Stellaris Dev Diary #15 - Fallen Empires

Hello and happy new year! I’ll be your substitute Doomdark for today and in this week’s dev diary we’ll take a closer look at Fallen Empires.

The galaxy is vast, old and unknown. New species constantly flare into existence and some are even able to take their first cautious steps towards other stars. Of those that do some are arrogant enough to assume that they are the first and only chosen. They fail to realize that others may have taken those same steps before them, others who have found amazing wonders and unraveled their secrets, others who reached the furthest edges of knowledge only to crumble away. Those others are called Fallen Empires.

These are once-glorious empires that for unknown reasons have stagnated and often fallen to infighting or crippling apathy. That which once covered hundreds of systems have shrunk to a fraction, barely held on to by superior technology and what little remains of a once glorious fleet. Fallen Empires are isolationist and will look at newer species with disinterest or outright contempt. Diplomatic attempts are futile and they will most likely attack any unknown ships entering one of their remaining systems.

stellaris_dev_diary_14_01_20160104_diplomatic_contact.jpg

The response of Fallen Empires vary greatly when approached. It is rarely friendly though.

Design Reasoning

We’ve added Fallen Empires to the game for a couple of reasons. They have the potential to enable some really cool stories and there is a bunch of different directions we can take to ensure players get a different experience from game to game. Players should never feel confident in how a Fallen Empire may react to different events in the galaxy. If left alone they might resurge as a reaction to a galaxy-wide threat or become outraged when their most holy planets are colonized by lesser races.

Gameplay-wise the Fallen Empires can act as a potential source of advanced technology for players willing to invest the military forces required to defeat one of their fleets in battle. In Stellaris, all ships destroyed in combat will leave debris behind and through reverse engineering a player may discover the technologies required to build the weapons and components equipped by those ships. Players can also invade planets belonging to Fallen Empires, allowing them to utilize whatever advanced buildings placed there. This of course means dealing with a new species within the Empire.
While the rewards may be tempting, players may want to consider the risks before attacking a Fallen Empire. Who knows what horrors they have unearthed during the ages, what forbidden secrets their planets hold within, what captives might be unleashed should their wardens be struck down.

stellaris_dev_diary_14_02_20160104_fallen_empire.jpg

Fallen Empires will use a separate series of models for their ships and stations.

Next week the good Goosecreature will be back with a dev diary on the events and mishaps that may befall colonies and their inhabitants. Until then!
 
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SolarGuy

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Imagine the Borg going after the Daleks :eek:
"We are Bor...lek. Exter...ssilated! Your culture... exterminated... service us... obey or... exterminated..." - That would be even more horrifying than the original Borg message. Everyone is afraid of being exterminated, but the Borg actually just want to... exterminate!

And to put in a question that will stop this comment from being spam XD Can fallen empires also start in the same system as a pre-FTL species, or a starting empire, or is there a hidden mechanic to prevent that from happening?
 

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Assimilated Cylons? Not good... Assimilated Ori? Even worse! Assimilated Vorlons? *shudder*
More like the Borg would be insanely stupid enough to try and assimilate the Vorlons only for them to be so thoroughly wrecked that they'd be wiped out over it. The Borg couldn't even handle the aliens from fluidic space(couldn't assimilate them either apparantly) so they'd have no chance against -Vorlons- of all things. :p

Considering the Borg exist in a cybernetic hivemind, I wonder if Reaper indoctrination would even influence them.
That'd just spread it faster I'd guess. The reapers certainly seem to have no problem with pumping their minions full of cybernetics if Saren is anything to go by. So I imagine they're adept at dealing with that sort of technology. Depends on how fast the hivemind can disconnect tainted units I'd guess.
 
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Borg assimilated Vorlons? On one hand, I'd say that would probably be impossible, since Vorlons appear to be largely energy/psionic beings. On the other hand, Kosh was poisoned, and the old shootyshooty seems to work. Their ships might be easier to assimilate than the Vorlons themselves, depending on how good the ship's immune system is. That was the big problem with trying to assimilate Species 8472 after all; completely different biology with super aggressive immune system that makes venoms look like pansies.

