Stellaris Dev Diary #101 - Marauders, Pirates and the Horde

[methegrate]

If we did, people would complain nothing was happening

I think there's less daylight there than you'd think. Running your empire without interruption is basically an idler.

Extra Credits did a great episode on this once. Events like this which upset the status quo give your game uncertainty. You know something can happen, but you never know what or when. Without that uncertainty you don't have a game, you have a puzzle (their words, but accurate imho). You take your map, solve for empire stability, then execute that known solution until you win.

For a 4X in the early game, yes, running your empire is about building internal stability and gathering scarce resources. By midgame in virtually any 4X, though, that job is done. After that running your empire is about dealing with challenges you can't solve for, either because you don't know they're coming or because you don't know where/how/when they'll show up. (A couple pages back we were talking about critical resources, which is another way of achieving this effect.)

It's exactly this lack of uncertainty which is the reason that Stellaris' midgame so famously slogs. Unless the game occasionally throws a spanner in the works, nothing does happen. 4X midgame play is about responding to challenges and changing conditions, which tests how well you spent the early game building your empire. A well built empire has the flexibility to change strategy and adapt to situations that range from asymmetric to outright unfair. It will emerge from that turbulence stronger than ever. A poorly built one is brittle, only able to thrive under optimal conditions, so that by the time you reach late game those empires have been winnowed out for the final showdown.

(On which point, I'd love to see more asymmetry of play in Stellaris... It's why I loved the original AI rebellion so much. I spend the whole game preparing to defend my borders from attack, only to all of a sudden find my civilian militia fighting their own robots on half my planets? Wonderful!)

 

[Devanor]

Holy wall of text

So... what you want is, in essence, more stuff to happen in mid game, albeit the player will never truly know what or when unlike the Khan and awakening of FE's? (end-game crisis may or may not happen given circumstances and even then it's difficult to guess which one will appear, so players always prepare for it in the end)

 

[methegrate]

So... what you want is, in essence, more stuff to happen in mid game, albeit the player will never truly know what or when unlike the Khan and awakening of FE's? (end-game crisis may or may not happen given circumstances and even then it's difficult to guess which one will appear, so players always prepare for it in the end)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

Basically, I'm saying this is how you design a 4X. "Stuff" and "uncertainty" are two very different concepts.

Stuff just happens. It's pop-up events. Stuff is great, but it's set dressing. It doesn't change or add to core mechanics.

Uncertainty is something which causes the player to re-evaluate the gameboard and periodically adapt his or her strategy. It is absolutely essential if the game is to feel engaging past the point where the player has built a stable, thriving empire. In most games that building happens early on because players know how the game's systems work, so empire building is just about exploring the board and finding out how those systems apply to any given play through. That doesn't take too long, which is why it marks the end of the early game.

So, the state of the board is the initial uncertainty. Or, as it can be otherwise called, "scarcity of information." It makes the early game exciting, but that uncertainty goes away as you reveal the map. It then has to be replaced with other information the player lacks and which will be revealed in a manner sufficient to force them to respond to changing conditions. (Stellaris has never been great at this. When you consider how many reviews have said that Stellaris' best part is the early exploration, that's why.)

That's what makes the midgame feel engaging. Otherwise a player will take that solution they settled on in the first 10 minutes of play and simply execute on it over and over again for the next X hours of play.

Is that what you were asking?

 

[Devanor]

Is that what you were asking?

I guess? From your reply, I figured you wanted more stuff to happen, especially in the midgame, but that it was unpredictable in order to spice things up.

If that's so, I'm curious why you replied to me, since my reply was to someone who seemingly thought too much is happening so we "never have time to actually develop our empire"

 

[methegrate]

I guess? From your reply, I figured you wanted more stuff to happen, especially in the midgame, but that it was unpredictable in order to spice things up.

If that's so, I'm curious why you replied to me, since my reply was to someone who seemingly thought too much is happening so we "never have time to actually develop our empire"

Oh, just because I was saying that I don't really see a difference between events and empire management. Responding to big events, like a crisis, is how you manage your empire.

Replying to you just seemed like the next step in the conversation. I didn't mean anything by it.

 

[JosunUrashima]

Indeed, it's a common misconception that is used to sweep a whole (fascinating) period of history under the carpet. There was 40 years of war, but the Seleucid Empire at least was very extensive and powerful, and the Ptolemies weren't that far behind.

I also noted the use of the term 'satrap', which is presumably a reference to the Persian system the Macedonians took over. It's funny, though, because a satrap was only vaguely independent for as long as the king's attention was elswhere, the kings could and did order the execution of disobedient satraps and stuff like that - which doesn't really sound like how it will be used in Stellaris.

