Stellaris Dev Diary #132 - Ecumenopolis and Megastructures

[John Rusher]

I wasn't referring to that, lol my bad. But it still doesn't apply because it still reported to the throne. Although it was also privately held, so I don't see how that is an argument against me?

It was also dissolved after being nationalized.

Well there were the Templars which had their own state, and other Orders like "The Knights" and "Teutonic Order". Also there were Mercenary companies which had their own countries at some point. And there was Brotherhood of the Coast... Yeah there were organizations like that in history.

The Knights are observer in the UN

 

[Zarpaulus]

Because I shouldn't have to hold your hand for you to know the basic definitions between them. But since you want it:

A corporations is a company designed to limit the liability of the owners. It is one of several types of businesses.

The main business types are Sole Proprietorship: The sole proprietorship is the simplest business form under which one can operate a business. The sole proprietorship is not a legal entity. It simply refers to a person who owns the business and is personally responsible for its debts.
Partnership: like the Sole Proprietorship only owned by more than one person. Merchants would be one of these two.

A corporation, on the other hand is as follows:

A corporation is a legal entity that is separate and distinct from its owners. Corporations enjoy most of the rights and responsibilities that an individual possesses: enter contracts, loan and borrow money, sue and be sued, hire employees, own assets and pay taxes.


If I own a partnership or a sole proprietorship, I own all the debts, assets, etc. I can choose who to hire, who to fire, etc.
If I own a corporation I do NOT own the debt, I do not own the assets, and I canny hire and fire whoever I want.

In a corporation, the corporation is its own entity, separate from me. If it owes 5billion in debt, I am safe. If a merchant family owes 5billion in debt, they are screwed.

Neither of those are corporations in this context, though. We are talking legal corporations.

Is a government not a distinct legal entity from its citizens? Does it not own property that doesn't belong to any of its taxpayers? Can you not appeal to a government without calling for a vote from all constituents? Don't governments collect income, hire employees, and take out loans?

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

Habitability IS about air and water. And food, and a good temperature/pressure. Just because there is no wild fox in a habitat- it doesn't spoil the habitability. There is nothing "magical" in making water, air, and food better than a forest, especially if the civilisation can create habitable starships, ringworlds, psyonic shields and cyborgs. There is nothing special in tailoring the surrounding conditions to a biological organism. We already have autonomous submarines, hydroponic yards, bunker-vaults, etc. If we can make habitable habitats- we can create artificial habitability. And if we can create it- we can create an advanced, 100% habitability.

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not arguing in favour of natural environments in general, claiming them having superrior habitability to artificial ones. I'm talking about the distinction between environments which are optimized for your habitability and those, which are optimized for something else.
For instance, our planet is somewhat optimized for our life. Well, it's the other way around actually: it's us, who were optimized for the reproduction in this conditions by the optimization process - natural selection - anyway the point stands. Why is our planet habitable for us? Because we were developped the way to be living on it.
And now look at the Mars. Why isn't it habitable for us? Because there is no reason for it to be. There was no optimization process which either made Mars suitable for us nor us for Mars. Yet. Our sentience is actually a better optimization process than a natural selection in terms of capacity. We can indeed make Mars optimized for our habitability. Terraform it and so on. But now lets get back to Earth.
Look at Hong Kong. How comes that on a planet, where people are optimized to live, there is a city built by people, which is badly optimized for their habitability? How comes it easier to breath in the space station rather than in Hong Kong? Because the habitability isn't the optimization goal of building cities. Because the previously optimized enviromental conditions were sacrificed in favour of something else.
There are still lots of things to mention: the way to quantify habitability - the destinction between eating only larvae and having the ability to choose between multiple dishes and so on. But the most important point is the way that optimization processes works in general. If there is something to sacrifice for the sake of X - it will be sacrificed. So it seems improbable for ecumenopolises, which are optimized for dencity rather than than comfort of a single individual, to have perfect habitability

 

[Arkangilos]

Is a government not a distinct legal entity from its citizens? Does it not own property that doesn't belong to any of its taxpayers? Can you not appeal to a government without calling for a vote from all constituents? Don't governments collect income, hire employees, and take out loans?

