Stellaris Dev Diary #106: 2.0.2 patch notes and the Road Ahead for Cherryh | Page 29

RhoDaZZ · Mar 2, 2018

The thing with war exhaustion balance is that it's trying to do the same for two different archetypes, even though they have completely different ways in which they want to wage war.

Non-diplomatic states want to have a total victory, which in 2.0 they couldn't ever realistically get in the time that ran before war exhaustion reached 100 %, unless it was late game. This meant wars in 2.0 were just about defending your own outposts from being sniped and taking as many of theirs+planets until the timer inevitably ran out.

Diplomatic states have access to wargoals that tick up before a total victory, and so will naturally conclude their wars earlier. What was effectively a hard-cap on war duration, therefore favored diplomatic states in the balance metagame very heavily (at least before late-very late game hit).

Likewise, "unlimited" war timers makes the cleansing etc. CBs much stronger, and the claim-conquer CBs comparatively weaker (when you factor in truce timers).

I understand why warscore was removed, but as it is now the rather simple war exhaustion system needs an overhaul with more (not less) conditions that add and take away from it - if the goal is a balance that doesn't make any archetype clearly better or worse.

Wombats O' War · Mar 2, 2018

Krabbz said:
The Enigmatic Fortress is still bugged as hell...

Put in a bug report on the Bug Report subforum. That's the best way to let them know it's borked.

Luaro · Mar 2, 2018

Ai building habitats and not using them at all

Tale · Mar 2, 2018

Zikimoto said:
I just made an account to come say the new war system really sucks I've been doing all the work in a current war while my federation buddy has been picking daisies and when I hover over the status quo he wants to give 6 claims up to my ally and take 2 from me like wtf is this shit im kicking his ass and he wants my territories? this retard only has one 2k power fleet left to stand against my 14k power fleet why the hell does he get any leverage in peacetime discussions. TLDR new war system is trash old wasn't super good either but still better

Status quo is for what's occupied.

He can ask for more because he took more and you, despite your complaints that he's so weak, seem unable to stop him.

Zikimoto · Mar 2, 2018

also what the hell is up with the new movement system even though i have had a science ship previously go through all the enemies hyperlanes there are still some sectors that even though they have 2 crystal clear routes leading to them say that there is no route for the selected fleet to reach the system and wont even let me send a science ship into them

Ur-Quan Lord 13 · Mar 2, 2018

Zikimoto said:
also what the hell is up with the new movement system even though i have had a science ship previously go through all the enemies hyperlanes there are still some sectors that even though they have 2 crystal clear routes leading to them say that there is no route for the selected fleet to reach the system and wont even let me send a science ship into them

Yah, I saw that before the patch too. Both not going to systems that are open and I could manually send them to, and systems that appeared open but were inaccessible (without switching to passive).

For the first, either a bug, or some hidden max distance on auto explore? Dunno.

For the second, my only guess is some tiny hostile station in the way that doesn't show on the galaxy map... Or also a bug

Mitchella35 · Mar 2, 2018

Twoflower said:
Yes, it has an impact, but I do not think it is necessarily a bad one.
It makes energy matter in the early game, and gives you a good reason to invest your early minerals and population in stuff that produces energy.
Before, the (in my opinion too) obvious strategy for the early game was to focus on minerals and unity, and only ever use planet tiles and excess minerals for energy production when you started to run a deficit. Having your capacity to sustain rapid expansion dependent on energy - along with the new energy-based campaigns - makes investing in energy early on a valid option, while keeping minerals and unity relevant as well.
Making choices more meaningful is always a good thing in a strategy game, even if it makes the game a little harder.

I don't disagree that making choices meaningful is a good thing, I think this disproportionately impacts the ability to expand in the early game and particularly for Machine Empire who pay 1 energy per population. That already forces a hard choice between energy and minerals. If Energy needs to matter more then I would suggest lowering energy cost for machine pops, or leaving it all as it is and increase the energy cost for Ships to 0.75% and the mineral cost down to 0.75%.

