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HoI4 Dev Diary - Tech Changes

Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary for Man the Guns. Today, we will talk about some changes we have made to the tech and research system.

The biggest of which is, of course, the new tech tree for ships and other naval equipment. It is quite extensive, adding over 50 new technologies. Smaller changes and additions have been made to the armor and infantry tech trees through the addition of amphibious armor and to electro-mechanical engineering through the addition of Fire Control Systems.

techtree.jpg


Many of these techs do unlock new modules, but some do not - ammunition techs, fire control methods and damage control training amongst other don’t, and instead provide passive bonuses. This makes them quite valuable as you don’t have to build or refit a ship to make use of them.

tech4.jpg


The industry tree has also been expanded to accommodate fuel refining and storage. As one would expect, the new technologies improve the ratio of oil converted to fuel, giving you more fuel for the same amount of oil. The oil branch of the synthetic refinery tree no longer increases the oil output of each refinery but instead increases the amount of fuel generated by each synthetic refinery (synthetic refineries are not required to generate fuel if you have natural oil production!).

tech8.jpg


Since this adds quite a bit of research to an already pretty full research tree, we have taken some steps to offset this increase.

tech7.jpg


The first is that we have made a 15% increase to research speed across the board. The second is that a lot of the research in the new naval tech tree (as well as all the doctrine research) benefits from the research with XP system that gives you a fairly significant research boost if you have enough XP of that type to spare. For things like fire control methods and damage control training, researching without XP is significantly more time consuming to represent the lower effort spent during peacetime rather than learning from, well, experience.

tech6.jpg


Lastly, we made some changes to how research bonuses are granted and how ahead of time bonuses are handled. Regular research bonuses are no longer reducing research cost but instead boosting research speed. A previous 50% reduction in cost is now a 100% boost in speed. Ahead of time bonuses have been changed to apply a flat reduction in years rather than a reduction to the penalty, so a 1944 tech with two years of reduction would be treated as a 1942 tech for the purpose of calculating research time.

tech3.jpg


That is all for today. Next week, we will take a look at some of the art and music coming in Man the Guns.
 

Pragmatic

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Well if we can do that to airplane it gonna be heavy bomber size full of AA and no bomb it gonna be a flying AA fortress.

I was surprised to learn that AEW (airborne early warning; the radar planes) actually existed in WW2. They did it wrong (they put the radar on the bottom of an Avenger; apparently, putting it on top eliminates some problems with reflection off the sea below you or something), but it existed...
 

Crowarior

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Can someone explain how SHBBs work now? You only have 1 hull (1936 model) and you upgrade it as you research better armament etc? Also, what is the difference between 1936 SHBB hull and 1944 normal BB hull?
 

C-Breeze

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The XP research boost adds a nice touch. I like how it emulates more rapid advancement during time of war. Good innovation.
 

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Just checking ...

Currently (1.5.4)
Land doctrine research time base : 300 days
50% reserch bonus + 50% faction tech sharing bonus = 100% discount
Actual research time: 1 day

Will be (MtG):
Land doctrine research time base : 255 days (15% reduction from 300)
+100% faster research from the research bonus
+100% faster research from the faction sharing bonus
Actual research time: 85 days

8500% research speed nerf .... not bad.
 

DominusNovus

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Engines are unlocked by hull techs. We felt that there wasn't enough to make separate engine techs interesting.

Any chance of bringing back nuclear ships from earlier HoI games? Especially niw that we have fuel.. it would be a fun lategame toy.
 

AOW

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I have been playing HOI since 2002 and this is the least enthusiastic I have ever been for an expansion or update. It looks like if playing a major with a naval interest that the game will essentially be a ship designer/researcher as the main course with small sides of land and air. I would have been very happy if they had just fixed the existing naval combat system without all the added frills and research and such. This will need A LOT of play testing.
"the more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the works." Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott
 

claydulaney

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That is all for today. Next week, we will take a look at some of the art and music coming in Man the Guns.[/QUOTE]


PLEASE, PLEASE do SOMETHING about the time it takes to justify a DOW. In reality, Germany set up and attacked when she was ready. There was a huge propaganda campaign before Poland, but after that Hitler hit when he was ready, and damn the consequences.

It may require different justification times depending on the government type - fascist vs communist need less justification than a democracy. When you are getting ready for the France '40 campaign, it is ludicrous to have to justify against Luxembourg, Belgium, and Holland - especially when each successive one takes months then a year to complete. One hell of a way to launch a surprise attack!!!

Clay aka bnoman
a player since HOI2
 

Dlin369

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That is all for today. Next week, we will take a look at some of the art and music coming in Man the Guns.


