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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
2018_09_27_1.png

In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
2018_09_27_1_2.png


Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
2018_09_27_2.png

(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
2018_09_27_3.png


Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
2018_09_27_4.png

(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
Last edited:

Lys91

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The problem with this is that there is nothing to stop modifiers from snowballing out of control, because trade nodes and routes are dynamically generated and can be manually redrawn by the player, unlike EU4 where trade routes and nodes are fixed and there's a hard cap on the number of merchants you have.

My only issue is I cannot see clearly what trade-off you would need to consider right now, outside of maybe catching area to make sure every system fall under a trade-hub station influence? And maybe reducing the total number of trade routes to reduce the number of patrols you need to organise?
 

Judge_Holden

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May I also suggest that rather than using the military fleet directly to patrol trade routes, which may involve a degree of fiddly micromanagement, that the player simply has to commit a portion of their fleet capacity instead. The amount of fleet capacity required scales with the distance and value of the trade route with certain technologies or civics that can make this more efficient.

You could treat raiding fleets in a similar vein, which would allow foreign empires to disrupt a rival's trade routes without having to directly control the raiding fleet. Instead, a portion of fleet capacity can be committed to target a specific rival's trade, with this being less effective when used outside of direct conflict or formal wars. Again, certain technologies or civics could make raiding fleets more efficient.
 
Last edited:

Grand Historian

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Will the Hyperlane Registrar be getting an AoE similar to the new Trading Hubs? Something like that would actually make it viable and allow for the simulation of a road system in your empire without the need for gateways.
 

Wizzington

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Trade route seems to be a good source of income and gestalts do not have it at all. What will they have to remedy this weakness

That was addressed in dev diary #124
 

arc2611

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Don't know if it's been mentioned but sounds like trade routes might just be something that barbaric despoilers could take advantage of in some way.

For example, if despoilers should be able to flag fleets as 'pirate' (privateer?) which can then go and raid other nations' trade routes during peacetime (even across closed borders). Sure you may know it's coming from them, but you might not be in a position to declare war on them over it. As a bonus (though we havent heard anything about how it works yet) they may also get to gather slaves from it

It would be neat if barbaric despoilers could raid trade routes in neighbouring empires. Say, for every trade route that borders a system of theirs or is within range of one of their starbases the neighbour gets hit by an additional piracy malus and the barbaric despoilers get to steal some additional trade income.

Actual raiding fleets sounds like one of those things that might be cool but could potentially be incredibly annoying for those on the receiving end *cough* CK2 raiding adventurers *cough*
 

Zetesofos

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May I also suggest that rather than using the military fleet directly to patrol trade routes, which may involve a degree of fiddly micromanagement, that the player simply has to commit a portion of their fleet capacity instead. The amount of fleet capacity required scales with the distance and value of the trade route with certain technologies or civics that can make this more efficient.

Well, the one issue with that is then you're taking away one of the cool dynamics this system offers, which is now going to force you to likely have more corvettes and cruisers, and not just battleships to patrol. Wiz mentioned that ships will be re-balanced to have better anti-piracy bonuses (namely for light ships). In effect, your trade network will influence your military spread.
 

Pink81

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It would be nice to see a lot of small ships (maybe even with race style) flowing along the trade routes till the starbases/capital :)
More or less depending on the value of the trade route.
I think will make a more "living" galaxy.
 

Zetesofos

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Trade route seems to be a good source of income and gestalts do not have it at all. What will they have to remedy this weakness

Machines get generally increase efficiency on base resource production, and Hives get bonus pop growth and more densly packed districts. Wiz did mention they may add something else, but all is not known yet.
 

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@Wiz
Will there be way to set fleets on automatic patrol with a command or we doing this manually?
 

Exsolutus

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Trade route seems to be a good source of income and gestalts do not have it at all. What will they have to remedy this weakness

That was addressed in dev diary #124

Gestalts already have a large bonus from their districts and pops being more powerful. I remember people asking what would counter THAT when it was announced.
Looking forward to more information on all this @Wiz
 

arc2611

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It would be nice to see a lot of small ships (maybe even with race style) flowing along the trade routes till the starbases/capital :)
More or less depending on the value of the trade route.
I think will make a more "living" galaxy.

Or a few large civilian freighters occasionally crossing the void.

I'd imagine it would be less taxing on system resources to model a few large entities as opposed to many small ones.
 

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We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.
You could have each starbase's trade value increased by the population of all other starbase's planets in their collection radius in a network.
e.g Starbase A generates 15 trade value. Other starbases in the network service 105 population. So Starbase A's trade value is increased by 10.5%. It is then decreased by piracy across all the trade routes in the network (perhaps proportional to how much of it's trade goes through uncontrolled piracy systems).
You may have 2 networks that you could connect, but don't because of heavy pirate activity in the would-be connecting route which passes by a Raider Empire, and you can't spare the navy to patrol the area, so you split your network into 2. Smaller bonus to trade value in each network, but avoids a much higher penalty.
 

