Stellaris Dev Diary #129 - Tradition Updates

[LeonOfOddecca]

So we do get an arbitrary administration cap on our Empire... I already hated that we were limited in our core worlds and now thats seems solved we get a cap on our whole Empire instead. And not even going tall will solve this as its calculated in a way that tall is only slightly better off than wide players...
That is the first thing I dont like in the upcoming update, and think it extra annoying. First thing I will do is either get a mod to remove it or worst case make one myself.

It's not a hard cap, it's a soft cap. There will be penalties if you go over, but you can go over. I think that's reasonable.

 

[adil3tr]

I think there are are a couple issues with traditions

1) To make them a better way of having a distinct style, you should get an additional bonus from the first 3 trees you complete on top of the completion bonuses in place right now. Otherwise it’s less like a play style and more a play order.

2) A lot of civics and traits actually feel a lot weaker than a single tradition. I feel like civics should be more distinct and shape gameplay rules more.

3) I don’t think opening up new trees should raise the cost of traditions since opening a lot of trees delays getting ascension perks anyway.

 

[sortulv]

So we do get an arbitrary administration cap on our Empire... I already hated that we were limited in our core worlds and now thats seems solved we get a cap on our whole Empire instead. And not even going tall will solve this as its calculated in a way that tall is only slightly better off than wide players...
That is the first thing I dont like in the upcoming update, and think it extra annoying. First thing I will do is either get a mod to remove it or worst case make one myself.

This is not like the core worlds cap - more like the cap of 1 system/colony/pop before you got any penalty to tradition/science... And I really don't think anyone tried removing that...

 

[WhapXI]

"have to reiterate that we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when 2.2 ‘Le Guin’ is coming out"

The day this sentence is missing will be a very happy day.

I think it'll be soon. They've gone from "diaries about the patch's new features" to "diaries about tweaks to old features". I think they mentioned that they were going to do four streams? I imagine the DLC will be announced either on the week of the fourth stream or the week after, with the dev diary on 01/11 being the first about DLC. Then maybe 6-8 weeks* of diaries about the DLC, and then release!

*This is based on prior patch/expansion diary cycles being about 6-8 diaries on the patch and then 6-8 diaries on the expansion. We've currently had an unprecedented 10 diaries on the 2.2 patch, with at least two more to come. Plus we have no idea how "big" the expansion is or what it's even about. It could be a dash of flavour for the planetary rework or could be massive new mechanics for pops and internal politics to really kick the hype up. This entire comment is supposition and therefore will be proved entirely wrong almost immediately.

 

[The Founder]

So we do get an arbitrary administration cap on our Empire... I already hated that we were limited in our core worlds and now thats seems solved we get a cap on our whole Empire instead. And not even going tall will solve this as its calculated in a way that tall is only slightly better off than wide players...

It really depends on how severe the penalties are. I asked a number of questions, but the devs choose to just post more screensoots without answering any of them.
So it is save to say, they have not yet decided on how it will work. Or even what role it might fullfill.

It's not a hard cap, it's a soft cap. There will be penalties if you go over, but you can go over. I think that's reasonable.

Technically the Core Sector Limit was only a Softcap, but one with penalties so severe it might have well been a hard cap.

Overall a lot about this part seems undecided. I guess we will ahve to wait before we know what it even does.

 

[Enska]

I think this empire size thing is pretty clever design: There is one number that tells you how "wide" you are, and its tooltip tells the penalties coming from it at one place. Compared to the live version, also leader and campaign costs are scaled, which makes sense as those cost energy rather than influence.

 

[henzington]

I love the removal of the unity bonuses in the traditions. It felt very placeholder that many traditions gave you unity bonuses

 

[Tisifoni12]

Authority. It should be renamed to authority.

Yes !

 

[prismaticmarcus]

The day this sentence is missing will be a very happy day.

Oh, the sentence is due to disappear onAAUUUGGHHHHH!!!!!!.......

 

[The Founder]

Authority. It should be renamed to authority

Yes !

That term is already used. "Authority" is used as the Government Type descriptor (Democratic, Oligarchic, Imperial, Hive Mind, Machine Intelligence).

 

[FiddleSticks96]

I think there are are a couple issues with traditions

1) To make them a better way of having a distinct style, you should get an additional bonus from the first 3 trees you complete on top of the completion bonuses in place right now. Otherwise it’s less like a play style and more a play order.