Well, I mean, does it entirely work that way in CK2 where a Shah is ruling over Satraps? Paradox works mostly to mimic reality, not copy it wholesale

 

[terrycloth]

So....now we have Endless Space 2-style pirates, followed by the Great Khan, followed by Awakened Empires, followed by the Endgame Crisis. Will we actually have time to run our space empire in between these scripted interruptions?

If it's anything like the 'pirate waves' mod... no. No you won't.

 

[JosunUrashima]

*SNIP*

Is that what you were asking?

Actually, I wouldn't mind more 'stuff' as you termed it as well, especially for exploration and the like. At this point I've played enough games in early game for exploration to be... well, boring and not at all interesting or exciting anymore except when the rare interesting and exciting event chain I haven't found pops up.

 

[methegrate]

Actually, I wouldn't mind more 'stuff' as you termed it as well, especially for exploration and the like. At this point I've played enough games in early game for exploration to be... well, boring and not at all interesting or exciting anymore except when the rare interesting and exciting event chain I haven't found pops up.

Personally I hope the galatic geography will help that a lot. More events are always cool I suppose, but idk. They’ve never interested me all that much. They’re neat the first couple times you see them, but I buy games like this for replay ability. Events just don’t do that for me. I mean, not to throw stones, but how many times can you tow that same damn ship out of a gas giant?

Imho it’s mechanics that will wake that part of the game back up, that curiosity about what’s in the next star and the chance that it will be something really cool.

 

[Caligula Caesar]

Well, I mean, does it entirely work that way in CK2 where a Shah is ruling over Satraps? Paradox works mostly to mimic reality, not copy it wholesale

I don't really know much about Medieval Persian history, so I can't say how that worked then, they may have kept the name from Ancient Persia and changed the practices. (I was talking about the Persia that was conquered by Alexander the Great in the 330s and 320s BC, and then the Macedonian empires that ruled the area for the next 2-300 years)

 

[fgalkin]

Are you unironically complaining that all of the content is getting in the way of your simming?

I'm complaining about magically spawning fleets of doom making traditional AI factions irrelevant, yes. Is the AI that bad that even the usual resource boosts and cheating are not enough to keep the player from steamrolling, so you must come up with a constant stream of interruptions to make the game even remotely challenging?

 

[methegrate]

I'm complaining about magically spawning fleets of doom making traditional AI factions irrelevant, yes. Is the AI that bad that even the usual resource boosts and cheating are not enough to keep the player from steamrolling, so you must come up with a constant stream of interruptions to make the game even remotely challenging?

Let's not forget, though, that this is what MOOII did. The Antarans were basically a magically spawning fleet of doom that would periodically just show up and wreck you. It worked extraordinarily well.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I'm complaining about magically spawning fleets of doom making traditional AI factions irrelevant, yes. Is the AI that bad that even the usual resource boosts and cheating are not enough to keep the player from steamrolling, so you must come up with a constant stream of interruptions to make the game even remotely challenging?

Pirates aren't a normal AI faction, they're more like an environmental hazard. Your argument is meaningless.

 

[Tim_Ward]

So....now we have Endless Space 2-style pirates, followed by the Great Khan, followed by Awakened Empires, followed by the Endgame Crisis. Will we actually have time to run our space empire in between these scripted interruptions?

I mean... yes?

 

[Bayonnefrog]

I feel like Stellaris has great potential to become THE definitive 4x space game of all time and the Marauder is the type of change we need. Instead of 50 different bugs/animal races that look rediculous and that all kind of act the same in-game you need to make this Marauder group a playable race from the very start with a totally different play style from other races. More interesting options needed please! I got bored in my first play through and feel like quiting. This game needs better more interesting diplo. More ship options. There are so many things you can pull from in sci-fi. Where are the cloaked ships??? How do you now have that? Cloaked spies??? Colonizing a planet and staring at that pop screen is the most boring thing EVER. THere is zero sense of growing your planet, or expansion besides the big map with your name on it. Planets, systems should develop, look alive, change. Ships buzzing around doing stuff. Where is the fun??? Make more interesting options PLEASE!!! The other empires all act the same-none of them want to trade. They all sit there doing nothing. They're all pointless ridiculous looking bugs ugh.

