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HoI4 Dev Diary - The Imperial Japanese Navy (AAR)

Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary from the frozen wasteland that is Sweden in January. Today, we will have another short AAR of a naval warfare scenario, similar to the one we did earlier about raiding and submarine warfare.


This was played as an MP game between me and Niall (@Ceebie), with me defending the Empire of Japan’s honor against Niall’s filthy American imperialists.


Starting as Japan, I immediately face a number of issues that should sound very familiar: I have very limited resources, particularly in terms of oil. This is now a much bigger issue as I can still happily build ships and airplanes and tanks, but I won’t be able to run them for free. However, if I want to upgrade my ships (and knowing Niall, I absolutely do), I will need naval experience, and China is unlikely to provide me with a lot of it. So I need to run training missions for my fleet, which gobbles up fuel at a rapid pace (I could only take out my main fleet units for a few brief weeks before the fuel situation became critical).


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At the same time, while I could trade for more oil, it will cost civilian factories which I desperately need to build up my own industry or to trade for steel to continue my military buildup. I decided to keep the trading for oil to a minimum in order to more quickly build up my industry and increase the size of my fleet.


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My first target is, of course, China, and we start the war with them in the middle of 1937. It quickly becomes apparent that I underestimate the Chinese. Fighting rages hard along the border for several weeks, and a number of naval landings that attempt to force the AI to draw troops away from the main front are quickly contained by local garrisons, but at least not pushed back into the sea. Part of the problem is that the fleets tasked with invasion support contain some of my battleships, which eat up absurd amounts of fuel, and my attempts to turn the tide through prolific use of air support eat into my fuel supplies even more.


By early 1938, we are slowly grinding forward and have managed to inflict serious casualties on the Chinese, but my fuel stockpile has shrunken to just 30 days of current use. I curtail air support to only support my main thrust and send the naval forces providing shore bombardment back to port. Progress slows, but eventually we link up with the landing forces, at least saving me from an embarrassing early defeat. The massive amounts of Land XP also allow me to run through the doctrine tree quite a bit faster than Niall could ever hope to. Sadly the war in the Pacific will not be fought on land.


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It would take until early 1941 for the Chinese to fall, even though the writing is on the wall by the middle of 1940. I blame the poor infrastructure and awful terrain in China - my leadership is, after all, beyond any reasonable doubt.


In the meantime, Niall has been quietly modernizing his fleet and has started his rearmament. While a good amount of his effort is spent on helping out the British in Europe, I have no doubt that he has something in store for me. While I was deeply engaged in managing the war in China, I received some out-of-game intelligence (Niall bragging in the kitchen that his destroyer swarms would annihilate me) that makes me realize that my fleet lacks some key capabilities. The starting Japanese light cruisers are fairly mediocre, most have been built during the 20ies and are not up to the task of winning a firefight against the likes of a Brooklyn Class cruiser with no less than 3 light cruiser battery modules. What I do have is a lot of torpedoes, and I invest a little into researching upgraded torpedoes and better launchers. The Japanese Long Lance national spirit gives me another perk, as it negates the enemy screening to an extend, which means that my torpedoes can hit his capitals even through 100% screening.


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So while I was slowly grinding my way across China, I also decided on my buildup strategy:


  • No new battleships, since they eat up a lot of fuel and I have enough to cover my carriers. However, I did later decide to build at least one Yamato-class as an insurance against Niall developing modern battleships.

  • A force of 4 light carriers. Japan starts with two (Ryujo and returning fan favourite Hosho), with two Zuhio class building. While these only carry 40 planes each, they will be used to provide cover for operations in and around the Dutch East Indies.

  • A force of 4 fleet carriers, with another force of 4 joining later. Akagi and Kaga will be joined by 2 more Soryu class carriers and form the main strike force in the Central Pacific.

  • A heavy emphasis on air defense and torpedoes. After researching dual purpose main armaments, I design a new destroyer class with improved AA and better torpedo armament. These are joined by a quartet of light torpedo cruisers from the Japanese focus.

  • Lots and lots of Naval Bombers to damage the enemy during the approach and pick off stragglers. Once the battle is fought, his damaged ships would likely try and find a close naval base for repairs, so having naval bombers ready to attack them in port would let me finish them off.

  • Once I identified the fleet’s weakness in defense against destroyers, I also designed a version of the Mogami Class heavy cruisers dedicated to light gun support. I built another 4 of these.