2) A lot of civics and traits actually feel a lot weaker than a single tradition. I feel like civics should be more distinct and shape gameplay rules more.

3) I don’t think opening up new trees should raise the cost of traditions since opening a lot of trees delays getting ascension perks anyway.

I love the removal of the unity bonuses in the traditions. It felt very placeholder that many traditions gave you unity bonuses

This is actually part of a deeper problem with the 4X genre in general. The biggest thing holding back civics/traditions in this game and the genre itself is lack of game changing ways to play. All most of the civics/traditions do is add some bonuses which might make you slightly better at a particular thing, but the overall strategy remains the same. This is why the truly game changing civics, such as the purifier type empires or the Life Seeded civic, as well as the Synthetic/Psionic Ascension paths are so appealing to me. These don't just give you some bonuses, they change the way you must play the game. This, in my opinion, is also what makes the bio ascension path so boring. You get better at a thing most empires can already do, but nothing really changes about your strategy.

If Stellaris had more civics and aps that didn't just give you some bonuses, but actually changes your approach to the game and how you interacted with the galaxy, we would see a lot more variety in gameplay and this game would go from amazing to legendary. I don't think such changes could come to the game anytime soon; however, with the economic changes coming in 2.2 I think going forward the devs will have a golden opportunity to really add some interesting new playstyles to the game. Consider Devouring Swarms for example, they are depicted as "eternally hungry" and the only way to satisfy that hunger is to devour other specious wholesale, but in practice you really don't have to do that at all. All you really need to do is build a few farms and BAM! no more food problems. What is hives in general, and DSs in particular, had to also spend food (with a reduced mineral cost) to construct armies and buildings? Or better yet, an entirely new resource like "Bio-Mass" that can be produced internally but can be produced very quickly by eating/farming organic pops? This is theoretically possible with the economic changes coming in 2.2. This is just a rough example of how gameplay could be made more diverse and interesting by not just giving an empire a set of bonuses, but actually changing how they function.

For a more eloquent explanation, I recommend watching this video when you have 14min of free time.

 

[adil3tr]

This is actually part of a deeper problem with the 4X genre in general. The biggest thing holding back civics/traditions in this game and the genre itself is lack of game changing ways to play. All most of the civics/traditions do is add some bonuses which might make you slightly better at a particular thing, but the overall strategy remains the same. This is why the truly game changing civics, such as the purifier type empires or the Life Seeded civic, as well as the Synthetic/Psionic Ascension paths are so appealing to me. These don't just give you some bonuses, they change the way you must play the game. This, in my opinion, is also what makes the bio ascension path so boring. You get better at a thing most empires can already do, but nothing really changes about your strategy.

If Stellaris had more civics and aps that didn't just give you some bonuses, but actually changes your approach to the game and how you interacted with the galaxy, we would see a lot more variety in gameplay and this game would go from amazing to legendary. For a more eloquent explanation, I recommend watching this video when you have 14min of free time.

I spend a lot of time in board game mechanics, where this is huge, asymmetry is possible, and often the competition is so tight that smaller changes do make huge shifts in strategy. So I get what you mean. My one issue would be that I don't want an arbitrary 3 path system like in Civilization Beyond Earth a number of other games. But when they can pull off big changes in gameplay they should go for it. I tend to do my plathroughs at whatever extreme to the most distinct play.

 

[Tavior]

This is actually part of a deeper problem with the 4X genre in general. The biggest thing holding back civics/traditions in this game and the genre itself is lack of game changing ways to play. All most of the civics/traditions do is add some bonuses which might make you slightly better at a particular thing, but the overall strategy remains the same. This is why the truly game changing civics, such as the purifier type empires or the Life Seeded civic, as well as the Synthetic/Psionic Ascension paths are so appealing to me. These don't just give you some bonuses, they change the way you must play the game. This, in my opinion, is also what makes the bio ascension path so boring. You get better at a thing most empires can already do, but nothing really changes about your strategy.

If Stellaris had more civics and aps that didn't just give you some bonuses, but actually changes your approach to the game and how you interacted with the galaxy, we would see a lot more variety in gameplay and this game would go from amazing to legendary. For a more eloquent explanation, I recommend watching this video when you have 14min of free time.