 

[methegrate]

I feel like Stellaris has great potential to become THE definitive 4x space game of all time and the Marauder is the type of change we need. Instead of 50 different bugs/animal races that look rediculous and that all kind of act the same in-game you need to make this Marauder group a playable race from the very start with a totally different play style from other races. More interesting options needed please! I got bored in my first play through and feel like quiting. This game needs better more interesting diplo. More ship options. There are so many things you can pull from in sci-fi. Where are the cloaked ships??? How do you now have that? Cloaked spies??? Colonizing a planet and staring at that pop screen is the most boring thing EVER. THere is zero sense of growing your planet, or expansion besides the big map with your name on it. Planets, systems should develop, look alive, change. Ships buzzing around doing stuff. Where is the fun??? Make more interesting options PLEASE!!! The other empires all act the same-none of them want to trade. They all sit there doing nothing. They're all pointless ridiculous looking bugs ugh.

Quarter to Three (I think) gave what I thought was one of the best reviews of the game, where they noted that for all of Stellaris' ambition the game still lacks personality. I generally agree with that.

I think they're on the money with 2.0. War and handling fleets is most of your actual playtime, so it needed the most immediate triage. But if I were in Wiz's shoes, I would make the next update focused on that sense of personality and distinction. Personally, I strongly disagree with the posters who ask for that to be handled through more pop up events. It needs to happen at the mechanical level. It needs empires that feel different and alien from each other.

Certainly there needs to be more. That sense of personality might require some story writing to give the game context. It needs technology decisions that take your empire in totally different directions. It needs a galaxy map with features that inspire avarice, calculation and dread. If there are leaders, it needs them to have personality. Your core planets need development options to make them special. Sectors, as the main tool of civilian development, need something to make them more interesting than just choosing one of four focus areas and then clocking out.

But agreed. I'd definitely start with empire and race distinction.

 

[JosunUrashima]

Quarter to Three (I think) gave what I thought was one of the best reviews of the game, where they noted that for all of Stellaris' ambition the game still lacks personality. I generally agree with that.

I think they're on the money with 2.0. War and handling fleets is most of your actual playtime, so it needed the most immediate triage. But if I were in Wiz's shoes, I would make the next update focused on that sense of personality and distinction. Personally, I strongly disagree with the posters who ask for that to be handled through more pop up events. It needs to happen at the mechanical level. It needs empires that feel different and alien from each other.

Certainly there needs to be more. That sense of personality might require some story writing to give the game context. It needs technology decisions that take your empire in totally different directions. It needs a galaxy map with features that inspire avarice, calculation and dread. If there are leaders, it needs them to have personality. Your core planets need development options to make them special. Sectors, as the main tool of civilian development, need something to make them more interesting than just choosing one of four focus areas and then clocking out.

But agreed. I'd definitely start with empire and race distinction.

In regards to events, I think they'll be tied into one of the things you mentioned- making different empires feel different. There needs to be more that makes it so playing a Holy Tribunal feels different to playing as a Megachurch. There needs to be differences and more things to each of the government types that actually legitimately make it worthwhile to try each one out.

 

[methegrate]

In regards to events, I think they'll be tied into one of the things you mentioned- making different empires feel different. There needs to be more that makes it so playing a Holy Tribunal feels different to playing as a Megachurch. There needs to be differences and more things to each of the government types that actually legitimately make it worthwhile to try each one out.

Agreed.

And admittedly, part of the problem here is Stellaris’ sandbox ambition. My impression is that Paradox wants it to be a blank slate for storytelling, generally emergent and procedural. That’s a much tougher order. The more distinct a piece is, the more likely it is that the game will one day use that element/mechanic/concept in an awkward manner.

When you can write a pre-existing world like Amplitude you’ve got a lot more room to make bold or distinctive strokes.

 

[Cossack_of_Hetmanschina]

And so...wait, Horde's leader's a rumored psychic? This , as well as Orc portraits, means...SPACE GUL'DAN COMING!

 

[JosunUrashima]

Agreed.

And admittedly, part of the problem here is Stellaris’ sandbox ambition. My impression is that Paradox wants it to be a blank slate for storytelling, generally emergent and procedural. That’s a much tougher order. The more distinct a piece is, the more likely it is that the game will one day use that element/mechanic/concept in an awkward manner.

When you can write a pre-existing world like Amplitude you’ve got a lot more room to make bold or distinctive strokes.

Oh without a doubt, and while I understand that it's something that I think could probably be worked on. I honestly expect to see an expansion at some point that focuses greatly on expanding the differences in governments and giving each of them a bit more distinctiveness. Not necessarily so much that it loses some of the sandboxiness, but enough that there is, to use some examples, that playing as a Star Empire versus say Direct Democracy. Because in my experience, especially out of a desire to try everything *brick'd* that there isn't much difference between the two except what rping you do.