PLEASE, PLEASE do SOMETHING about the time it takes to justify a DOW. In reality, Germany set up and attacked when she was ready. There was a huge propaganda campaign before Poland, but after that Hitler hit when he was ready, and damn the consequences.

It may require different justification times depending on the government type - fascist vs communist need less justification than a democracy. When you are getting ready for the France '40 campaign, it is ludicrous to have to justify against Luxembourg, Belgium, and Holland - especially when each successive one takes months then a year to complete. One hell of a way to launch a surprise attack!!!

Clay aka bnoman
a player since HOI2

Once you are at war with a major can justify on countries in a month, plus on top of that Germany gets a 35 day focus giving wargoals on all the Benelux once they are at war
 

seattle

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whats? its like play s.t.a.l.k.e.r. and wish stop the game to look inventory.
you just have the clock time to pick of a mounth if you want make a mod and extend this time, i dont see why you wish to make that thing.

What's the downside of having a queue per slot? Most games have it for obvious usability reasons.
 

Axe99

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Cheers for the DD Archangel, lots to love in that the expanded tech tree :D. Wil be great to see the various navies fleets' have more character now, and to have more choice as a player :). Not sure whether it'd be possible to pick a favourite. We haven't seen them, but I know it's hard to fault a good @Director so here's a pic of a Mk 33 fire-control director on US battleship :cool:.

Mk 33 on Alabama small.jpg


I can see why the devs chose to combine engines and hulls into a combined naval tech. There were no game-changing breakthroughs in naval engine or hull design in the game's era and ships almost never replaced their engines.

1936-1948 actually saw the adoption of high-pressure/temperature steam turbines in many navies (almost all navies started off the period with about 300-400 degree fahrenheit boilers, and ended a good deal higher, and Germany experimented (not entirely successfully) with some very high pressure units), and there was also the widespread introduction of welding in ship construction, as well as a shift from transverse to longitudinal framing - both pretty important steps in the evolution of propulsion and construction, respectively. These steps weren't exclusive to the 1936-48 period, but many key elements took place then. That said, I think they're proxied well enough by the hull techs - I'm just speaking up for the oft-forgotten longitudinal framing and high-pressure turbines :).

Okay, on the one hand, you kind of have a point. Historically, the US fleet and British fleet are so powerful that there is no practical way that the Axis/GEACPS ever wins. The USA in real life fought Japan largely one on one, with one hand tied behind its back, and still had them on a permanent defensive inside of a year or two; Britain alone had a similar effect to Germany, which never had any realistic means to put Operation Sea Lion into effect.

It's not necessarily about them winning at sea - just fighting an asymmetric war effectively enough for long enough so that they can win on the land without interference from Britain and the US. While there were bad decisions made, I haven't seen a compelling case made that Germany's submarine production program (and with subs included, Germany commissioned a greater tonnage of warships than Japan did between 1936 and 1945) was a mistake (far from it - generally speaking it was considered very important to their war effort).

It's also important to remember that up until the Battle of Midway, the Allied navies were stretched to the limit. Prior to the US entry, Britain was struggling against Germany and Italy, and intially after the Japanese/US entry things got worse, with Britain quickly losing two capital ships and having to put together a fleet in the Indian Ocean (which itself narrowly avoided disaster, and was in many ways only possible because the USN transferred ships to help the Home Fleet out). Things went very well for the US at Midway - there's no reason it couldn't have been an 'attritional draw' like Coral Sea before it and Santa Cruz after it - and even with the US victory, the US requested (and got) a British carrier sent to the South Pacific in the second half of 1942 because of their shortage of flat-tops in the theatre.

Throw in counterfactuals and more creative alt-history - should the US have a civil war, then all bets are off.

I was surprised to learn that AEW (airborne early warning; the radar planes) actually existed in WW2. They did it wrong (they put the radar on the bottom of an Avenger; apparently, putting it on top eliminates some problems with reflection off the sea below you or something), but it existed...

The US did some very creative things with their Cadillac I (the TBF with radar) and II (a B-17 with radar) - here's some pics of them, iirc both were operational within the timeframe of HoI4 :).

Cadillac_1.jpg



header_3a.jpg
 

xtfoster

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So...
1. more research options: Great!
2. Ability to research quicker using experience: Good but will experience be gained faster?

but...
3. With many more research options are research slots still limited to 4 to 6 (pending country at play)?

If so that does not seem to be good at all or am I missing something.
2) Yes, because they have said you can now train the Air Force and Navy.
3) They haven't said, so probably no. But they did say there was an across the board 15% research buff.
 

Idle America

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Next week we get to look at art and music. The last two dev diaries haven't had any Rejected Titles. It's getting close... I can feel it!

