Stellaris Dev Diary #108 - 2.0 Post-Release Support (part 1)

[Zly_Boby]

typically only like 5-10% of players play multiplayer in these kinds of games... so wouldn't that make multiplayer small stuff too?

These are balance changes to not broken things, MP is broken - Bug fixes and THEN development

 

[Druski]

It feels like there's an idea being kicked around that War Exhaustion and how it affects gameplay (debuffs vs forced peace vs some other penalty) Would make a lot of sense if it was tied to the empire type. So when creating your empire, when you pick egalitarian, you're anticipating having to listen to your people's cries for peace (forced peace), while authoritarian simply punishes dissenters; but stomping out that internal resistance comes at an influence/unity/happiness costs (honestly needs to be harsher than 2.02). Could do something else for gestalt consciousness, like a loss of energy/minerals reflecting the loss of manpower. (though since it seems that we are firm on the forced-peace as a gameplay rule, These could all be different effects during the 24-month lead-up to peace, where each empire type would feel like they had a theme-legitimate reason as to why they had no choice but to declare peace)

There could be a number of ways to give further nuance to exhaustion in general too, such as slavers having a higher exhaustion rate but when they collect slaves (like though conquest or nihilistic acquisition) they actually lower their exhaustion. Militarists having their passive WE increase greatly reduced, or Freedom-loving types might lower their exhaustion when they liberate planets with their species on it (or xeno species too if they're xenophile), etc. There could be wartime policies to reduce the exhaustion rate that have a cost too. Diplomacy could be fleshed out a lot more with it too, like making requests to relent on claims, and other twists like Megacorporations could sell claims to other empires in diplomacy...etc. Basically, if you wanted to, War Exhaustion could be a major way to further differentiate playstyles of different empires.

 

[Vanayad]

@Wiz Any chance of increasing the speed of fleets ? I feel that it takes forever to fly anywhere...

 

[NemoRow]

May be it will be more clear to make Exhaustion an empire attribute, not the War-side one. And there are things which empire does which do affect exhaustion (like fighting space monsters or pirates). Or fighting wars. Exhaustion it is of an empire, so if I fight 3 wars, my exhaustion is a single instance, not 3 different ones.

With it in mind, exhaustion can become a nice extendable feature, which affects governing ethics attraction, happiness, unity and influence income. With its gradual nature it certainly would add some flavor to everything - from space exploration, through wars to crises.

 

[cestes]

For this reason, we will be reintroducing forced status quo peace, and this time it's here to stay.
View attachment 346664

How "game-y" and immersion breaking. I can almost understand this applying to democratic empires, but not swarms or determined exterminators. "Sorry robots, you may not believe in the mythical and nonexistent Galactic Supreme Federation Council, but you still have to follow the rules. Why? Because."

 

[pizzapicante27]

ALLOW SEPARATE PEACE DEALS ALREADY!!

Im tired of 30+ year long wars because I dont know what the rest of the AI Federation wants and the other side refuses to surrender because the cousin of the brother of their father's ally has some distant backwater planet on the ass end of the galaxy they are still in control of.

 

[Admiral_Obvious]

How "game-y" and immersion breaking. I can almost understand this applying to democratic empires, but not swarms or determined exterminators. "Sorry robots, you may not believe in the mythical and nonexistent Galactic Supreme Federation Council, but you still have to follow the rules. Why? Because."

Error: War was pre-calculated to take an estimate of 5 years. Recalculation is required to determine how effectively to exterminate the squishes. ETA: 10 years (also known as a truce).

 

[Jancarius]

Will this fix Fallen Empires constantly 'losing' wars to minor races in the 2200 and 2300s? I've several times now seen a Fallen Empire get pissed off (usually Holy Guardians, but once a Keeper of Knowledge), proceed to smash the younger Empire into the ground (taking huge swaths of their systems, utterly annihilating fleets, etc) only to 'lose' the war.

 

[Auspex29]

I think you'll better introduce huge "ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION!" flashing running line across the screen (pick final design from your favorite mecha anime), otherwise people will still miss it.

I hope to God it's the Evangelion one.

 

[Takfloyd]

Looks like there's still a long way to go before this version becomes as playable as 1.9.

You could have taken the obvious route of penalizing players who refuse a peace offer at 100% War Exhaustion, instead you brought back the widely reviled "war as a speedrunning challenge" system. Expect countless players to continue being turned away from your game, just like the everpresent posts from new players complaining about it on the Steam forums and elsewhere suggest. At least, there will be mods available for those of us who know that we have the option.

 

[ParasiteX]

I think these are great changes, but I do agree that WE should penalties. Although, I think it would be better if they scaled, as in EU IV.

The penalties would hurt the losing side far more than the winning side. The losers are already incentivised to want a status quo.
So the penalty would only make sense if it's exclusively applied to the winning side.

 

[Taritu]

@Wiz

Have to agree with many of the other posters here; (actually meaningful!) War Exhaustion penalties would be a much better option compared to a magically Forced Peace that "just kinda happens".