Reaper indoctrination vs Borg? I'm pretty certain the Borg would win out. The Borg excel at analyzing something, and indoctrination works rather slowly giving them plenty of time to do exactly that. Assimilation on the other hand is considerably faster, and Reapers simply don't have the defenses to deal with Borg nanoprobes, or Borg cubes for that matter. It's entirely likely that the Borg are simply immune. Presumably, the hive mind of the Rachni helps them resist indoctrination to the point of being immune, in which case that would probably aid the Borg just as well. The changes made to the brain and limbic system by the Borg implants would likely interfere with the indoctrination as well. Since the cybernetics used by the Reapers are different to those used by the Borg, it's unlikely that the Reapers could use the Borg's own implants against them, at least not on a meaningful timescale. The Reapers simply cannot adapt anywhere near as fast as the Borg can.
 
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Caspoi

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Considering the Borg exist in a cybernetic hivemind, I wonder if Reaper indoctrination would even influence them.

Borg assimilated Vorlons? On one hand, I'd say that would probably be impossible, since Vorlons appear to be largely energy/psionic beings. On the other hand, Kosh was poisoned, and the old shootyshooty seems to work. Their ships might be easier to assimilate than the Vorlons themselves, depending on how good the ship's immune system is. That was the big problem with trying to assimilate Species 8472 after all; completely different biology with super aggressive immune system that makes venoms look like pansies.

Reaper indoctrination vs Borg? I'm pretty certain the Borg would win out. The Borg excel at analyzing something, and indoctrination works rather slowly giving them plenty of time to do exactly that. Assimilation on the other hand is considerably faster, and Reapers simply don't have the defenses to deal with Borg nanoprobes, or Borg cubes for that matter. It's entirely likely that the Borg are simply immune. Presumably, the hive mind of the Rachni helps them resist indoctrination to the point of being immune, in which case that would probably aid the Borg just as well. The changes made to the brain and limbic system by the Borg implants would likely interfere with the indoctrination as well. Since the cybernetics used by the Reapers are different to those used by the Borg, it's unlikely that the Reapers could use the Borg's own implants against them, at least not on a meaningful timescale. The Reapers simply cannot adapt anywhere near as fast as the Borg can.

Well the reapers do manage to indoctronate the geth, who work very much the same way in that they have a synthetic hivemind. Also while indoctronation is slow it is also subtle, I am unsure (I have not studied the Borg very much) whether the Borg would manage to pick it up until it is too late.
 
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Well the reapers do manage to indoctronate the geth, who work very much the same way in that they have a synthetic hivemind. Also while indoctronation is slow it is also subtle, I am unsure (I have not studied the Borg very much) whether the Borg would manage to pick it up until it is too late.
The Geth weren't indoctrinated, the Geth Heretics accepted Sovereign's offer of technology in exchange for their help in retaking the Citadel in the first game, had a virus to force all Geth to accept the Heretic's conclusion in the second, and in the third the Geth allowed Reaper code to augment their combat abilities. In all three cases, the Reapers basically required permission from the Geth to have any effect over them.

All the suspected mechanics behind Indoctrination the Borg would have no problems detecting. Electromagnetic fields, infra and ultrasounds are all par for the course for the Borg, and all of them can be shielded against. Even if for some reason the Borg aren't able to detect it, if they're in Indoctrination range then the Reaper and/or their devices are basically in assimilation range. If it comes down to a race, the Borg will have assimilated the device/ship and be aware of Indoctrination long before the effects start to show.
 
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Caspoi

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The Geth weren't indoctrinated, the Geth Heretics accepted Sovereign's offer of technology in exchange for their help in retaking the Citadel in the first game, had a virus to force all Geth to accept the Heretic's conclusion in the second, and in the third the Geth allowed Reaper code to augment their combat abilities. In all three cases, the Reapers basically required permission from the Geth to have any effect over them.

All the suspected mechanics behind Indoctrination the Borg would have no problems detecting. Electromagnetic fields, infra and ultrasounds are all par for the course for the Borg, and all of them can be shielded against. Even if for some reason the Borg aren't able to detect it, if they're in Indoctrination range then the Reaper and/or their devices are basically in assimilation range. If it comes down to a race, the Borg will have assimilated the device/ship and be aware of Indoctrination long before the effects start to show.

