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HOI4 Dev Diary - News from the Eastern Front

Hi everyone! It’s time to touch base and start talking about what we have been up to since we released 1.6.2. We have been both preparing to start on the next big expansion which will come together with the 1.8 “Husky” Update as well as working on various tasks for 1.7 ‘Hydra’ which is the next upcoming release. Let's jump in. Beware, it’s going to be pretty wordy!

1.7 ‘Hydra’
So first up, why 1.7? This is because we are now going 64-bit which will mean you can no longer run HOI4 on 32-bit, so we want to make it clear it is a different technical base. More on this next dev diary though.
We have also worked on some of the bugs that have popped up since then, most importantly front issues for Germany vs Soviets. This was something that was reported during 1.6.2 development, but as we dug into things it turned out to require a lot more work than we had planned. We made the decision to do it for 1.7, and instead of just fixing that particular issue we also reworked a bit of how fronts and the ai work. This is going to be what the diary will be about today!
Oh and because people will ask... we are not super far away from the 1.7 release. We plan to let you help test it in open beta soon (where soon means like “within a week” or thereabouts).


What’s new on the eastern front?
Operation Barbarossa, which is the German invasion of the Soviet Union, is one of the pivotal balance points in HOI4 (and in all the HOI games) together with the fall of the low countries, Poland and the Sino-Japanese war. After 1.6.2 we had Germany beating the Soviets a bit too easily, and in particular, players had too easy of a time doing it. This had a lot of different reasons. The primary one is that we spent a lot of time overhauling the German strategic and planning AI which has made it very consistent and strong. Additionally for the AI, being good at defending is a much harder job than being good at attacking. What wasn’t working properly was that when the Soviets finally fell, it was often due to an issue related to frontline stability. The Soviet AI would misprioritize this and move a large part of its front elsewhere, leaving a hole that the German AI would often exploit (which players also definitely did). It’s also not fun beating an AI when it makes such a critical mistake. This particular case was extremely random, but the front reaching Crimea was a common factor. At that point, a new front would open at the same time as the line became long enough to require multiple Army Groups to cover it, which was another weakness for the AI. A lot of those technical issues should now behave a lot better and we are consistently seeing much better performance from the Soviets. Although, they do still generally lose in the end, but this is mostly by design.

To explain why this is a good target, let’s look at our balance targets for Barbarossa:
  • The Axis pushes the Soviet line in slowly until the Soviets lose in 1945 unless the Allies secure a big landing and relieve the Soviets, at which point Germany should start losing with its forces split across the 2-3 fronts.
So why is this a good target?
  • As an Axis player, it means business as usual. You get to beat the Soviets, and the better we make the German AI (which does the heavy lifting), the more challenging we can make it for a player Germany and still retain the balance target.
  • As a Comintern player it means you need to defend, hold out, and push back Germany. Here, the stronger we can make the German AI, the more challenging it is for a Soviet player. So to keep our balance target we want to make the Soviet as tough as possible, but on their own, they need to break by ‘45.
  • As an Allied player, you have a bit of a race on your hands. A Germany that has beaten the Soviets will be a very difficult target, so you need to build up your strength and preferably strike when the German army is as extended, as it will get some solid landing points (ai is better at defending too now, so this is not always so easy). From a balance point, we need to make sure that the eastern front holds up long enough for you to get ready to do this. If the Soviets can push back the Germans on their own, there is no reason to play someone on the Allied side. If Germany beats the Soviet too fast, you will not have time to get involved (especially since the Allies are much more spread across the world and contains more minor nations we wanna make sure can make it to the party).
Hopefully, that clarifies how we think about stuff. At the moment the allies do ok in Africa, but pulling off consistent D-Day scale invasions is something we have as more of a long term goal we are working on. Invasion skill for the AI has improved a lot, but the AI has also gotten better at defending. We have thought out a long term plan to also tackle this, but it requires a lot more strategic planning on the side of the AI with respect to theaters, so it is something you will need to look forward to in the future :)

AI in Hearts of Iron is a very complex problem and something we will always be working on improving. It will never really be “done”. We are feeling a lot better about the eastern front now and shuffling issues there, but there is, of course, lots of work left to do everywhere. It won’t fix everything, but I hope it will feel a lot better when you get to try fighting the Soviets again in 1.7 :)

Tools
So while I am talking about AI, let's take a look at some of the tools we use to stay on top of the strategic situation and to help find relevant savegames, etc.