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The fleet’s main objective, however, is to provide support for landings to seize resource rich areas in the Dutch East Indies. To protect the sea lanes to and from these islands, I will need to secure the Philippines, and that is where things get a little dicey.


While I have little doubt that my forces can take over Sumatra, Java and Borneo, Malaya might be a tough nut to crack, and I know that Niall has already started to fortify the Philippines. I have researched amphibious armor well in advance and with China now pacified, I start to turn up production in an attempt to give my marines a bit more punch and hopefully allow me to seize a foothold even against heavy opposition.

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Thinking ahead, I also research improved naval bombers and the next generation of carrier planes. Once my main objectives are secured, I will use swarms of naval bombers to hold them down while I move my fleets to stage two and take on Australia.


To give myself some more time to buildup, I delay my attack on the US until early 1942. This allows me to form a second strike force of two fleet carriers (Shokaku and Zuikaku, both repeat Soryus as I was unable to scrape together enough XP to design an upgraded carrier).


The first battles are very encouraging. Whenever my patrols find one of his scouting units, my strike fleets sortie and make short work of them, Niall’s vaunted Destroyer swarms being no match for my upgraded cruisers and destroyers. I am somewhat confident that I can attrit his screening forces faster than he can replace them, which would eventually force his fleet to remain in port or eat absurd numbers of torpedoes.

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Things quickly turn a little chaotic as my strike fleets and patrols intercept a number of troop convoys. While I first thought that these were going to the Philippines, they instead turn out to be trying to seize islands in the Central Pacific. Things don’t go well for him, as he has decided to keep his battleships and carriers on strike duty instead of covering his invasion convoys. Several divisions are effectively destroyed at sea, and the remains fail to gain any footholds.


At the same time, my invasions in the DEI, supported by the old battleships Ise and Hyuga, have run into stiff opposition while attempting to land in Borneo. I shift some tactical bombers into the theater to help break the stalemate, and we are starting to make progress. The two-pronged assault succeeds in establishing a foothold, but it is a reminder that Niall has not been idle and is ready to fight for every inch of ground in this vital area.

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While my marines still struggle to make landfall in the Philippines, a bigger drama unfolds in the Bismarck Sea. Niall has finally unleashed his main strike force, after one of his patrols found my carrier fleet.


The Battle of the Bismarck Sea does not go particularly well for the Imperial Navy. With several battleships detached for minor repairs, the US Navy breaks through my screening units and manages to do an end run on my carriers, sinking all four for no capital ship loses on their side. The survivors straggle home, many ships badly damaged during the ferocious engagement as my battle line attempted to screen against the full might of the US battlefleet.

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However, Niall’s victory has come at a steep cost. Most of his battlefleet is badly damaged, and he has nothing to follow his success up with. More than that, I still have 6 carriers in reserve (2 fleet, 4 light), and several hundred naval bombers scouring the Bismarck Sea means that he has to risk his battleships again to sail them to safer harbours for repairs. Several of them take further damage as they retreat, many of them out of the battle for almost a year.

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While Niall has blunted my offensive power quite severely, he has nothing to interfere with in my operations in the DEI, which were the main objective. Trying to use the Philippines as an unsinkable aircraft carrier has become next to impossible as trying to supply it with fuel would cost him too many convoys and tank his war support. The Japanese conquest of the southern resource area won’t quite be the lightning strike it was in history, but it is as inevitable as the rising of the sun.

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With hindsight, my performance in the naval war thus far comes down to:

  • Lack of radar allowing Niall to get the drop on me in a critical moment

  • Lack of training due to fuel concerns

  • Insufficient coverage of the seazones with naval bombers failing to disrupt the enemy on the approach

  • Not enough screening vessels to protect my carriers against his battle fleet. Although Yamato sunk several ships and survived to fight another day, spending the same amount of 3 heavy cruisers would likely have yielded better results

  • Good performance of my light forces when engaged on equal terms

That is all for today. Tune in at 1600 CET for another stream with an indepth look at fuel.
 
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This sounds really interesting. Naval combat becomes far more in depth and exciting. The fuel mechanism will certainly alter the way we play the game. Keep up the good work and don't listen to the people who urge you to release early. Better release when ready than early.
 
@Novacat: back at ya, got sources? It also looks like you are making my points for me. Battleships cost more than the equivalent frigates, destroyers or cruisers. I used 1991 figures because that is when the last BBs were retired and the cost justification was a missile cruiser was less than half the cost of a BB. I did source my material, did you look at the link I posted and any research on the Missouri and Wisconsin will turn up their last hurrah around Kuwait.
 
