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Imperator Dev Diary, 2/24/2020

Welcome back for this week’s Imperator dev diary.


Today, I’m going to be talking a little bit about the three mysterious boxes that a few of you picked up on when we took a look at the new Religion View wireframe the other week.

f5JiO9ZDb7bW3vsu9OzdMFDzifmvryCnFkz2pJK72pv-nafZJYTfT2DqNzkSx8OWIH4qR_AEPKzY9yhh4ldkIm2nyOp6E1MdDhGpBWcSc9_oTCbAFPdWIzmMbgrxbcOPPdLK4TgB



Linked strongly to Holy Sites, the Sacred Treasures system will be included as part of the Archimedes update. We will be including a set of general treasures for all owners of I:R, and a set of treasures as part of the Content Pack, with a Greek theme, as per the rest of the pack.

Sacred treasures will appear in holy sites around the world, and are intended to represent famous or important artefacts that were known or presumed to have been revered in the ancient world.

It’s important to note here, I think, what treasures are not. Just as with the deities and omens, we’re keen to stress the importance of belief and ritual in antiquity, rather than treating these items as ‘magical’ in nature. The vast quantity of carved/written requests for blessings or even curses that are still found by archaeologists at temples and holy places dating to antiquity, shows that religion was a hugely relevant, almost transactional, part of life.


How will they work?

Every holy site will have a number of slots for sacred treasures, represented as above in the religion view. This corresponds to the ‘level’ of the holy site, which in turn corresponds to the city status of the territory in question. A settlement will be able to sport one artefact, two in a city, and up to three in a metropolis.

I’m keen that treasures are considered unique. Treasures will be created at the beginning of the game, and there will be a finite number. Where the Pythia in Delphi might begin with a brazier of Oleander, you will not find 45 Braziers of Oleander doing the rounds 100 years into the game.

Treasures themselves will exert a provincial effect, applying a modifier to all territories within the province in which they reside. This makes it very relevant where your holy sites are located, and which city status they possess.

Naturally, putting all your eggs in one basket can have a down side. Treasures are fair game for looting, and the desecration of a holy site by a unit will pass all contained treasures to the looting nation.

Treasures can only be actively placed in holy sites which represent gods currently worshiped in your pantheon, and treasures present in holy sites of other deities will have no effect. To add a level of commitment to your choices, you will be unable to remove a treasure unless the holy site is desecrated (possible through the Religion View screen).


Can’t we just stack these to crazy levels?

To an extent. We’re addressing this in a couple of ways. Firstly, the various pop output bonuses for Capital, Capital Province and Capital Region are being cut down significantly. Secondly, by tying treasure slots to city status, you would need to have 4 metropolises in one province in order to stack the maximum number of treasure slots. This makes it theoretically possible, but a significant logistical challenge to feed and supply a fully decked out province.


Can we mod these?

You most certainly can. Time allowing, I will also be looking into allowing characters to benefit from possessing treasures, replete with character effects. Nota bene: I have no current plans to enable the character aspect of the sacred treasures system in the base game.

Next week, we’ll be showing off some more missions that will be coming as part of the Magna Graecia content pack, as well as an interaction with the deity mechanics that I hinted at a few diaries ago.


/Arheo
 

Denkt

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I don't see anything interesting with that. It is basically a simplification of ancient politics.

If you want interesting stuff, make it interesting, not binary on off switches. Like now they all love or hate me.
 

EricMN93

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I don't see anything interesting with that. It is basically a simplification of ancient politics.

If you want interesting stuff, make it interesting, not binary on off switches. Like now they all love or hate me.

ok, let's put different situations in the game

Imagine that we play like Rome and we have conquered all Italy and Magna Graecia

Situation 1: I want to expand towards Gaul but I have many problems with the unhappiness of the pops of the Celtic religion. I decide to hit the table and desecrate a sacred Druidic temple, this brings me money and helps me expand my religion.

Things that can happen: a) the tribes of Gaul and Germany continue to fight among themselves and I have managed to improve my economy and my religion. b) the tribes get angry and declare me revenge. Many allied tribes try to conquer me, this creates a challenging game that can end in game over. The best thing is that there is a realistic reason for revenge.

Situation 2: I go to mine without desecrating anything. The Germanic tribes decide to make the casus belli of great plunder and try to desecrate my temples. This forces me to think very well where to place my forts and my troops. imagine that they manage to desecrate my sacred temple, I will not use the casus belli of revenge to obtain little territory in exchange for 40 aggressive expansive. I simply try to conquer them as always. This creates a situation in which the player has the feeling of living in a constant guerrilla war, something that really happened and forces us to be good strategists.

Situation 3: Imagine that instead of the Germanic tribes attacking me it was Carthage who desecrates my temples.

Now if I decide to use the casus belli of revenge and conquer Carthage in a single war.
 