Every night we run several machines hands-off that record various data for us and lets us check whether we broke something, measure improvements, etc. Loading 30 savegames every morning and going over them is neither fun nor effective, so we have developed this awesome web tool that gives us a quick timeline and map to scan over:

Screenshot_1.jpg


Heat maps also make it easy to scan over time and see where the AI is distributing and focusing its units. This example below is highlighting the Japanese forces late 41:

Screenshot_9.jpg


Unit Controller for Players
So that was all about the AI, but we have also done underlying changes as well as UI that will affect you as a player.

A lot of players liked using primarily Army Group Orders for their armies so we have been doing various improvements there. For example, if you do not want to mess with individual army orders on a front you could already hit Shift-Click when setting up the frontline and it would simply keep all the units on the army group order. This is primarily how the AI handles big fronts now. If you do it this way as a player we have cut down a lot of the clutter you get by spreading multiple armies over the same area by having divisions without individual orders and part of an army group order to simply show and group on the map by using the Army Group color. As an example, this is an Army Group Frontline where each army is assigned a piece:

upload_2019-5-15_16-31-1.png

Now, if you are the kind of player who has a big front and wants to simplify things by giving it all over to the Army Group (Shift-Click to create the frontline) you will get this:
upload_2019-5-15_16-31-16.png


There are still 3 armies there, but because you didn’t care to assign a position we won't clutter things by showing that (this also work for garrisoning which is really nice for big areas). You can still select the individual armies as normal in the bottom bar and in the selection lists etc.

For players who prefer to keep control over where each army is assigned we have also made that easier in two important ways:
  • Each army front piece on an army group front must connect, so no holes are allowed. That among other things means that you only need to adjust one point (the connection point) if you want to adjust how much frontline each gets, rather than trying to adjust 2 points, sometimes while the front was moving and with the game unpaused :S
  • We have added controls to be able to change the order of the armies if you want to reshuffle that. The middle of each line when in Edit Mode will now show arrows which let you swap position for that piece of the frontline with its neighbors.
upload_2019-5-15_16-50-51.png


We have also increased saturation on all the rendering of plans on the map to make sure they are easier to see and to make sure they match their respective army colors better.

Next week we will be going over other bugfixes, balance and other changes so tune in then!
 

DerGrößteRitter

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The reason why I wrote that sentence is because I am aware of how Hitler actually "prepared" the war (spoiler alert: he did not). That incompetence and arrogance I talked about did not start in 39. It became a massive problem already in 33. While it sure remains debatable if early Moscow would have been better than wrecking Kiev or going for the caucasus was smarter than attempting to seize Moscow a second time, its not debatable that there was no holistic approach in the german war preparations. The armaments industry was a dumpster fire, the heavy industry was a dumpster fire, the situation in the agricultural sector was outright horrid. Germany was lacking coal. Coal, ffs. Germany could have flooded the industry of occupied France with coal and hence gained an important source of aluminum as well as other war materials. Germany had and still has today massive coal deposits. None of that did happen. Due to Hitler. He is personally at fault here.

Also, I do not consider the Wehrmacht to be superior to any other allied army. Neither the equipment, nor the doctrines, nor the fighting spirit, and certainly not the quality of the generals staff or the officers in general. The Wehrmacht pulled off two stunts, the first being the Sichelschnitt, the second being launching Barbarossa while the Red Army was reorganizing. Before that and after that was nothing special and in no way superior to anything
Er, what? You are really grasping here...
 

Keihndeth

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According to most books on the Eastern Front I've read, Lend-Lease only really picked up steam in 1942-43. It certainly helped, especially in the later part of the war and in the air war, but the vast majority of the effort was done by the Soviet Union themselves. They turned the war around in 1941-42, mostly by themselves. Without Lend-Lease, it would've taken longer with much more loss of life, but the Germans were already aware they were losing the war when Stalingrad happened.

And I'd be perfectly fine with the Allied Lend-Lease contribution being represented in-game. What I'm NOT fine with, is the game being balanced at the Soviets being crushed by Germany around 1945 if the Allies don't come in swinging with a large-scale invasion.

