Stellaris Dev Diary #147 - An update on Sectors & Designations

[Zoolimar]

What about empires without clerks/administrators?

All empires have some kind of analogue to them. Adding different penalties/bonuses and unique features for different management variants could allow to enrich the system and differentiate empires further.

 

[methegrate]

For me it depends on the implementation. If its 50 different resources to juggle along with trade routes, shipping lanes, taxation, etc then no that wouldn't be fun within the scope of Stellaris. Might be awesome for some other game though. Transport Tycoon Deluxe is after all a fantastic game!

But I think moving more of the stockpiles to sectors, assuming sectors work, and having them ship for example alloys from industrial worlds to sectors with a lot of shipyards could work. It would be a good opportunity for trade based warfare and diplomacy. And open up new playstyles.

Agreed, although it would also need a developer raiding/asymmetric war system to complement it.

Trade and supply based warfare would be fantastic, but at the moment a little superfluous. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love it if Stellaris’ map had the kind of openness and mobility that let you plan a war around attacking supply depots, cutting off lines and hitting crucial infrastructure. But apparently that’s not nearly as strategic as building defenses and throwing one giant doomstack at an obvious chokepoint. If they had stuck with warp/wormhole, this would be possible. With hyperlanes? Idk... I’m pretty sure that by the time you can hit a supply route, the war is already won.

So I’d think this would need raiding ship. Some way that you can fight behind the (imho poorly thought through) trench warfare and choke points that war is currently built around. They would need to be tough enough to be worth it, but not so powerful that they dominate the field. Could be good if that balance was hit though.

 

[methegrate]

Re trade routes for resources, It depends on the intent.

If the intent is to model the economic challenges of supporting a huge fleet operating in enemy territory then this can be done more elegantly with tweaks to the upkeep model, *maybe* an introduction of a supply mechanism which is tied to your starbase infrastructure.

This would allow for strategies like cutting off supply, etc.

As it is, there is virtually no penalty on operating your deathball indefinitely in enemy territory.

Agreed. I think this is the heart of why logistics are necessary. A key part of the doomstack problem has always been that your super fleet has infinite range and infinite fuel/ammo. It can keep going forever without having to slow down or pull back. Heck, since you can use captured stations to heal, it even has infinite health.

 

[Shirasik]

All empires have some kind of analogue to them. Adding different penalties/bonuses and unique features for different management variants could allow to enrich the system and differentiate empires further.

Just to make a comparision.
How many clerks+administrators or their analogues could hold a planet of:
- normal empire;
- megacorp empire;
- gestalt empire?

If a planet is dedicated as a sector capital, i.e. will focus to build as many clerk/administrator jobs as possible.

 

[universal_kalle]

About logistics. One simple thing I would like to see is fuel range. Using the hyperlane system that could look something like this.
Base 4 jump range where the ships are fully operational. Beyond that you got 2 additional jumps of "pushing it" with negative effects (could be speed, firepower, disengagement chance, etc). Basically you start turning systems off, limiting life support maybe put some of the crew in stasis and so on, you're running on a limited capacity and preserving fuel in order to be able to reach a fuel station.
You extend your range thru Starbases and a new fuel station building. You can also trade for fuel rights. You can capture enemy fuel stations and use their supply during war.
Research, ship utility slots, Starbase upgrades and stuff can extend the range.
Science ships either have infinite range or highly extended, they are after built for deep space exploration and being away for decades.

This is basically what my favourite 4x game ever used. Master of Orion 2 back in 1996.

Don't take what I've written here as an absolute! It's just a simple outline and starting place for further iteration and balancing.

More advanced stuff:
You could add in logistics of having fuel lines running to the stations. Or let them have infinite fuel once built. Or abstract the fuel lines by letting them fill up with fuel over time after being used, speed depending on proximity to other stations, enemy territory, piracy, and so forth.