Well, those virus' and such were described as basically indoctrination on AIs. As for Borg assimilation, as I said I don't know much about how it wokrs on amchienes (as far as I was aware they could only "indoctronate" organics, could you please explain what they do) but I suspect that most of these things would fall short on them, they are billions of years old being who have made it their job of among other thing collect all the technology of previous beings.
 

misterbean

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Well, those virus' and such were described as basically indoctrination on AIs. As for Borg assimilation, as I said I don't know much about how it wokrs on amchienes (as far as I was aware they could only "indoctronate" organics, could you please explain what they do) but I suspect that most of these things would fall short on them, they are billions of years old being who have made it their job of among other thing collect all the technology of previous beings.

The Borg inject microscopic robots called nanites into their target. If it is an organic being, it becomes a fully "brainwashed" drone and part of the collective. All of its knowledge will be part of the Borg collective. If it has any superior abilities (for instance if it can breathe in space), that ability becomes part of the collective.
If it is a machine, that machine is turned into its equivalent Borg machine. A computer will still be a computer, but it will be a Borg computer and so on.
 

SolarGuy

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The Borg inject microscopic robots called nanites into their target. If it is an organic being, it becomes a fully "brainwashed" drone and part of the collective. All of its knowledge will be part of the Borg collective. If it has any superior abilities (for instance if it can breathe in space), that ability becomes part of the collective.
If it is a machine, that machine is turned into its equivalent Borg machine. A computer will still be a computer, but it will be a Borg computer and so on.
The machine will actually be improved when necessary, and all data about it will be saved in the collective so it can be rebuild (unless it's less effective than current technology). They will not turn everything into pure Borg equivalents, the machines will just be "hybrids".
 

Cephei80

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it gonna be cool if they add ashtar galactic command to the game as a fallen empire or as an existed empire .

NOTE : the theory of many UFOlogien said that ashtar galactic command is some sort of multiraces coalition who watch us infiltrate us and contact us many time .
all famous knowing alien like reptiliens or grays belong to this coalition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtar_(extraterrestrial_being)

i really hope want this nation in the game not far from us .as first threat humans must confront .
or if immposible they can give us the possiblity to customize factions of the galaxie before starting the game
 
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it gonna be cool if they add ashtar galactic command to the game as a fallen empire or as an existed empire .

NOTE : the theory of many UFOlogien said that ashtar galactic command is some sort of multiraces coalition who watch us infiltrate us and contact us many time .
all famous knowing alien like reptiliens or grays belong to this coalition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtar_(extraterrestrial_being)

i really hope want this nation in the game not far from us .as first threat humans must confront .
or if immposible they can give us the possiblity to customize factions of the galaxie before starting the game

Not really, I feel like I could do without them, it is one thing the lower the randomness of humanity due to hard science, Another because of some completely irrelevant conspiracy theory that I don't care about.
 
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Well, those virus' and such were described as basically indoctrination on AIs. As for Borg assimilation, as I said I don't know much about how it wokrs on amchienes (as far as I was aware they could only "indoctronate" organics, could you please explain what they do) but I suspect that most of these things would fall short on them, they are billions of years old being who have made it their job of among other thing collect all the technology of previous beings.

Bear in mind, part of the reason the Reapers are so devastating in a fight with organics is that all species' technology is based on information the Reapers let out. The main way of traveling the galaxy in the Mass Effect universe is a series of devices the Reapers built and indirectly control. They know everything about how the tech of organic species works. But, this wouldn't apply to any species not from the Mass Effect universe, so trying to judge whether they could effectively combat each other is a bit of a fool's errand.


it gonna be cool if they add ashtar galactic command to the game as a fallen empire or as an existed empire .
NOTE : the theory of many UFOlogien said that ashtar galactic command is some sort of multiraces coalition who watch us infiltrate us and contact us many time .
all famous knowing alien like reptiliens or grays belong to this coalition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtar_(extraterrestrial_being)

i really hope want this nation in the game not far from us .as first threat humans must confront .
or if immposible they can give us the possiblity to customize factions of the galaxie before starting the game

That could be fun as a random element that appears in some games.
 
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Bear in mind, part of the reason the Reapers are so devastating in a fight with organics is that all species' technology is based on information the Reapers let out. The main way of traveling the galaxy in the Mass Effect universe is a series of devices the Reapers built and indirectly control. They know everything about how the tech of organic species works. But, this wouldn't apply to any species not from the Mass Effect universe, so trying to judge whether they could effectively combat each other is a bit of a fool's errand.




That could be fun as a random element that appears in some games.