There are so many issues with your viewpoint and understanding of history, I'm not sure where to begin. Suffice it to say, the USSR almost lost the war with the Allies assisting in supplies, equipment, naval suffocation, and threat of naval invasion pinning down incredible amounts of resources and men. If Torch fails and the Suez falls to German and Italian hands then the whole outcome of the war changes. If the Suez entered Axis hands, the Japanese would have very likely invaded Siberia and began trading with Axis powers. Mussolini isn't deposed, fascist Italy doesn't fall, Germany doesn't have to reinforce Italy...

You seem to not understand truly how close this conflict was to being lost for both the Allies and USSR. One significant battle going the other way could have changed the course of history, which is what makes these types of games fun - the "what if" scenarios. None of that really matters, however. This is a video game. Even if you were right (you're not) it wouldn't be very engaging to play if the Axis just implodes just at the hands of the USSR by themselves. Gameplay trumps Historical Accuracy in this case presuming you were correct (again, you're not). There are very clear and obvious design reasons as to why the game is designed this way.
 

Crecer13

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There are so many issues with your viewpoint and understanding of history, I'm not sure where to begin. Suffice it to say, the USSR almost lost the war with the Allies assisting in supplies, equipment, naval suffocation, and threat of naval invasion pinning down incredible amounts of resources and men. If Torch fails and the Suez falls to German and Italian hands then the whole outcome of the war changes. If the Suez entered Axis hands, the Japanese would have very likely invaded Siberia and began trading with Axis powers. Mussolini isn't deposed, fascist Italy doesn't fall, Germany doesn't have to reinforce Italy...

You seem to not understand truly how close this conflict was to being lost for both the Allies and USSR. One significant battle going the other way could have changed the course of history, which is what makes these types of games fun - the "what if" scenarios. None of that really matters, however. This is a video game. Even if you were right (you're not) it wouldn't be very engaging to play if the Axis just implodes just at the hands of the USSR by themselves. Gameplay trumps Historical Accuracy in this case presuming you were correct (again, you're not). There are very clear and obvious design reasons as to why the game is designed this way.

Japan captured the Far East? A very doubtful statement, throughout the war, the USSR held a large number of soldiers in the Far Eastern Front: in 1941: 500 thousand people. In 1945: 1.7 million people. And the Japanese remembered Khalkhin-Gol, they did not enter the war against the USSR when Germany was near Moscow, this was their best chance that they lost.
 

Captured Joe

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Suffice it to say, the USSR almost lost the war with the Allies assisting in supplies, equipment, naval suffocation, and threat of naval invasion pinning down incredible amounts of resources and men.
Citation needed.

As far as I can tell, the only ones who assert that the Soviet Union "almost lost the war" are wartime German generals and the ones who rely on their memoirs...
 

Ossiv

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Japan captured the Far East? A very doubtful statement, throughout the war, the USSR held a large number of soldiers in the Far Eastern Front: in 1941: 500 thousand people. In 1945: 1.7 million people. And the Japanese remembered Khalkhin-Gol, they did not enter the war against the USSR when Germany was near Moscow, this was their best chance that they lost.

When the Germans were nearing Moscow, the Japanese Emperor had already accepted the "Navy Plan" to fight in the Pacific. The competing "Army Plan" to fight in the mainland and attack the Soviets in Siberia had been rejected. Both aimed to catch natural resources Japan lacked, either in the South East Asia or in (Soviet) Siberia. The Japanese knew they could only choose one plan, both at the same time was considered impossible with their resources. We now know that the Japanese choice led them to disaster. Japan joining the Germans in 1941 was a real historical possibility, if Army proposition had won the Emperors favor.
The Soviets feared a Japanese attack in 1941 until their spy Sorge (a German diplomat in Tokyo) told Moscow that Japan had choosen to attack in the Pacific.
 

jevry

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the problem with this balance goal imo is that if any AI takes a different focus the balance is even tipped further against the USSR.
addidtionally fascist spain seriously needs to stop joining the axis especially in historical focus mode it's very annoying and very ahistoric.
 