This is all off the top of my head. Might be terrible combined with the other mechanics of the game.. But it's a simple enough concept that it shouldn't overload the game in unnecessary complexity.

 

[MartinSWE]

The changes to planet designations will be a huge improvement for me and the changes to sectors sounds great also. RP:ing as the WH40K Imperium of Man will be much more fun with these changes in place.

 

[Samquamch]

FINALLY a sector rework.

 

[Methone]

FINALLY a sector rework.

What do you mean finally?! There was another dev diary, like 141 or something, where they said they're thinking of how to rework it. Fast forward, here's what they came up with.

 

[Hallon]

@grekulf How will housing be automated if the sectors alone can't handle the population?

 

[Hallon]

Yes but the pops don’t actually move because there is no automatic resettling in the game anymore.

That explains quite a bit.

 

[Zoolimar]

Just to make a comparision.
How many clerks+administrators or their analogues could hold a planet of:
- normal empire;
- megacorp empire;
- gestalt empire?

If a planet is dedicated as a sector capital, i.e. will focus to build as many clerk/administrator jobs as possible.

Normal empires and megacorps should be able to employ most of their population in this manner. Gestalts have more problems - for them it seems to be around 5-15 while non gestalts will naturally have around ~30 similar jobs on a developed planet even without additional buildings.

 

[Shadowstrike]

I kind of just want this updated sector system now. It would improve the experience of playing through the midgame immensely not to have to micromanage every last planet, and not going crazy with all the fragmented, tiny sectors. That alone is keeping me from playing Stellaris at the moment.

 

[Daemon69]

The thing about sectors is... still doesn't seem like they're really adding much. Sectors at one point handled automatic development, which was kind of necessary, but also not terribly interesting in terms of gameplay. They existed to optionally remove boring decisions, not create interesting ones. And while reducing the amount of busy-work is good, I'd rather they actually add some interesting decision-making.

While an obvious option, with planetary specialization being such a big thing now, I don't see specialized sectors being a good idea at all: planets don't come clustered in a way that would generally make it worth having an "energy sector".

Sectors feel like they should be the basis for the flow of trade rather than stations. A sector is a distinct economic sub-unit, similar to a province/state/prefecture in real life countries. The sector capital acts much like a trade station does now, collecting all value all within it's zone, and trade routes would be formed from and between them. Have piracy be dependent on the crime and stability levels on the worlds in a given sector, and leaving them unchecked increases crime and reduces stability further increasing piracy.

(As a bit of a tangent, it would even make sense to have a piracy-equivalent for hiveminds with this sort of model: rather than 'stability' per se, it's how firmly connected the locals are to the hivemind's control. Not enough connection and some of them basically go rogue and start doing their own thing.)

 

[Methone]

While an obvious option, with planetary specialization being such a big thing now, I don't see specialized sectors being a good idea at all: planets don't come clustered in a way that would generally make it worth having an "energy sector".

Perhaps, but what about 'rural sector'?

(As a bit of a tangent, it would even make sense to have a piracy-equivalent for hiveminds with this sort of model: rather than 'stability' per se, it's how firmly connected the locals are to the hivemind's control. Not enough connection and some of them basically go rogue and start doing their own thing.)

That's... that is precisely what Deviancy is.

 

[Thinking and Pretty]

The thing about sectors is... still doesn't seem like they're really adding much. Sectors at one point handled automatic development, which was kind of necessary, but also not terribly interesting in terms of gameplay. They existed to optionally remove boring decisions, not create interesting ones. And while reducing the amount of busy-work is good, I'd rather they actually add some interesting decision-making.

While an obvious option, with planetary specialization being such a big thing now, I don't see specialized sectors being a good idea at all: planets don't come clustered in a way that would generally make it worth having an "energy sector".

Sectors feel like they should be the basis for the flow of trade rather than stations. A sector is a distinct economic sub-unit, similar to a province/state/prefecture in real life countries. The sector capital acts much like a trade station does now, collecting all value all within it's zone, and trade routes would be formed from and between them. Have piracy be dependent on the crime and stability levels on the worlds in a given sector, and leaving them unchecked increases crime and reduces stability further increasing piracy.