Denkt

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Situation 1: I want to expand towards Gaul but I have many problems with the unhappiness of the pops of the Celtic religion. I decide to hit the table and desecrate a sacred Druidic temple, this brings me money and helps me expand my religion.
Currently use Culture conversion, will maybe be different in 1.5 but current religion is not that important for happiness.

Situation 2: I go to mine without desecrating anything. The Germanic tribes decide to make the casus belli of great plunder and try to desecrate my temples. This forces me to think very well where to place my forts and my troops. imagine that they manage to desecrate my sacred temple, I will not use the casus belli of revenge to obtain little territory in exchange for 40 aggressive expansive. I simply try to conquer them as always. This creates a situation in which the player has the feeling of living in a constant guerrilla war, something that really happened and forces us to be good strategists.
Why not simply put an army on the temple and a big fort and you are basically safe.
 

EricMN93

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And what about annex a country no matter the size of that country? Anyone may annex the Seleucid Kingdom and Maurya in one war.

Only if that country has desecrated your sacred temple. With this idea we try to simulate Alexander's campaigns. Something that is totally impossible now. Besides, conquering the entire Seleucid empire, obtaining 100 from warscore is not an easy task. Then we would have to manage internal disturbances and problems. Something very difficult.
 

Quimera

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ok, let's put different situations in the game

Imagine that we play like Rome and we have conquered all Italy and Magna Graecia
I want to expand towards Gaul but I have many problems with the unhappiness of the pops of the Celtic religion. I decide to hit the table and desecrate a sacred Druidic temple, this brings me money and helps me expand my religion.
Many allied tribes try to conquer me, this creates a challenging game that can end in game over. The best thing is that there is a realistic reason for revenge.

This forces me to think very well where to place my forts and my troops. imagine that they manage to desecrate my sacred temple, I will not use the casus belli of revenge to obtain little territory in exchange for 40 aggressive expansive. I simply try to conquer them as always. This creates a situation in which the player has the feeling of living in a constant guerrilla war, something that really happened and forces us to be good strategists.

Situation 3: Imagine that instead of the Germanic tribes attacking me it was Carthage who desecrates my temples.

Now if I decide to use the casus belli of revenge and conquer Carthage in a single war.

if that is what you want there are should be more ways to do that besides desecrate temples, uncivilized people weren't such a centralized religion for declaring one war and annex one big nation like Rome
 

Denkt

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Only if that country has desecrated your sacred temple. With this idea we try to simulate Alexander's campaigns. Something that is totally impossible now. Besides, conquering the entire Seleucid empire, obtaining 100 from warscore is not an easy task. Then we would have to manage internal disturbances and problems. Something very difficult.
Everyone should be able to annex anyone if they occupy the whole country, the warscore mechanic is just pure fantasy and if someone could completel Control someone else they could as well annex them whole. Don't mean it should be cheap or without trouble but atleast it is less ridiculous than the attacker leaving with a few provinces after occupying a whole enemy and it cause alot of problems such as having to fight many wars against inferior opponent who you defeat time and time again without being able to annex them because of warscore.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...d-be-able-to-annex-it-no-matter-what.1307141/
 
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Quimera

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Only if that country has desecrated your sacred temple. With this idea we try to simulate Alexander's campaigns. Something that is totally impossible now. Besides, conquering the entire Seleucid empire, obtaining 100 from warscore is not an easy task. Then we would have to manage internal disturbances and problems. Something very difficult.

then give to the greeks states and the Diaochi the casus bellis to annex or share the territory of their rivals with their allies if that is your intention, for me, the warscore is very low in this game and we need so many wars to full annex the big countries but desecrate a temple couldn't fix that.
 

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In ancient times there were very different wars.

Some would like to recreate Alexander's battles, others would prefer to recreate the Roman wars, others would enjoy playing as a thalasocracy, others want to see barbarian invasions, etc ...

It takes different casus belli to recreate different games and I believe that this treasure and the new religious system can help to have casus belli different from the conquest.

My ideas are perfect? Obviously not, there are many things to polish and many inconsistencies, I am aware. I simply try to use the new systems that will be introduced to recreate different game styles.

I don't want crusades in Imperator but there should be some casus belli related to religion
 

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If you have 100 warscore it mean you have fully occupied the country or something like that, basically you have totally defeated them and thus should be able to annex them no matter what. This would make stuff alot nicer for people who are tired to having to fight useless wars with certain outcome over and over again to annex the big countries.

Big countries probably have to much resources, especially players which mean it is quite easy to do Alexander style conquests but that can be changed.

How it currently work is that it is easy to conquer tribal areas quickly because you can separate Peace every nation in those areas while the big nations are very time consuming to conquer.
 
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Dear Devs, will there be trasure-related character scemes?

What about allegedly mythical objects? For exaple feathers said to be from Minerva's owl or Zeus' Eagle?