Guderian's Wild Ride

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@Wiz, reposting from last DD

A few questions/comments about the update:

  • I remember there being a martial law effect on planets that costs influence as a way to reduce crime, however have you thought about allowing militarists ethos empires the ability to normally use soldiers and fortresses to reduce (working class/slave/population being purged) unrest (but not crime), the idea being that while soldiers aren't very good at investigating crime but they're pretty good at crushing peaceful street protests or labor strikes, so even if your planets are high crime hell holes the people cast their eyes down go about their business for fear of getting shot at a rally.
  • Similarly, I really like the idea of different civics giving different leader jobs on planets instead of just making X thing Y% better for the entire empire forever (like aristocratic elite, corporate dominion and probably exalted priesthood), so how does this work with the police state civic? That is does the civic just make enforcers better at crushing crime or does it work at reducing unrest/ethics divergence/increasing core ethics attractions, and do these bonuses come from a leader job (like a "planetary security executor"), or from a certain number of high class secret police jobs.
  • As a sort of egalitarian opposite to the police state civic there could be a "colonial militia" civic, which provides a crime reducing Marshal job on each planet and reduces piracy in non-core systems, and when invaded a planet with a Marshal spawns a low damage/high morale army for every (working class?) population unit on the planet. The idea being that a representative accountable government is encouraging its population to remain armed and organized to assist the few law enforcement/military personnel defending the frontier/everyone is really motivated to defend their home and rights. Police state could also do something similar, but where it spawns a high damage, high morale army for every one of the (very small number of) secret police jobs, which buff the morale of friendly defending units and have a very low chance to get hit so long as other friendly units are still alive. The idea being that the secret police units are really well armed and motivated to defend the regime, while the regular soldiery are more scared of the regimes enforcer units blocking their path of retreat and of the political commissars (or spiritualists confessors) mixed into their ranks than they are of the enemy.
  • With the planetary/sector rework are there going to be "sector capital worlds" similar to the empire capital worlds, which serve as the center of government for a sector and allow for the construction of sector unique buildings which provide buffs to the entire sector. This could also allow for governors or members of other leader grounds to become physical entities on the planets, such as sector capitals having governor job positions, chief scientists existing within a research lab or ministry on the home world, ability to recruit/assign more scientists/generals/admirals/governors to different worlds for different buffs or to investigate special projects, or the existence of cabinet positions within the government similar to advisors from HOI4.
  • This also creates more risk if a planet is invaded and you can't evacuate leaders in time, leaders could be killed in fighting (collateral damage dependent), be captured and imprisoned/executed by the invaders, or turn their coat and join the invaders, giving them a free ruler and potentially mitigating unrest on the conquered world due to continuity of leadership (ethos dependent, an authoritarian ruler might permit a Quisling type to rule a conquered world but an egalitarian empire might try an authoritarian ruler for the crimes they've committed).
  • Similarly, you could then have a huge number of tech, traditions, civics and traits that could interact with some of the above, like a "deep mantle redoubt" tech which gives your leaders a huge chance to survive a planetary invasion/bombardment and allows them to survive and resume their duties once a world is recaptured (and/or they surrender once the war is over), or having the domination tree give a "military governors" tradition which makes planetary rulers count as generals in defensive invasion combat, increasing their chances of dying substantially as they lead their men from the front.
  • Whats the word on gene modding, are we going to be able to granulate what we mod down to a more refined degree than we currently can (that is, mod by strata, job, planet, etc instead of just planet)?
  • Have you thought about making the origins civics part of planet selection and keeping the rest of the being government related, as "living on a post nuclear hellhole" isn't really that government related. similarly, are their any plans to implement civics which can only be added after the start of the game, once certain cultural, civilizational or technological milestones have been made, like a materialist empire transitioning into a pseudo rogue servator empire when they unlock selfaware AI as they leave all the running of the government to the AI, or a where once every social strata has been modded to be a different species you can unlock a civic where you become like the government from gattica/brave new world, stratified along class/occupation with your genes predetermined to fit societies needs before your birth.
Well, thanks in advance, cheers.
 

Ikael

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Another great DD! There's a lot to unpack, so let's see:

- I think that it is very cool that hiveminds keep the old "roge drones" mechanic, while pirate attacks become tied to the new trade system. The more different the empires, the better

- It's great to know that population and its living conditions will generate trade value per se. This gives a quite interesting edge to empires with high living standards / populous empires

- The whole "turning trade value into many different types of resources" is an intriguing, albeit unexploited concept so far. As some people have suggested before, specific jobs turning trade value into different resources could be a good way to specialize economies and further differenciate empires

- Analyzing it with hindsight, turning the game into a starlane only was the right call. You wouldn't have been able to implement this kind of trade route mechanic with the old system

- It would be really cool if there would be certain resources that you could >only< obtain via trade value conversion rather than via jobs. Luxury items, perhaps?

- So we will finally see what's behind the misterious tab of misterious, important "decisions". Good, good


We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

Making sector capitals act as additional collection points would make their placement a quite interesting strategic choice and it will make them un-spammable as well. Also, a decreased collection rate for lower level capitals might encourage trade with your capital without discarding additional collection points altogether.
 

arc2611

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I want to point out that trade value increasing as you go downstream makes sense in EU4 because it represents the fact that certain goods (spice, silk, etc) were historically very rare and highly valued commodities that could only be obtained by trading the few specific places where they were produced, and their value increased the further west you travelled because they became less and less commonly available. Even then the system has quite a few flaws in its representation.

The question I have to ask is; why should a cargo hold full of minerals originating from planet X be more valuable than a cargo hold of minerals originating from planet Y, just because planet X is several hyperspace jumps further away from your homeworld? Unless there is some property that makes planet X's minerals more inherently valuable than planet Y's minerals there shouldn't be any reason for one planet's exports to be valued over another, and if both were of equal quality you'd prefer planet Y's minerals because of lower transport costs.
 
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