This game already offers so many mechanics that could be tapped to achieve the desired result without making the player feel like it's the game rather than circumstances dictating the end of a conflict. Examples:

• At 60% War Exhaustion, Pacifist Faction attraction begins to grow, indirectly affecting population Happiness and thus production. Attraction will rise in steps for every further 30% WE. Countered by propaganda efforts such as Information Quarantine or Hearts and Minds.

• At 80% War Exhaustion, Traits, Civics and Buildings/Modules that provide XP to new armies and ships are rendered inactive as training is rushed in order to churn out casualty replacements. An empire-wide penalty to Pop Growth comes into effect. Consumer Goods Cost increased by 5%.

• At 100% War Exhaustion, starships begin to accumulate minor stacking penalties to various stats as supply lines and maintenance cycles become unreliable. The penalties are randomized, but each ship is assigned one for every 10% WE above 90 (e.g. a cruiser might receive a -5% Fire Rate debuff at WE 100, and -5% Tracking at WE 110). If a ship is docked at an allied starbase at the start of the month, the newest penalty will be wiped. Consumer Goods Cost increased by 10%.

• At 120% War Exhaustion, Unrest begins to spread, increasing the risk of rebellion. Countered by garrisons and the Martial Law Edict. Armies receive a penalty to Damage and Health as the empire is "scraping the barrel" (to borrow a term from HoI4). Consumer Goods Cost increased by 15%. Leaders run an increased risk of receiving negative Traits such as Lethargic or Substance Abuser.

... and so on. At some point, continuing the war will become unbearable, but it'd be to the player to decide when this point comes, and it will be forced by tangible economic devastation rather than a timed pop-up in the game. Hell, if a player feels like sticking with a war indefinitely, have them run a risk of the empire splintering in a civil war.

Furthermore, I believe War Exhaustion should not just completely reset after a war, but instead recover slowly, making empires coming out of a devastating conflict vulnerable for a time. Aside from added realism, this would give even large empires a reason not to go overboard with their wars, lest they risk becoming easier targets for the enemies they made. As an added bonus, it would allow the addition of economic or even diplomatic measures for post-war "reconstruction" efforts, such as Edicts, Policies or Trade deals.

Ok, now, this is brilliant. Some version of this really seems to me how it ought to be done. Devs please read and consider.

(And I'm totally fine with forced peace, I really like it. But this is, imo, even better, especially if, even after the war, it slowly ticks down. It was years after WWII before Britain stopped rationing, and after WWI the demographic effects were terrible, with a whole class of women unable to marry +, of course, the fact that the peace set up WWII.)

 

[Kenshi]

Have to agree with many of the other posters here; (actually meaningful!) War Exhaustion penalties would be a much better option compared to a magically Forced Peace that "just kinda happens".

This game already offers so many mechanics that could be tapped to achieve the desired result without making the player feel like it's the game rather than circumstances dictating the end of a conflict. Examples:

• At 60% War Exhaustion, Pacifist Faction attraction begins to grow, indirectly affecting population Happiness and thus production. Attraction will rise in steps for every further 30% WE. Countered by propaganda efforts such as Information Quarantine or Hearts and Minds.

• At 80% War Exhaustion, Traits, Civics and Buildings/Modules that provide XP to new armies and ships are rendered inactive as training is rushed in order to churn out casualty replacements. An empire-wide penalty to Pop Growth comes into effect. Consumer Goods Cost increased by 5%.

• At 100% War Exhaustion, starships begin to accumulate minor stacking penalties to various stats as supply lines and maintenance cycles become unreliable. The penalties are randomized, but each ship is assigned one for every 10% WE above 90 (e.g. a cruiser might receive a -5% Fire Rate debuff at WE 100, and -5% Tracking at WE 110). If a ship is docked at an allied starbase at the start of the month, the newest penalty will be wiped. Consumer Goods Cost increased by 10%.

• At 120% War Exhaustion, Unrest begins to spread, increasing the risk of rebellion. Countered by garrisons and the Martial Law Edict. Armies receive a penalty to Damage and Health as the empire is "scraping the barrel" (to borrow a term from HoI4). Consumer Goods Cost increased by 15%. Leaders run an increased risk of receiving negative Traits such as Lethargic or Substance Abuser.

... and so on. At some point, continuing the war will become unbearable, but it'd be to the player to decide when this point comes, and it will be forced by tangible economic devastation rather than a timed pop-up in the game. Hell, if a player feels like sticking with a war indefinitely, have them run a risk of the empire splintering in a civil war.

Furthermore, I believe War Exhaustion should not just completely reset after a war, but instead recover slowly, making empires coming out of a devastating conflict vulnerable for a time. Aside from added realism, this would give even large empires a reason not to go overboard with their wars, lest they risk becoming easier targets for the enemies they made. As an added bonus, it would allow the addition of economic or even diplomatic measures for post-war "reconstruction" efforts, such as Edicts, Policies or Trade deals.

I have to disagree. Yes such penalties are more realistic than just an artificial forced peace, but they are not good for the game because they always punish the loser even more.