That leaves you with no net change in overall cost but shunts energy up in value and minerals down in value whilst forcing more meaningful choices about ship uses and not removing play options from certain species that are affected most by this suggested change. Personally, I will just mod it back to the way it was, but I see no benefit in doing what they have suggested and modding is back to the way it was is just a pain to keep up with it every version iteration.

Matt516 · Mar 2, 2018

@Zikimoto, read about the claims system.

Hype · Mar 2, 2018

Asarii said:
wondering if the AI can handle this as well

They pay significantly reduced maintenance so they shouldn't really have a problem handling it.

Falc said:
This is unlikely to happen, because there's some indication that trading hubs are actually too good.

There's a thread on the Stellaris Reddit (don't believe I can link to it...) where someone is earning 115 energy from planets, 500 from stations and 315 from starbases.

Remember you can place up to 6 trading hubs on a single starbase, plus the building that increases their output...

Since starbases are your main source of fleet capacity now with anchorages each trading hub is a trade off. They probably shouldn't be buffed but having them be strong is a good thing I think.

genghispwn · Mar 2, 2018

Hi, first post! I think I encountered a bug in the new patch. Let me know if there is a better place to submit bug reports. After the Abandoned Terraforming Equipment event, xenomorphs spawned and took over my colony and now I can't land my army to save all my dudes before they are purged/dissembled. It says "Planet must be colonized before armies can land." Thanks!

Poohbah · Mar 2, 2018

1 energy upkeep for outposts is just gonna make the already dumb border situation even worse. I already don't build outposts in systems that are kinda not worth it, now the threshold for me to build one will be even higher.

Ur-Quan Lord 13 · Mar 2, 2018

Hype said:
They pay significantly reduced maintenance so they shouldn't really have a problem handling it.

Since starbases are your main source of fleet capacity now with anchorages each trading hub is a trade off. They probably shouldn't be buffed but having them be strong is a good thing I think.

Yah, you're gonna need anchorages to fight fallen empires and end game crises.

Ur-Quan Lord 13 · Mar 2, 2018

Poohbah said:
1 energy upkeep for outposts is just gonna make the already dumb border situation even worse. I already don't build outposts in systems that are kinda not worth it, now the threshold for me to build one will be even higher.

Yah, but that's at the cost of letting pirates spawn literally anywhere in your empire and having to respond (increased ship maintenance) and rebuild the stations they've taken out, and just be generally annoyed.

Until you have a gateway network set up within jump distance of every unoccupied system.

They did it because having a strong energy economy was just too easy. This cuts that down went from energy surpluses higher than my mineral surpluses to actually having to think about it during a war.

Zikimoto · Mar 2, 2018

Matt516 said:
@Zikimoto, read about the claims system.

it makes sense now up until this point my past conquests had all the territory i had claimed owned by me at the end of the war and i just didnt notice that
so when all of a sudden i had them on the brink but didnt happen to own any of the systems i had claimed(federation buddy claimed most of the shit i conquered) it wont transfer me control since i dont currently control them. war exhaustion definitely needs fixing though it happens to fast

ShoGuL · Mar 2, 2018

By the way, not sure if it has been mentioned but this patch is a huge buff to pacifists.

Fanatic pacifist now gets +10% yields from all mining and research bases from day 1. That's massive!

Leovinas · Mar 2, 2018

Been playing a few minor games to get the hang of Apocalypse.

One thing that slightly ruined my latest one was that I had the Enigmatic Fortress a few systems away from my homeworld - no big problem, except that it wiped my entire fleet when it auto-navigated home from across the map - right through the Fortress.

Some kind of pathfinding tweak might be in order so that fleets don't do something patently suicidal like auto-navigating through a Leviathan. The first I knew something was up was the 'combat' alert followed about half a second later by the 'fleet lost' alert. Either a pathfinding tweak so they don't blunder into a known Leviathan, or the ability to toggle certain systems as off-limits unless I give a very specific instruction to go there, might be in order.