Hive Mind definitely suffer to a greater degree from lack of "interesting decisions" that all other different govt has.

At the empire creation you only have one really interesting decisions. To go full devourer and forgone diplomacy or go without. Everything else after that one single choice boil down to minor detail and doesn't affect your overall strategy that much.

There are few other govt suffer a bit but not as bad as Hive Mind right now is.

 

[Tisifoni12]

That term is already used. "Authority" is used as the Government Type descriptor (Democratic, Oligarchic, Imperial, Hive Mind, Machine Intelligence).

Stability, security, cohesion ?

 

[FiddleSticks96]

Hive Mind definitely suffer to a greater degree from lack of "interesting decisions" that all other different govt has.

At the empire creation you only have one really interesting decisions. To go full devourer and forgone diplomacy or go without. Everything else after that one single choice boil down to minor detail and doesn't affect your overall strategy that much.

There are few other govt suffer a bit but not as bad as Hive Mind right now is.

I just used hive empires because they are an easy example on how civics/empire types can change gameplay. Another example would be a Synthetically Ascended empire. It does change how you play the game to a degree, but could really use some interesting diplomatic options. I don't know if diplomacy is being worked on in depth in 2.2 or if they are saving that for a later update, but I do think diplomacy should be more dynamic based on something as extreme as an ascension path.

I'm in favor of expanding on the current ascension paths and even added at least a 4th option (or 5th, if you count the very boring machine empire ascension path). Come to think of it, more unique paths for gestalts would be a good thing, but I think it is more important to address regular empires first. Baring this, at least changing/adding civics that don't just give you bonuses, but actually affect your empire on a deeper level. Think of the Mining Guilds civic. It makes it seem like these space industries are such an important part of your empire that they are collectively a major political faction, but there is no such faction to be found anywhere in your empire. It is just another bonus that I don't think about.

 

[Graf von Streichen]

Seems very nice reworks ! Great idea to have adoption and finisher effects too, it was indeed a bit annoying to have to "waste" unity to aopt a tree without any more immediate effect. Amazing !

 

[The Founder]

Stability, security, cohesion ?

Stability is in use. Harmony gives a lot of Stabiltiy Bonus.

Are Security and Cohesion really proper descriptors?

 

[Tavior]

I just used hive empires because they are an easy example on how civics/empire types can change gameplay. Another example would be a Synthetically Ascended empire. It does change how you play the game to a degree, but could really use some interesting diplomatic options. I don't know if diplomacy is being worked on in depth in 2.2 or if they are saving that for a later update, but I do think diplomacy should be more dynamic based on something as extreme as an ascension path.

I'm in favor of expanding on the current ascension paths and even added at least a 4th option (or 5th, if you count the very boring machine empire ascension path). Come to think of it, more unique paths for gestalts would be a good thing, but I think it is more important to address regular empires first. Baring this, at least changing/adding civics that don't just give you bonuses, but actually affect your empire on a deeper level. Think of the Mining Guilds civic. It makes it seem like these space industries are such an important part of your empire that they are collectively a major political faction, but there is no such faction to be found anywhere in your empire. It is just another bonus that I don't think about.

I concur that civic need to be changed to be more meaningful like you point out mining guild is just a number you stop thinking about after picked it.

 

[Tisifoni12]

Stability is in use. Harmony gives a lot of Stabiltiy Bonus.

Are Security and Cohesion really proper descriptors?

Well domination doesn't seem appropriate.

What says crime reduction, competent politicians, motivated workforce ?

I'm in the UK and now finding it dfficult not to sarcastically make suggestions like 'omnishambles'.

 

[Masoz]

Well domination doesn't seem appropriate.

What says crime reduction, competent politicians, motivated workforce ?

I'm in the UK and now finding it dfficult not to sarcastically make suggestions like 'omnishambles'.

Well, obviously it won't fit if you are looking at the bonuses only, and completely ignoring the flavor and theme.

Yes, Judge Corps. will get you crime reduction. Via extremely authoritarian, brutal, and merciless methods of law enforcement.

Yes, Colonial Viceroys will give you more powerful politicians. Politicians that are cherry-picked loyalists enforcing the will of the state instead of representing the people.

Currently you'll have to use your imagination for Workforce Motivators since it has no description yet. But I have a sneaking suspicion it won't be just better bonuses and longer vacation time.