@Novacat: back at ya, got sources? It also looks like you are making my points for me. Battleships cost more than the equivalent frigates, destroyers or cruisers. I used 1991 figures because that is when the last BBs were retired and the cost justification was a missile cruiser was less than half the cost of a BB. I did source my material, did you look at the link I posted and any research on the Missouri and Wisconsin will turn up their last hurrah around Kuwait.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship#Budget_overruns_and_deployments

"A GAO report in July 2014 found that the annual cost to operate an LCS was $79 million, compared to $54 million to operate a larger frigate. Navy Secretary Ray Mabus pointed out that new vessels traditionally start off costing more to operate due to difficulties with ships being built and tested simultaneously; GAO reports of new warships since the 1960s support this claim. As more littoral combat ships are built and enter service, Mabus said operational costs will decline to acceptable limits.[108] On 2 November 2016 the Pentagon blocked publication of cost overruns on both designs."
 
Really? https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/01/04/Navy-wants-to-mothball-USS-Iowa-New-Jersey/5553631429200/

This link shows the USN differs with your opinion. Annual cost in 1991 of one battleship was 34 million and when the New Jersey was used in the lebanese civil war of 1983, the USN said it was of little value. A modern missile cruiser armed with tomahawk missiles and UAV(unmanned Air Vehicles) , drones costs 15 million a year or half of a battleship and just as effective. Battleships do not give you the biggest bang for your buck IRL; it seems they are an exception in HOI IV.

Also research USS Missouri and USS Wisconsin for their final glory in the Gulf War of 1991. Soon thereafter, the USN mothballed them again and turned them into the museum pieces they really are.
Modern ships are far more expensive than that and they never gave enough effort into battleship research to find the right way to make efficient and modern battleships.

EDIT: the feller above has the good sources.
 
Didn't they examine a bunch of ways to modernize the Iowa class, and decided that they were all too expensive?
The two conclusions I can draw from that is either they didn’t put enough effort into it or they just needed to start a new battleship that is more efficient.
 
Nah theyre just lazy and its wayy cheaper to space out dlc like this and makes them way more money (all they care about). If you havent noticed for all their games their recent dlcs are all negative for a reason. It takes them a year to implement things which were in the previous game? Give me a break indie devs manage to put out more work than these jokers. Modders do more work than both but thats because they have passion unlike pdx
Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if they just decrease the price well enough after a certain period of time.
 
Youve clearly never played hoi3 or gotten past the first year if you cant figure out that theres more to this than just the fuel ripped from release and sold to us for a tidy $19.99

He is right though. The ship designer looks like it is more out of Stellaris than anything else. HOI3 never had a ship designer like that.
 
He is right though. The ship designer looks like it is more out of Stellaris than anything else. HOI3 never had a ship designer like that.
Yeah it definitely takes inspiration from stellaris.
 
Zumwalt got cancelled after the third because of colossal budget overruns. US went back to building arleigh burkes.
 
Zumwalt got cancelled after three got built because of colossal budget overruns.
When people create things it is usually after that they realize how costly it is.
 
On the 'Battleships are/aren't obsolete' debate - while I (respectfully, and acknowledging it's not a cut-and-dried issue by any stretch) disagree with @Farquarsen that they were obsolete in WW2, the advent of reliable anti-ship stand-off weapons, the effectiveness of aircraft carriers and the shift from the main weapon of a warship being a gun to a missile, really did mean the end of the battleship as we know it. Battleships were what they were because when they were developed, and still in a number of circumstances in WW2 (the last BB on BB fight was in October 1944, after all!) the most effective way to reliably stop an enemy vessel was with gunfire from your own vessels. The most effective gunfire was from really big guns, and the most effective defense against that gunfire was wads of armour.

This all changed in the post-war era, and has changed beyond recognition now. Aircraft and long-range surface-to-surface missiles are the most effective strike weapons, and the most effective defenses tend to be electronic countermeasures or CIWS, rather than armour. These weapons don't require a 45,000 ton monster to deploy, and it makes no sense at all for navies to put all their eggs in one basket if they don't have to. Thus, in the modern context, building a battleship, even to carry missiles and most definitely to carry guns, would only make sense if anti-aircraft and anti-missile defense made it such that gunfire became an important ship-to-ship weapon again. This isn't impossible by any stretch, but whether it's probable or not would take a better crystal-ball gazer than I am :).