Actually, come to think of it, the ability to plant a warning beacon or something on the edge of a system would be really cool, particularly if a player came across an alien or historical one in an otherwise suspiciously-deserted system.

alastormourning · Mar 2, 2018

Jamor (and the rest of the Stellaris Team),

Thank you for providing a preview of your plans and for encouraging consumer feedback. I would like to take you up on that offer and provide you with my reaction to Stellaris 2.0. I hope that you'll take it in the respectful but frank and honest way that it's intended. I registered on the Paradox Forums for the first time to respond to your Dev Diary in hope that my voice would be heard.

I am very disappointed with Stellaris 2.0. Forcing hyperlanes onto the game created fixed entry and exit points for each "map tile" -- this is a hallmark of land warfare. So in essence, it changed Stellaris from a space game into a randomly-generated Risk board with stars painted on it.

While there were a number of good changes made to keep war from being more than a fleet-numbers game and to make starbases useful, none of these changes required fundamentally altering the game's context so dramatically. I feel like the new update took two steps forward, but it left a broad, inclusive road and stepped onto a narrow road that not everyone wants to walk.

I paid for the expansion, and I don't necessarily regret it. As long as my friends continue to enjoy the game, I will probably play it with them to spend time with them, even if I don't enjoy it as much as I used to.

However, if the option to use other forms of propulsion isn't restored, it is unlikely that I will purchase further expansions for Stellaris. And this experience with having the game so radically changed against the players' wishes will probably prevent me from purchasing other, unrelated Paradox products in the future unless I see more encouraging behavior from the company in the meantime.

I appreciate the hard work the Stellaris Team has done, and I thank you for reading and passing on your customers' thoughts on your side.

Stolen Rutters · Mar 2, 2018

Re energy availability:

Only played one opening with 2.0, restarted with 2.01, and restarted again with 2.02. All three galaxies were fairly rich in nearby energy. Energy surplus was superb before adding outpost cost, seemed just right after the cost went in.

I think adding outpost cost is a good thing. About 75 percent of nearby star systems had at least 2 energy, more than half the star systems have at least six total resources combined.

That’s 100 minerals and 75 influence to extend my border and, with just one more 90 mineral build, posititve energy net to my empire, plus access to either minerals, science, or more energy. On the 2.02 start, I was able to lock away maybe 30 systems on a standard start before I was blocked by neighbors (two friendlies and two angries). I added four colonies within that space, (plus a dozen red planets I would need tech or uplift to colonize).

So again, I like the outpost cost, conceptually, and I have had three maps in a row where the balance seemed right.

One energy per outpost could work if the energy is as available as my three starts, but with the complaints about lack, maybe I just got lucky.

Semicolons · Mar 2, 2018

Jamor said:
* Added tier 5 Dark Matter thrusters that can only be gained by scavenging Fallen Empire ships

BlackUmbrellas · Mar 2, 2018

alastormourning said:
Jamor (and the rest of the Stellaris Team),

Thank you for providing a preview of your plans and for encouraging consumer feedback. I would like to take you up on that offer and provide you with my reaction to Stellaris 2.0. I hope that you'll take it in the respectful but frank and honest way that it's intended. I registered on the Paradox Forums for the first time to respond to your Dev Diary in hope that my voice would be heard.

I am very disappointed with Stellaris 2.0. Forcing hyperlanes onto the game created fixed entry and exit points for each "map tile" -- this is a hallmark of land warfare. So in essence, it changed Stellaris from a space game into a randomly-generated Risk board with stars painted on it.

While there were a number of good changes made to keep war from being more than a fleet-numbers game and to make starbases useful, none of these changes required fundamentally altering the game's context so dramatically. I feel like the new update took two steps forward, but it left a broad, inclusive road and stepped onto a narrow road that not everyone wants to walk.

I paid for the expansion, and I don't necessarily regret it. As long as my friends continue to enjoy the game, I will probably play it with them to spend time with them, even if I don't enjoy it as much as I used to.

However, if the option to use other forms of propulsion isn't restored, it is unlikely that I will purchase further expansions for Stellaris. And this experience with having the game so radically changed against the players' wishes will probably prevent me from purchasing other, unrelated Paradox products in the future unless I see more encouraging behavior from the company in the meantime.

I appreciate the hard work the Stellaris Team has done, and I thank you for reading and passing on your customers' thoughts on your side.

Bye

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