7. Cool idea, maybe. I'm reluctant to use the treasures in a way that might result in multiples, though.
You could make the trophies unique by making each one for the game's year. Please also fix the wrong olympic years.
 

Ololorium

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Have you consider how this affect research since having good research ratio require doing some pretty crazy stuff to maximize the bonuses from the capital but with the change how will research now be. On other hand certain religious stuff may boost it but on the other hand that require maybe even more crazy stuff than is seen right now.

I could maybe see Citizens research production be boosted a bit, seeing the diadochi and other large empires with absolute pathetic technology levels don't make all too much sense.

Maybe the research efficiency should be calculated by some formula using both the percentage of Citizens and their number? So to get 100% efficiency you can have either a significant share of your pops to be citizens (which small states can do) OR have tens (maybe about a hundred) citizen pops (which large states can do).
 

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Maybe the research efficiency should be calculated by some formula using both the percentage of Citizens and their number? So to get 100% efficiency you can have either a significant share of your pops to be citizens (which small states can do) OR have tens (maybe about a hundred) citizen pops (which large states can do).
Why not keep research as it is? It is basically the only tradeoff mechanic that exist for conquering Everything on sight right now and maybe one of the only reasons to use subjects instead of taking the land yourself.

On other hand it mean we see primitive diadochi and Rome so thats something.

I think this is qute telling how bad some stuff is with the game if one of the only interesting choice mechanics create something such ridiculous.

As I have said I neither like nor dislike the game, simply trying to say how it currently is. The game currently feels very lacking in choices because in the wast majority of cases it is 1 obvious choice like Culture convert Everything and so.

Here for example you can see an idea how cities can be made more interesting: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...more-stuff-with-settlements-and-such.1339632/

Current Imperator: Rome can probably not be considered to really be a strategy game since a strategy game is about choices and I don't think Imperator: Rome fufill that criteria well enough.

Maybe the research efficiency should be calculated by some formula using both the percentage of Citizens and their number? So to get 100% efficiency you can have either a significant share of your pops to be citizens (which small states can do) OR have tens (maybe about a hundred) citizen pops (which large states can do).
So going back, it is easy to have good intentions but it is also easy to make stuff worse than better so we should be quite careful.
 
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toxicgrunt

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Seems like an interesting idea, hopefully none of the religion's deity relics are so OP you create an ideal religion to play as if you want to be competitive. I can see how Germanic relics might mostly be war focused for that meta, and the Egyptian or Mauryan ones giving wrong culture happiness.

Also another week of silence on the trade restriction mechanic they bunged up :(
 

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Seems like an interesting idea, hopefully none of the religion's deity relics are so OP you create an ideal religion to play as if you want to be competitive. I can see how Germanic relics might mostly be war focused for that meta, and the Egyptian or Mauryan ones giving wrong culture happiness.
Last time they said there was 4 deities categories so focus on a specific subject may not make completely sense. The thing the game really need is actual choices, in that way the religion stuff look like a significant improvement.

As I said above, currently it is basically impossible to call Imperator: Rome for a strategy game because a strategy game need relevant choices, something Imperator: Rome is lacking in.
 
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Rubidium

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You could make the trophies unique by making each one for the game's year. Please also fix the wrong olympic years.
That's still going to be a ton of wreaths, especially late game. ~300 years of game-time with an Olympics every ~4 years works out to ~75 Olympic victory trophies. And they will all be concentrated among the various Hellenistic states (many of whom are OPMs and thus easy targets for conquest), meaning you'll have an even bigger disparity in that region.

If they want treasures to be rare, unique and special, that seems problematic.

Better to have there be rare and different treasures, rather than building a Temple of Ares and filling it with laurel wreathes (even differently named ones) because they are so plentiful.
 

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1. The intended way to acquire these is either by desecrating the temple, or annexing the temple for yourself.
2. At least some of them. Others may be 'lost' - ie; distributed amongst nearby countries.
3. Some sneaky people have found ways to acquire more ;)
4. Religious unity remains unaffected by the deity system.
5. Not at this time.
6. No.
7. Cool idea, maybe. I'm reluctant to use the treasures in a way that might result in multiples, though.
8. I was not aware of these; would be cool to add something for this in future.
The motivation behind the questions regarding casus belli is due to that... right now we treat land as the main prize for wars. But holy relics would, in my opinion, be something even more important to the land. So without actually having to spend something but simply in an act of desecration (an act without requiring spending something and has no prerequisites, and probably not that much of a punishment), it feels these relics were cheap "side prizes". Giving a war-score requirement to acquire Relics would mean that smaller countries holding onto a relic could use it to leverage a bit of survival (because you need to have enough war score to take the relic, and you can't take both the relic and the land).
 

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6.368
right now we treat land as the main prize for wars.
Because the Peace treaty system is extreamly lacking in option so you don't even get much choice to take to begin with. Atleast you can wage wars just to take slaves which is maybe a better idea than taking land in many situations as you don't get AE to begin with.