork, then do it liike this ....
SUGGESTION 2 - RESOURCE BUILDINGS TO REPLACE PLANET PRODUCTION BONUSES
- 3 mining districts spawns a mineral refinery on the planet. The building can be displayed, to reflect the bonus it provides, but is not worked by a pop.
- 5 mining districts upgrades the refinery to a mineral purifier.
- Do the same for research, energy, agriculture, etc, where the more districts of that type you build, the more 'modifier buildings' are gained or upgraded automatically.
- This would work like an inherent planet bonus, and encourage specialisation.
- It would cover research institutes, energy grids, food replicators, holotheatres, galactic stock exchange, etc. which would all now be planetary bonuses that you unlock by focussing on those districts.
- The scale of the bonuses can be adjusted to reflect that planet focus is removed.


SUGGESTION 3 - CITY DISTRICTS and UTILITY BUILDINGS
- This still leaves utility buildings like slave processing plant, noble houses, precincts, robot assemblers, temples, network nodes, housing, fortrresses, gene clinics, and some planetary uniques.
- So, link these functions to city districts.
- Each city district unlocks a utility slot, where the player decides which utility building he needs to build in that city slot.
 
Last edited:
Just an idle thought:

Districts are for workers

Buildings are for specialists

This is mostly true but neither consistent nor obvious.

I'd suggest the planetary UI be adjusted to mirror the strata pyramid in some way.

All worker districts and buildings at the bottom.

All specialist buildings and districts in the middle.

Few ruler buildings at the top.
 
City District Jobs from Buildings
At the same time, we also tried a version where buildings applied jobs to city districts instead of providing jobs by themselves. One upside would be that you’d need less micromanagement to get the jobs, but the downside is that it would also be quite a large upswing in new jobs whenever you built a city district. In the end, it felt like you had less control and understanding of what a planet was specializing in.

I feel like this is more the sort of thing which should be added by unique buildings (that is, one per planet and maybe limited to one of any such building per plant) or decisions to represent some level of specialization.

Actually, having "heavy" specializations unlocking buildings or districts might be cool too ("heavy" in the sense that it would probably need to be distinct from the current planetary specialisations). Maybe making a planet into a forge world would swap out the agriculture districts for industrial districts, or dedicating it a research world might replace the mining districts with research ones etc.
 
My personal opinion: Being able to set up the planet's districts/buildings once and then never having to look at it again is *exactly* ideal. Everything else becomes a chore if you have to manage 50+ planets.

Yes, after the first few years there are barely any interesting decisions involved. My favourite would be a "zoning code"-like approach that allows planets to self-develop, with the occasional special government building project.
 
Here's one idea on the buildings vs. Districts balance/debate. How about max buildings and districts are limited by planet size (not including the buffs that give you additional distict slots or even building slots in this new system). So a size 20 planet would have a max of 20 building slots and 20 district slots generally speaking. You can build all the basic resources including unity, research, trade value through districts broken up into three district types as mentioned earlier. The 20 building slots would be available for immediate use much like the district slots (assuming theres no blockers, which could also block building slots in this new system cause why not). However most buildings are available only after a certain threshold of districts are reached. So all the % increase buildings would require like 3 of the associated districts fully operational. For example to build the food processing plant you'll need 3 farming districts. Moreover this could allow for some limited stacking and ultra valuable planets. For instance if the planet allows for 18 farming districts due to planetary features you'd be able to build a food processing facility every three farming districts. This means you'd be able to stack 6 fully upgraded food processing facilities into the 20 free building slots on this world, making it not only the bread basket of your empire but probably neighbouring empires and still have 2 district slots and 14 building slots to play with (again not including little modifer/tradition/ap bonuses on this).
 
Here's one idea on the buildings vs. Districts balance/debate. How about max buildings and districts are limited by planet size (not including the buffs that give you additional distict slots or even building slots in this new system). So a size 20 planet would have a max of 20 building slots and 20 district slots generally speaking. You can build all the basic resources including unity, research, trade value through districts broken up into three district types as mentioned earlier. The 20 building slots would be available for immediate use much like the district slots (assuming theres no blockers, which could also block building slots in this new system cause why not). However most buildings are available only after a certain threshold of districts are reached. So all the % increase buildings would require like 3 of the associated districts fully operational. For example to build the food processing plant you'll need 3 farming districts. Moreover this could allow for some limited stacking and ultra valuable planets. For instance if the planet allows for 18 farming districts due to planetary features you'd be able to build a food processing facility every three farming districts. This means you'd be able to stack 6 fully upgraded food processing facilities into the 20 free building slots on this world, making it not only the bread basket of your empire but probably neighbouring empires and still have 2 district slots and 14 building slots to play with (again not including little modifer/tradition/ap bonuses on this).
That's... actually kind of genius.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.