I certainly agree on that point, one problem when it comes to comparing groups from different settings is that they never really were comparable with each other, that and fanboyism might cloud people's judgement.
 
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Bear in mind, part of the reason the Reapers are so devastating in a fight with organics is that all species' technology is based on information the Reapers let out. The main way of traveling the galaxy in the Mass Effect universe is a series of devices the Reapers built and indirectly control.

A good point. Although there should have been some species who decided to go "Galt" and do their own individual thing, like Alternative Healing, which would not be based upon ancient technology and limits.

It would have made for a more interesting setup if they had some kind of civil war over that as well.

Logistics > Strategy > Tactics
Deception is at the heart of warfare. Deceive the enemy and they will have no clue what hits them.

I wonder what will be concrete triggers for the resurgence of the Fallen Empires and will they be dynamic dependent on players actions or just RNGs?

I heard Paradox mention something about Fallen Empires going into holy wars if you occupy some real estate they value very highly. So I suppose each FE has a backstory or list of priorities, which if you mess around with too much, they might go Crusade/Jihad on you, Ck2 style. Then presumably they will resurge, Vorlon/Shadow style.

And to put in a question that will stop this comment from being spam XD Can fallen empires also start in the same system as a pre-FTL species, or a starting empire, or is there a hidden mechanic to prevent that from happening?

Not near a player empire. Judging by where the FE spawned in the dev diaries, it'll be symmetrical. For 2 players, they would occupy the West and East facing, and any FE would spawn in the north or south. For 4 players... FE in the middle of the galaxy probably.

16-32 players? Probably middle again. This is based on the leads saying they want to make Stellaris symmetrical in start. If an FE is closer to one player empire but not another, that's not very symmetrical.
 
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I certainly agree on that point, one problem when it comes to comparing groups from different settings is that they never really were comparable with each other, that and fanboyism might cloud people's judgement.
Star Wars has always been my favourite for the comparison fanboyism. In the past when they listed output numbers for things like shields, reactors and weapons, they simply picked any old number that sounded big without any concern for what the number or units actually meant (much less any concern for what gets seen on screen). The point defense weapons on a Star Destroyer far exceeded the theoretical yield of the Tsar Bomb. But the shields on the Star Destroyer were low enough that actually hitting a target in close proximity would overwhelm the Star Destroyer's own shields. And ever wonder why you rarely see a Star Destroyer firing in the movies? It might have been because their reactors weren't able to power the entire ship at once.

Star Wars doesn't list outputs any more. I can't imagine why :p
 
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Star Wars has always been my favourite for the comparison fanboyism. In the past when they listed output numbers for things like shields, reactors and weapons, they simply picked any old number that sounded big without any concern for what the number or units actually meant (much less any concern for what gets seen on screen). The point defense weapons on a Star Destroyer far exceeded the theoretical yield of the Tsar Bomb. But the shields on the Star Destroyer were low enough that actually hitting a target in close proximity would overwhelm the Star Destroyer's own shields. And ever wonder why you rarely see a Star Destroyer firing in the movies? It might have been because their reactors weren't able to power the entire ship at once.

Star Wars doesn't list outputs any more. I can't imagine why :p

X wing and Tie Fighter were pretty good games, simulating the actual fights and technical stats.

Well, they had to make it work, they just couldn't come up with random numbers.
 

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X wing and Tie Fighter were pretty good games, simulating the actual fights and technical stats.

Well, they had to make it work, they just couldn't come up with random numbers.
Tie Fighter is one of my favourite games. Someday I'll get around to buying them all on GoG so I can actually play the X-wing games too.

They didn't really simulate the technical stats though. Since the AI on each of the turrets for ships had nearly the same load as a fighter, the number of them were limited, particularly on the larger ships. Victory I-class Star Destroyers fell far short of the 30-50 turrets that they're supposed to have, or the 20-80 missile launchers. The ability of a single Tie Fighter to destroy a Victory class or even an Imperial I class in a few minutes worth of shooting is pretty questionable too.

The units used in Tie Fighter and the X-Wings was nice and vague; SBD units for shields, RU for hull, and no mention of reactors or weapon outputs. They're completely meaningless, but perfect for the player to view the ships and have a good idea of the comparative strength of the various ships and stations. The numbers change between the games as well, so they really did use whatever random numbers they felt fit the game play better.