Except governments don't exist to make profit or benefit themselves, they exist to benefit the nation. Even non-profits are different.

Just because they have similarities does not mean they are the same.

 

[Arkangilos]

The government isn't a corporation. That's like saying everything that is 12 inches tall, has four legs, two ears, a tail, and hair is a cat.

There are similarities, but they aren't the same.

 

[Zarpaulus]

Except governments don't exist to make profit or benefit themselves, they exist to benefit the nation. Even non-profits are different.

Just because they have similarities does not mean they are the same.

Non-profit corporations exist to benefit people in a certain spread, in the case of governments that's their citizens.

 

[Arkangilos]

The government isn't legally a person, corporations are, by law, legally people.

 

[John Rusher]

The government isn't legally a person, corporations are, by law, legally people.

Depends on goverment. Different countries have different laws.

 

[Casko]

Now. maybe its just me, but Mega Art Installation and Strategic Coordination Centers both look tad.... MEH.

I really do not like the design Mega Art installation. the flare/pillar of light at the center just rubs me the wrong way considering the thing is supposed to be a gigantic art piece /museum.

 

[Zarpaulus]

The government isn't legally a person, corporations are, by law, legally people.

In which way are governments not legally people?

The highest level doesn't pay taxes? Neither do these Megacorps unless they're subsidiaries or in a Federation

 

[John Rusher]

Now. maybe its just me, but Mega Art Installation and Strategic Coordination Centers both look tad.... MEH.

I really do not like the design Mega Art installation. the flare/pillar of light at the center just rubs me the wrong way considering the thing is supposed to be a gigantic art piece /museum.

Maybe it's where all the trash art goes.

 

[Arkangilos]

How do you know they don't pay taxes?

It says they supplanted governments, not that governments done exist.
This goes back to my Aliens EU statement. The corporations took on all the roles of the governments, but they still existed. They just have no real authority or power.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with you guys. You can believe what you want.

 

[John Rusher]

Goverments CAN pay taxes. Like countries in the European Union. And all the countries before the modern times that paid tribute to other states.

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

???

Corporations are a legal entity.
Do the laws defining what a corporation is, define the government as one?
If so, then it is.
If not, then it isn't.
In the states, the laws governing the government are definitely quite different from those governing a corporation.

If they have the same election mechanic- they are the same government type- the corporations is oligachic.

>the details

If the details do not change the election system- they are irrelevant. I repeat "Oligarchic governments are ruled by a small group of individuals that hold all political power.".
It is the same with the corporate government. So, the game itself states, that a corporation is oligarchic.

If we have oligarchs- they remain oligarchs, regardless of life levels in the empire, xenophobia or xenophile axis, etc.

You realize that there are corporations run by the people, right? Like share holders vote on a board of directors, vote on decisions they make, vote to confirm the CEO's, etc? Corporations exist in many shapes and sizes, from privately owned to publically traded. I've been in one that was authoritarian with the CEO not having to report to anyone (she was the owner), and I've seen some that are basically democracies.

There is one thing that is definitely true about the megacorp.

The ruler (CEO?) is chosen randomly (in gameplay terms) from a small selection of leaders, without input from the general public, and influence can be spent to 100% ensure a specific ruler.

So, the only thing we can say with 100% accuracy is, the ruler/CEO is not chosen democratically.

Everything else about the corporation's government (until we see the full flavor text) is undecided, and influenced by ethics. Maybe all the other leaders are chosen democratically? Maybe all decisions outside of the ruler's executive power are done by shareholder vote? Maybe all people are shareholders, maybe only some are, maybe the player is the only shareholder?

If all the decisions are made by other executives, or made by shareholder vote but there are very few very influential shareholders, then it's an oligarchy. Otherwise, it's not.

The oligarchy authority type specifically says decisions are made by a select few, that's why it's an oligarchy in flavor terms, not because of how the ruler is selected.