Imagine, You lost the first battles. You did not just lose more ships and systems you also get a punishing penalty making a coming back or recovery even harder.

Favouring blobbing wars again.

 

[Zoston]

people felt surprised by a sudden peace in which they might lose systems the enemy has just occupied days ago

I'm okay with returning forced peace, but this issue will still exist. It's just really unfun when the final months of a war become just a mad scramble to occupy systems you want, and prevent the AI from sneaking through and suddenly (re-)taking some random system.

Imo the system would really benefit from a longer occupation timer, where you can 'hold' a system immediately but it takes several months to properly occupy or liberate them. Meaning a status quo peace will reflect what the actual frontline was in the war, and not just a snapshot at the moment of peace.

A snapshot sounds okay in theory, but my experience is that any war involving an AI is too decentralized, with the AI ignoring systems seemingly at random and frequently skipping occupying the systems between their territory and their main target, or similarly skipping liberating systems. The AI is also really good at avoiding direct confrontations when your fleet outnumbers theirs. Which is good during the war, but it makes white-peace really annoying because you're not thinking "yes, I couldn't protect those systems well enough" but instead thinking "damn it, I didn't have time to whack that mole before the clock ran out." A longer timer of a few months instead of instant would make white peace more about holding and defending, and more predictable and less frustrating, imo.

 

[Taritu]

I have to disagree. Yes such penslties are more realistic than just an artificial forced peace but they are not good for the game because they always punish the loser even more.

Imagine, You lost the first battles. You did not just lose more ships and systems you also get a punishing penalty making a coming back or recovery even harder.

Favouring blobbing wars again.

And I must admit this is a good point as well. But I really do like the general line of thought there.

 

[Atlantis Stuart]

Another week, another patch without fixing enigmatic fortress *sigh*

Sorry Wiz but I hope to see this fixed ASAP rather than changing WE system back (even I know the calculation is more reasonable and it doesn't rise so crazily as 2.0)

 

[TheTam]

This is good
But I would add some additional malus, because now the war-timer (lets be honest, the new system was always just a countdown for your war) is just expanded by a fixed amount of time.
Give us (the player) an incentive to end the war at 100%

 

[Jotoco]

I still think there shouldn't be a forced peace.

But progressive penalties that would, in time, amount to the same thing.

Flat penalties to production of evertything, that increased until 100%.

Unrest that increased and generated revolt all over your systems, no matter how much unrest mitigating factors you had you would eventually hit 100 unrest in all planets.

And planets would literally split from your empire because of war exhaustion.

Would be nice if some of your leaders took one or more of your planets and fleets and simply deserted to another empire.

If faction attraction to the opposite of yours went up to the 1000%

That kind of penalty would work.

Imagine if you had to keep track of your empire's admirals and generals ideology and loyalty. (Higher level = higher loyalty)

Maybe even add the possibility to bribe then into not attacking or even full on deflecting. Though this would probably better in an expansion.

 

[Jancarius]

I'm okay with returning forced peace, but this issue will still exist. It's just really unfun when the final months of a war become just a mad scramble to occupy systems you want, and prevent the AI from sneaking through and suddenly (re-)taking some random system.

Imo the system would really benefit from a longer occupation timer, where you can 'hold' a system immediately but it takes several months to properly occupy or liberate them. Meaning a status quo peace will reflect what the actual frontline was in the war, and not just a snapshot at the moment of peace.

A snapshot sounds okay in theory, but my experience is that any war involving an AI is too decentralized, with the AI ignoring systems seemingly at random and frequently skipping occupying the systems between their territory and their main target, or similarly skipping liberating systems. The AI is also really good at avoiding direct confrontations when your fleet outnumbers theirs. Which is good during the war, but it makes white-peace really annoying because you're not thinking "yes, I couldn't protect those systems well enough" but instead thinking "damn it, I didn't have time to whack that mole before the clock ran out." A longer timer of a few months instead of instant would make white peace more about holding and defending, and more predictable and less frustrating, imo.

In my experience, I usually wind up expanding or conquering my way to 'chokepoints' and then ceasing my expansion there until I am ready to push to the next chokepoint because when you have 'wide' lanes or multiple points of access, it just becomes too much of a pain to chase down that 600 power corvette fleet that slipped past and is taking outposts.

 

[Jorlem]

For this reason, we will be reintroducing forced status quo peace, and this time it's here to stay. However, we are not simply going to roll back to exactly the way it is in 2.0, instead it will now work as follows:
- When a side in a war reaches 100% war exhaustion, they are now flagged as being at high war exhaustion, and get the alert as before
- Once at high war exhaustion, a 24 month timer will start to tick down for that side in the war. Once the timer is up, that war side can be forced into a status quo peace
- There will be no penalties for war exhaustion, but we will leave in the functionality for modders, as well as the ability to change the number of months before a forced peace is possible or disable forced peace altogether, so that those who truly hate to the idea of ever being forced to peace can at least change it through modding

How will this interact with the War in Heaven? In the games I played with forced status quo peace, that was how the War in Heaven ended every time.