Also, I might have asked this in another dev diary, but will Eleanor Roosevelt be available as a minister for the USA, like Soong Mei-ling for China? We can't let someone as awesome as her be ignored, after all!
 

Idle America

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It's not necessarily about them winning at sea - just fighting an asymmetric war effectively enough for long enough so that they can win on the land without interference from Britain and the US. While there were bad decisions made, I haven't seen a compelling case made that Germany's submarine production program (and with subs included, Germany commissioned a greater tonnage of warships than Japan did between 1936 and 1945) was a mistake (far from it - generally speaking it was considered very important to their war effort).

Surround UK with submarines. Destroy all fuel convoys. Royal Navy runs out of juice. Britain go squish?
 

Praetori

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Depends on the country. The different tech levels not necessarily represent gun calibers across all countries (so there is no "15 inch guns" tech, just a Heavy Battery I tech) to simulate stuff like rate of fire, number of barrels per turret etc. It would probably be possible to mod the system to work more like that though.
Is it possible with flavor names for said techs and modules? Ie could we mod in flavor names for different nations like with other techs?

No changes to air tech right now, but it will probably be looked at in a future DLC.
So how are seaplane-tenders/floatplane-cruiser planes handled? I know it's just a bonus and that we don't have to produce said aircraft but is there a tech for it and where?
 

Axe99

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Surround UK with submarines. Destroy all fuel convoys. Royal Navy runs out of juice. Britain go squish?

It doesn't even need to be squish :). Historically, subs were much cheaper industrially than the resources required to counter them. Even if the sub campaign 'just' diverts those resources from air and land forces to anti-submarine forces, that's a win for Germany. Note, I have no idea whether this will be possible in MtG, I'm just talking the historical balance of things.
 

BeauNiddle

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Can someone explain how SHBBs work now? You only have 1 hull (1936 model) and you upgrade it as you research better armament etc? Also, what is the difference between 1936 SHBB hull and 1944 normal BB hull?

The difference is 8 years :)

You can only assign 5 naval yards to each capital ship. SHBBs can be coming out of production by 1938 but you wont get the 1944BB ships till 1945 at the earliest.

We'll have to see what the actual stats are once the DLC actually comes out.
 

noobermenschen

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Hello, and welcome back to another Dev Diary for Man the Guns. Today, we will talk about some changes we have made to the tech and research system.

The biggest of which is, of course, the new tech tree for ships and other naval equipment. It is quite extensive, adding over 50 new technologies. Smaller changes and additions have been made to the armor and infantry tech trees through the addition of amphibious armor and to electro-mechanical engineering through the addition of Fire Control Systems.

View attachment 441860

Many of these techs do unlock new modules, but some do not - ammunition techs, fire control methods and damage control training amongst other don’t, and instead provide passive bonuses. This makes them quite valuable as you don’t have to build or refit a ship to make use of them.

View attachment 441859

The industry tree has also been expanded to accommodate fuel refining and storage. As one would expect, the new technologies improve the ratio of oil converted to fuel, giving you more fuel for the same amount of oil. The oil branch of the synthetic refinery tree no longer increases the oil output of each refinery but instead increases the amount of fuel generated by each synthetic refinery (synthetic refineries are not required to generate fuel if you have natural oil production!).

View attachment 441858

Since this adds quite a bit of research to an already pretty full research tree, we have taken some steps to offset this increase.

View attachment 441857

The first is that we have made a 15% increase to research speed across the board. The second is that a lot of the research in the new naval tech tree (as well as all the doctrine research) benefits from the research with XP system that gives you a fairly significant research boost if you have enough XP of that type to spare. For things like fire control methods and damage control training, researching without XP is significantly more time consuming to represent the lower effort spent during peacetime rather than learning from, well, experience.

View attachment 441856

Lastly, we made some changes to how research bonuses are granted and how ahead of time bonuses are handled. Regular research bonuses are no longer reducing research cost but instead boosting research speed. A previous 50% reduction in cost is now a 100% boost in speed. Ahead of time bonuses have been changed to apply a flat reduction in years rather than a reduction to the penalty, so a 1944 tech with two years of reduction would be treated as a 1942 tech for the purpose of calculating research time.

View attachment 441855

That is all for today. Next week, we will take a look at some of the art and music coming in Man the Guns.
Very nice! :)

And art and music? Sounds like we're coming to the end of the DDs! ;)
 
Last edited:

Aeroclub

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So did a country like Soviet Union just get a flat 15% bonus to research?

I mean, they aren't really getting any new techs they need to spend their research on (neither navy nor oil), but they still get that 15% bonus...

Kind of breaking the balance, don't you think?