It's an oligarchy in game terms only because the game calls it one. All the authorities have a bunch of leaders you chose and almost all decisions made by you.

 

[grommile]

Except governments don't exist to make profit or benefit themselves, they exist to benefit the nation.

In theory.

In practice, there's a reason why the word "kleptocracy" exists.

 

[John Rusher]

???

Corporations are a legal entity.
Do the laws defining what a corporation is, define the government as one?
If so, then it is.
If not, then it isn't.
In the states, the laws governing the government are definitely quite different from those governing a corporation.

Spoiler

 

[Lanrete]

You seem to be missing my point. I'm not arguing in favour of natural environments in general, claiming them having superrior habitability to artificial ones. I'm talking about the distinction between environments which are optimized for your habitability and those, which are optimized for something else.
For instance, our planet is somewhat optimized for our life. Well, it's the other way around actually: it's us, who were optimized for the reproduction in this conditions by the optimization process - natural selection - anyway the point stands. Why is our planet habitable for us? Because we were developped the way to be living on it.
And now look at the Mars. Why isn't it habitable for us? Because there is no reason for it to be. There was no optimization process which either made Mars suitable for us nor us for Mars. Yet. Our sentience is actually a better optimization process than a natural selection in terms of capacity. We can indeed make Mars optimized for our habitability. Terraform it and so on. But now lets get back to Earth.
Look at Hong Kong. How comes that on a planet, where people are optimized to live, there is a city built by people, which is badly optimized for their habitability? How comes it easier to breath in the space station rather than in Hong Kong? Because the habitability isn't the optimization goal of building cities. Because the previously optimized enviromental conditions were sacrificed in favour of something else.
There are still lots of things to mention: the way to quantify habitability - the destinction between eating only larvae and having the ability to choose between multiple dishes and so on. But the most important point is the way that optimization processes works in general. If there is something to sacrifice for the sake of X - it will be sacrificed. So it seems improbable for ecumenopolises, which are optimized for dencity rather than than comfort of a single individual, to have perfect habitability

Cities are optimized for the comfort of the pop's. There is no logic in constructing an uncomfortable city, there are not that much resources saved if we build slums instead of a comfortable city (and the economic output of a proper city is much bigger), it doesn't require some super-duper tech, so, there should be no sacrifice of comfort. An eicumenopolis is not necessarily a "human sardine can", no, "by default", it is just a normal city, pumped out to planet proportions, instead of optimizing for dencity.

And even a sardine can can have a 100% hab, if we have proper pop's and a proper can to house them.

 

[Druplesnubb]

Well there were the Templars which had their own state, and other Orders like "The Knights" and "Teutonic Order". Also there were Mercenary companies which had their own countries at some point. And there was Brotherhood of the Coast... Yeah there were organizations like that in history.

The Knights are observer in the UN

You reminded me of how much I want a Military/Monastic Order Civic.

 

[Wilsonrost]

Will here be any update to Machine Worlds? Ecumenopolis looks pretty much like a Machine World for non gestalt empires. Also will organic hive mind get something similar?

Definitely loving the idea of a hive world! Seems to make sense to me too that a hive mind species may have a birthing world where it can produce its drones rapidly before serving them to the various resource sites it needs to exploit. Maybe the hive worlds would have bonuses to pop growth and immigration push so that its pops disperse out to the rest of the hive mind. This definitely inspires grand visions of vast harvest worlds feeding a colossal planet-sized birthing complex which in turn feeds the industry of the rest of the hive mind with drones. I sure hope something is added for them, of all types of empires and species, seems to me hive minds should be one of the most populous ones.

 

[Retry]

Actually, there are air generators/regenerators.

Typical submarine generators use electrolysis, a process which requires water. A submarine, obviously, is surrounded by water, so it's not difficult for one to grab some to electrolyze, and more to desalinate. Both processes require energy input, of course (which a Nuclear submarine has no issues of doing).

"Regenerators" are an entirely different concept in Thermodynamics and usually exist to reduce fuel consumption. In fact, thermodynamic regenerators don't involve chemical processes at all.