(As a bit of a tangent, it would even make sense to have a piracy-equivalent for hiveminds with this sort of model: rather than 'stability' per se, it's how firmly connected the locals are to the hivemind's control. Not enough connection and some of them basically go rogue and start doing their own thing.)

Sectors are perfect for people like who enjoy swapping between all playstyles, including ultra-wide. When playing wide currently I tend to try and keep my planets under 80--heck, even that is high. But when sectors actually helped with automation--back in 1.9--I could easily amass 150+ planets without worries. The more planets, the better. It's both an RP thing and just an urge to spread. It's a fun playstyle, and I haven't felt that way since 1.9.

Sectors should exist to allow this kind of gameplay to be a thing, and so I definitely approve if they are bringing sectors back to their roots. It would make wide as fun as it used to be.

 

[methegrate]

Sectors are perfect for people like who enjoy swapping between all playstyles, including ultra-wide. When playing wide currently I tend to try and keep my planets under 80--heck, even that is high. But when sectors actually helped with automation--back in 1.9--I could easily amass 150+ planets without worries. The more planets, the better. It's both an RP thing and just an urge to spread. It's a fun playstyle, and I haven't felt that way since 1.9.

Sectors should exist to allow this kind of gameplay to be a thing, and so I definitely approve if they are bringing sectors back to their roots. It would make wide as fun as it used to be.

Maybe I’ve misread, but I don’t think that’s what sectors will do. After the update, each planet will handle automation on an individual level. Given how specialized planets are post-2.2, that makes sense to me.

So for the big, sprawling empire, it’s that per-planet AI that will make things work.

I agree with the question. With automation seemingly taken away from sectors once and for all, what’s the point of them? What do they add aside from a map feature?

Personally, I always liked the 1.0 vision of semi-autonomous regions that would grow in character and identity over time. While it was never executed right, and the idea of “politics” never evolved past the occasional rebellion, I thought the core concept was really good.

 

[Mohreb]

Looks like a promising direction.
Hope that
"

• Allow players to have control over the build orders for the different designations

"
Will make it in to the game as soon as possible.
Also @grekulf i do not get it way thease changes are not in for ai. How do they manage planet's without automation?

 

[Phoenix32]

This also isn't how sectors work since 2.2. If you give a sector 200 energy and 100 minerals it just has "300 resources", which it uses to build things.

Isn't that abusable? Say you have a crapton of energy, no minerals and no crystals, can sectors just ignore the crystals and minerals and build any building requiring those with just energy?

 

[MichaelJanuary]

Isn't that abusable? Say you have a crapton of energy, no minerals and no crystals, can sectors just ignore the crystals and minerals and build any building requiring those with just energy?

I don't know what the underlying calculations are ... but I generally just give my sectors a huge load of energy and leave them alone.

Sector automation works fine if you have a decent base economy. I usually manage 1 or 2 sectors myself and automate the rest. All you do then is occassionally sweep through a few planets and add whatever buildings you deem necessary, like fortresses, slave processing, noble estates.

 

[Hyomoto]

It's kind of funny to see Stellaris drift back towards the original design of automated management to avoid tedious micromanagement. But, I hate to say it this way, it will probably make the end game feel worse.

Let me clarify, the end game is not presently awesome and tedious planet development is not a solution. While the micromanagement isn't fun or awesome, it is basically "the thing to do" as you finish whatever drawn out agenda is left. Thus, while I welcome a reduction of tedium in casual play, I also think that will make the end game even more stale.

The artifacts are cool, but they sound like another early-to-mid game task, and this reduction in endgame tedium will remove what little content the late game has to offer. It really needs to be looked at in coming patches, pointless conquering is about the only thing to do in the late game besides micromanage planets.