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Imperator: Rome Dev Diary, 17th of February 2020

Hello!

This week we are taking a look at a unique set of missions for Syracusae; the dominant Greek power in Sicily known for its tyrants, resistance to siege, and, of course, the mathematician Archimedes.

The Magna Graecia content pack will include 4 mission trees for this city which centre on securing control of eastern Sicily, expelling the Carthaginians from the island, and dominating the Italiote colonies of southern Italy. A fourth tree will give you the chance to unseat the tyrant of Syracuse and re-establish a republic, but coups are not exactly certain affairs…

Let's take a look at these trees one by one and cover the opportunities they present to this historic city.

Leadership of the Siceliotes
Syracuse has been scrapping with the other Siceliote cities for centuries, and the latest tyrant Agathokles has almost succeeded in securing total control of the east. Starting as a humble potter, he rose to power with the financial backing of his wife’s father, eventually crowning himself king of all Sicily in emulation of the diadochi.

Below we can see the tree, edited into one image.

syracuse1.png


This tree focuses on dominating all of eastern Sicily and developing Syracuse itself after the strife, purges, and constant warfare suffered by the city. This is intended to be the first tree of a Syracuse play-through and to put them in good stead to go toe-to-toe with the Carthaginians.

Securing the rival city of Akragas will allow you to reap the benefits of its many temples (and their treasuries), there are opportunities for making eastern Sicily into a agricultural powerhouse through its famous grain, and the island of Ortygia's fortifications and Holy Site to the nymph Arethousa can be expanded.

soldiersoffortune.png


If the situation is dire, the famous Italic mercenaries who have made a living off centuries of warfare on the island can be approached, granting a significant but temporary reduction in the cost of their services.

Punic Rivalry
The Sicilian-Punic conflicts could easily be a game in their own right, spanning centuries of bitter struggles, always resulting in an uneasy stalemate. In recent history, the defeat of Dionysios I of Syracuse was close, but lead to Carthaginian domination of the Hellenic cities of Selinous, Herakleia Minoa, and Therma. Avenging these defeats is the first step to reconquering western Sicily.

After deposing Dionysios' son and restoring a republic, Timoleon only narrowly succeeded in defending Hellenic Sicily from a huge Carthaginian invasion, purportedly defeating their army despite almost impossible odds and slaughtering their native contingent - creating a general Punic reluctance to send their own sons to battle, instead relying mainly on mercenaries.

Not long ago, Agathokles was repulsed after an initially successful invasion of Carthaginian Africa, and an uneasy peace has once again ceded western Sicily to Punic subjugation.

syracuse2.png


Expanding the Syracusan navy, fortifying strategic locations, and igniting revolt in the subdued Hellenic cities will help turn the tide against the Punics once and for all.

Rebuilding the levelled city of Himera would be a symbolic victory over the Carthaginians, who slaughtered its entire Greek population over a hundred years earlier.

himera.png


If enough of the island is reconquered, the Punics may be persuaded to at last cut their losses and cede the rest for a fair sum.

Hegemon of Magna Graecia
With the throne of Sicily secure, the natural avenue of expansion is southern Italy across Charybdis’ strait. The squabbling Italiote cities cry out for aid against their growing Italic neighbours, and Syracuse has many opportunities in the region.

syracuse3.png


This tree will be available after completing either of the above, and will provide alternative methods for bringing the Italiote cities under your influence as well as a few other boons as a reward for becoming the leading Greek power in Magna Graecia.

Italiote feudatories seeking protection from the Italic tribes may be acquired diplomatically, the powerful Greek states to the east may support you as a bulwark of Hellenic civilisation, and the benefits of the historic cities of Kroton and Taras can be reaped in exchange for investment.

seleukidsupport.png


Next we'll take a look at a tree of an entirely different kind.

Death to Tyrants
Sicily is known for its cruel tyrants; ambitious men who seized power of their cities and introduced delights such as the Brazen Bull of Phalaris. This tree will allow you to overthrow the illegitimate monarchy of Syracuse and restore the old republic, though you will need some help.

syracuse4.png

After selecting a suitable leader, republican revolutionaries will be able to choose between starting a civil war or attempting a coup, both of which will result in a republic being established if successful.

To Arms will start a civil war, but help must be secured from another country; either a Greek republic (attempting to recreate Timoleon's expedition) or a foreign power nearby such as Carthage (though they will want something in return).

toarms.png


Damokles' Lesson will attempt a coup after securing the support of the tyrant's heir or their mercenaries, the latter of which will demand payment if successful.

None of these potential plots are guaranteed to succeed, and there a number of ways for your best laid plans to go wrong even after the tyrant has been removed.

If you do manage to succeed, Syracusae will become a republic once more, restoring Timoleon's laws and undoing the wrongs of Agathokles. If not, this tree can be repeated, though you will have to wait 20 years between attempts.