Nah theyre just lazy and its wayy cheaper to space out dlc like this and makes them way more money (all they care about). If you havent noticed for all their games their recent dlcs are all negative for a reason. It takes them a year to implement things which were in the previous game? Give me a break indie devs manage to put out more work than these jokers. Modders do more work than both but thats because they have passion unlike pdx

I've been playing video games for over thirty years, and following developers for nearly thirty, and there is nothing about Paradox's behaviour that suggests anything other than a serious degree of passion for the game, as well as no small amount of skill. I also doubt that in the vast, vast majority of cases modders do more work (not dissing modders, I am one myself). If you look through some of the earlier dev diaries, you'll see devs replying to questions at around midnight their local time. That's not the behaviour of someone who is lazy or doesn't have passion for the game, plain and simple.

Also - the implementation of the things for MtG are chalk and cheese from what was in HoI3 or HoI2 (or HoI1, while we're at it) - that's a strawman if ever I saw one. I won't be replying to you again, but I'd suggest getting a bit of perspective.
 
Well they are testing railguns and lasers, so maybe some sort of gun platform will make a comeback in the future for the warships of the world.

Very, very unlikely.

They might do ok against a third world country like Somalia, but against any remotely modernized opponent all a battleship would be is very, very, very costly scrap metal.
 
In the stream today @Archangel85 and @Ceebie mentioned that the pearl harbor focus on the us tree went the way of the dodo. they also said a US player would be really pissed if the player lost 9 battleships at the completion of a Japanese focus. Of course that same focus would give the American 100 percent stability and 100 percent war support. So PDX, what is wrong with a little bit of IRL?

Does this mean Japan will get a boost to it's dockyards and steel production to compensate? If they're going to essentially be giving the US a boost to it's fleet, obviously Japan needs compensation as well or the Pacific will be an even bigger joke than it already is.
 
On the 'Battleships are/aren't obsolete' debate - while I (respectfully, and acknowledging it's not a cut-and-dried issue by any stretch) disagree with @Farquarsen that they were obsolete in WW2, the advent of reliable anti-ship stand-off weapons, the effectiveness of aircraft carriers and the shift from the main weapon of a warship being a gun to a missile, really did mean the end of the battleship as we know it. Battleships were what they were because when they were developed, and still in a number of circumstances in WW2 (the last BB on BB fight was in October 1944, after all!) the most effective way to reliably stop an enemy vessel was with gunfire from your own vessels. The most effective gunfire was from really big guns, and the most effective defense against that gunfire was wads of armour.

This all changed in the post-war era, and has changed beyond recognition now. Aircraft and long-range surface-to-surface missiles are the most effective strike weapons, and the most effective defenses tend to be electronic countermeasures or CIWS, rather than armour. These weapons don't require a 45,000 ton monster to deploy, and it makes no sense at all for navies to put all their eggs in one basket if they don't have to. Thus, in the modern context, building a battleship, even to carry missiles and most definitely to carry guns, would only make sense if anti-aircraft and anti-missile defense made it such that gunfire became an important ship-to-ship weapon again. This isn't impossible by any stretch, but whether it's probable or not would take a better crystal-ball gazer than I am :).



I've been playing video games for over thirty years, and following developers for nearly thirty, and there is nothing about Paradox's behaviour that suggests anything other than a serious degree of passion for the game, as well as no small amount of skill. I also doubt that in the vast, vast majority of cases modders do more work (not dissing modders, I am one myself). If you look through some of the earlier dev diaries, you'll see devs replying to questions at around midnight their local time. That's not the behaviour of someone who is lazy or doesn't have passion for the game, plain and simple.

Also - the implementation of the things for MtG are chalk and cheese from what was in HoI3 or HoI2 (or HoI1, while we're at it) - that's a strawman if ever I saw one. I won't be replying to you again, but I'd suggest getting a bit of perspective.
I agree but if thing go a certain direction or something is invented than Battleships could definitely make a comeback.
 
In the stream today @Archangel85 and @Ceebie mentioned that the pearl harbor focus on the us tree went the way of the dodo. they also said a US player would be really pissed if the player lost 9 battleships at the completion of a Japanese focus. Of course that same focus would give the American 100 percent stability and 100 percent war support. So PDX, what is wrong with a little bit of IRL?
I agree there as a historical RTS game without Pearl Harbor is no historical RTS game.