-EDIT-

Arheo here, and I believe I promised some info on the retake of the holdings mechanic!

Holdings

With the advent of Archimedes, I took the opportunity to enhance the holdings system a little. Due to the sheer amount of territories, subdividing each territory N times by creating multiple holdings therein, was difficult to display - as well as make them matter to a player.

Now, there will only be one ‘holding’ per territory. This holding, rather than a physical structure, represents the controlling stake in the industry of a territory. This also gives us the opportunity to represent the Holding owner with a portrait, giving the mechanic a little more character:

DluJZ7Nkgk7Fm47W9jt7kz6aN453rXUpjTSqa6xZl9h4Lcn43Cl8PU3XPXfk5p1rAt2o6MSw1VBUBDF_2aLCDZd5M0zR9RxbLmwWk5xE8mACjt-5OKZniIHSTYqP1j5YpomF0w_D



Holdings will still grant the owner Powerbase and income, with the income relative to the output of the territory in which the holding is present.

Holdings will predominantly be purchased and owned by Heads of Family, and they’ll continue to squabble and scheme over them, with even more ferocity than before. Holdings can in fact only be granted to heads of family, although in some cases, they can end up being owned by other characters. We’ve also abolished a holding limit: the only thing stopping characters owning more holdings, is wealth.

Holdings now have their own map-mode, so you can easily see the distribution of power in your nation, as well as foreign nations:

9e-zgX7zLTpBE9xNxUKt5qrdvhotpKdZRjFi7f9BrHEA_No36pcQ-Ib5ANBvNeVmImqRwSoX4iZEYbogT-anGjqcBmn7S2qbhORLf6cM0Q0tX6e_rFnK_vXNT-g2J85kXbz2i73X



Overall, this leads to some interesting power dynamics that occur with the death of heads-of-family, as all holdings immediately transfer to the next in line, putting an awful lot of power suddenly in the hands of a potentially disloyal character. In addition, the rise and fall of families can lead to some interesting holding-related power mechanics, as fallen families will eventually shed holdings, as the ex-HoF passes away.

Nb: Characters who join a civil war will try to bring along territories in which they have a controlling stake. This can lead to some... fun situations.

That's all for this DD; see you next week for more.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Tue_p3

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I m still missing the point of why I would want to give people holdings. I thought it was a positive thing to keep the powerbase and wealth of the families low, since it would mean more power to the state. Can someone explain me how I'm supposed to use the holdings mechanic?
 

Bovrick

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I m still missing the point of why I would want to give people holdings. I thought it was a positive thing to keep the powerbase and wealth of the families low, since it would mean more power to the state. Can someone explain me how I'm supposed to use the holdings mechanic?

There might be changes now following the loyalty and holdings updates, but previously:

Short Term Loyalty at the cost of Long Term Powerbase
Rebalancing the total powerbase towards loyal characters, reducing the relative power of disloyal characters, at least when you're in a pinch
Locking in slaves, though this one is a bit gamey rather than feeling intentional.
 

Arheo

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I m still missing the point of why I would want to give people holdings. I thought it was a positive thing to keep the powerbase and wealth of the families low, since it would mean more power to the state. Can someone explain me how I'm supposed to use the holdings mechanic?

Granting holdings is not something you will be doing on a regular basis, any more. While you can still do it, there will be a cost which, over time, will render it difficult to justify. You are more likely to be managing the fallout between powerful holding owners.
 

starchitect

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I m still missing the point of why I would want to give people holdings. I thought it was a positive thing to keep the powerbase and wealth of the families low, since it would mean more power to the state. Can someone explain me how I'm supposed to use the holdings mechanic?

Generally, characters acquire holdings on their own from their own wealth, without your intervention at all. You have the option to grant holdings for a loyalty boost. Also, owned holdings have a negligible commerce boost to the province right now, so in theory, granting out all holdings will increase your income. Its a small effect however so I dont really see that as an incentive.

Personally I like that characters acquire holdings on their own, and I wish it happened much faster. Granting holdings myself is tedious, so even if it was worth it I wouldnt want to do it often. I am hoping that putting the majority of holdings in the hands of a family head will boost their income enough that they can buy up holdings faster. Ideally, I would hope that nearly every holding is owned by characters, and the only time you have an option to hand them out manually is for a few years right after conquering new land, before your characters have had a chance to buy them up on their own.

I wonder if this new mechanic can work with the integrate families event you get when you annex another country. If you choose to keep the family around, it would be neat if they retained their holdings, perhaps in return for unrest reduction in the provinces they kept.
 

Will Steel

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Wouldn't removing the stat limit for number of estates lead to a snowball effect, where characters get estates, earn money from them and immediately buy more estates...infinitely? With a few rich characters taking all the estates? With some endgame characters owning entire nations' worth of estates?

Do heads of families share some money and estates around with other characters in their families?

That said, nice missions. :)
 

Bovrick

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Wouldn't removing the stat limit for number of estates lead to a snowball effect, where characters get estates, earn money from them and immediately buy more estates...infinitely? With a few rich characters taking all the estates? With some endgame characters owning entire nations' worth of estates?

Do heads of families share some money and estates around with other characters in their families?
Sounds familiar...
 

Axis89

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Nice!

But I would like to see actual holdings with portraits in the holdings map mode, in the actual province.
I want to see, at a glance, where they are, and who they are.

Maybe even a tiny Villa Estate graphic in normal map, representing that there is a holding/s owner there.
(Could be a fancy Villa with some garden or wine ranks right outside if it is not in a city)
 

tsf4

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I am glad to see new content, but would like some more love for smaller nations, maybe more general missions?

Don;t be like EU4 where every big nation has lots of flavor but you don't have access to it unless you play only that nation :)
 

MohawkWolfo98

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Granting holdings is not something you will be doing on a regular basis, any more. While you can still do it, there will be a cost which, over time, will render it difficult to justify. You are more likely to be managing the fallout between powerful holding owners.
Sorry, what do you mean by the last sentence? Is there a new Mechanic that I am not aware of? :)
 

Bovrick

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If only the game had proper plutocratic republics...you could simulate a dystopia.

Beautiful.

But back to the runaway issue, I guess we could see a potential cycle where a family becomes noticeably more wealthy and enters the cycle of wealth; this in turn would give a solid powerbase that hampers their loyalty and encourages civil war; whereupon they either win and take control, or lose and have their powerbase fractured. A lovely boom-bust cycle would be really welcome for me. It seemed like it was supposed to go that way even from the base game, hopefully these changes do encourage it to happen more!
 

DukeLeto42

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In the few cases I've faced a civil war, the territory the enemy got felt a little random. Am I correct in thinking the new holding system will make these conflicts more predictable (at least from a perspective of which territories might flip initially)?
 

Arheo

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Firing off some followup questions about holdings to @Arheo :



Does a settlement still need 10 slaves in order to open a holding-slot?

What does this mean for the holdings mechanics interaction with slave ratio? will the presence of an owned holding still serve to guarantee that 10 slaves remain in place and doesn't promote?
presumably not for further increments of 10 slaves though?

In 1.3 we can use holdings to safeguard production surplus of certain goods, even when going over the population capacity a bit. Although the UI makes it hard to do this in any seamless systematic way, this is currently a significant tool in configuring production/trade/economy, particularly in tribal lands that have 50% lower slave ratio and often quite low pop capacity.

Will there be any interaction between local holding-presence and slave ratio/production in 1.4?



So holdings simultaneously require wealth and produce it? interesting! Can a character lose control of some of their holdings as a result of demished personal wealth or is wealth merely a restriction on how /when they can claim or be granted new holdings?

1) No.

2) There is no relation between holdings and slaves aside from the profit accrued from the holding, any more.

3) Yes, this raises a good point. Having read this, I'm looking at adding a 'Prevent Slave Manumission' checkbox to territories, stopping slaves from promoting upwards.

4) Answered in 2)


Do you get the money when they purchase it? I suppose not. I guess the gameplay loop here is that you might need to revoke if a troublesome family grow too powerful or to grant holdings (can you still do it for free?) to weaker families for them to keep up?

1) No, the state does not inherently own all property within, so I see no reason for money to pass that way.

2) That is the intention. I don't want holdings to become a super-invasive mechanic, and there will be several ways to divest a family of holdings.

3) It will likely not be free, though I haven't decided exactly how the cost will be tallied yet.

Wouldn't removing the stat limit for number of estates lead to a snowball effect, where characters get estates, earn money from them and immediately buy more estates...infinitely? With a few rich characters taking all the estates? With some endgame characters owning entire nations' worth of estates?

Do heads of families share some money and estates around with other characters in their families?

That said, nice missions. :)

I really hope so. It's been quite hard to get the game to organically produce characters with the reach of Crassus, for example. The major upside is that as you grow, so too will the revolt-power of your families. The overall split powerbase will not change massively, and will only matter to a large degree if there is a power imbalance, yet when you suspect that a character might spur on a civil war, the fact that they a controlling stake in 80+ territories may give you pause for thought.

There can be some situations in which estates do not belong to a head of family, but they will tend towards HoF as a rule. Sharing money isn't implicitly a thing, but possibly something to look at in the future.

Finally: As the mapmode screenshot suggests, characters are heavily weighted towards buying holdings in a contiguous fashion. It's not strictly necessary, but it's a lot easier to understand, and results in prettier revolts.
 

Denkt

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15.763
6.368
3) Yes, this raises a good point. Having read this, I'm looking at adding a 'Prevent Slave Manumission' checkbox to territories, stopping slaves from promoting upwards.
What will stop someone from using this to build super specialized tax cities with 100% slave ratio and tax offices?