angelgrozd

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To explain why this is a good target, let’s look at our balance targets for Barbarossa:
  • The Axis pushes the Soviet line in slowly until the Soviets lose in 1945 unless the Allies secure a big landing and relieve the Soviets, at which point Germany should start losing with its forces split across the 2-3 fronts.
So why is this a good target?
  • As an Axis player, it means business as usual. You get to beat the Soviets, and the better we make the German AI (which does the heavy lifting), the more challenging we can make it for a player Germany and still retain the balance target.
  • As a Comintern player it means you need to defend, hold out, and push back Germany. Here, the stronger we can make the German AI, the more challenging it is for a Soviet player. So to keep our balance target we want to make the Soviet as tough as possible, but on their own, they need to break by ‘45.
  • As an Allied player, you have a bit of a race on your hands. A Germany that has beaten the Soviets will be a very difficult target, so you need to build up your strength and preferably strike when the German army is as extended, as it will get some solid landing points (ai is better at defending too now, so this is not always so easy). From a balance point, we need to make sure that the eastern front holds up long enough for you to get ready to do this. If the Soviets can push back the Germans on their own, there is no reason to play someone on the Allied side. If Germany beats the Soviet too fast, you will not have time to get involved (especially since the Allies are much more spread across the world and contains more minor nations we wanna make sure can make it to the party).
To be honest i disagree with this kind of design philosophy . I understand that the game needs to be balanced however I think it can be done in a much better historically accurate way .
Here is what I would suggest I think the Soviets should be able to beat Germany alone however it should be made so that it is a lot slower if there is no allied invasion maybe the Soviets would be able to defeat Germany around 1948 . A player would probably want to finish a lot sooner .
 

Crecer13

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To be honest i disagree with this kind of design philosophy . I understand that the game needs to be balanced however I think it can be done in a much better historically accurate way .
Here is what I would suggest I think the Soviets should be able to beat Germany alone however it should be made so that it is a lot slower if there is no allied invasion maybe the Soviets would be able to defeat Germany around 1948 . A player would probably want to finish a lot sooner .

I think this is quite historical and realistic. The USSR would have won Germany without the Allies around 1947-48. Just as the USA would have defeated Japan by 1946-47 (these were the predictions of the US command) without the Soviet invasion of Manchuria.
 

Parabola

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I think this is quite historical and realistic. The USSR would have won Germany without the Allies around 1947-48. Just as the USA would have defeated Japan by 1946-47 (these were the predictions of the US command) without the Soviet invasion of Manchuria.
Thats not taking into account Hitlers strategic mistakes during the war. Even if you look at his defensive ones from 1943 onwards, he made alot. Reguarly ordered no retreat that ended in many Germans being surrounded and then rarely ordered them to break out. If they had pulled back to more defensive positions who knows how long it could have lasted?
 
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Captured Joe

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Thats not taking into account Hitlers strategic mistakes during the war. Even if you look at his defensive ones from 1943 onwards, he made alot. Reguarly ordered no retreat that ended in many Germans being surrounded and then rarely ordered them to break out. If they had pulled back to more defensive positions who knows how long it could have lasted?
Many of "Hitler's mistakes" were actually made by his generals, who blamed Hitler for every mistake in their memoirs after the war. Hitler wasn't a very good general, but he wasn't as appalingly bad at it as is usually thought.

For example, the German 6th Army not breaking out of Stalingrad was the fault of Von Manstein, who persuaded Hitler that he could break through to them without the 6th Army needing to break out themselves. When it became clear this was impossible, he refused to order a breakout himself (even though he'd have the authority to do so), and put the blame on Hitler and Paulus in his memoirs.

Arguably, Hitler's biggest mistake was invading the Soviet Union to begin with. But the whole "if it wasn't for Hitler, the brilliant and infallible German generals could've won the war" is just a myth, crafted by those same generals.
 

Crecer13

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Thats not taking into account Hitlers strategic mistakes during the war. Even if you look at his defensive ones from 1943 onwards, he made alot. Reguarly ordered no retreat that ended in many Germans being surrounded and then rarely ordered them to break out. If they had pulled back to more defensive positions who knows how long it could have lasted?

Germany may have capitulated even faster but with fewer losses. The concept of the City-Fortress, which was invented by Hitler, was applied in large cities with a large railway and road junction. These cities could not be left surrounded and continue the offensive. These were railway junctions which are necessary for the supply and reinforcement of the army. Therefore, the assault on these Fortresses is unnecessary sacrifice, a decrease in supply and speed of advance for the Red Army.
 

hkrommel

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I think it can be done in a much better historically accurate way .
Here is what I would suggest I think the Soviets should be able to beat Germany alone however it should be made so that it is a lot slower if there is no allied invasion maybe the Soviets would be able to defeat Germany around 1948 . A player would probably want to finish a lot sooner .

1. Nowhere did Podcat say the Soviets were "alone"
2. The Soviets would not be able to defeat the Germans alone. Maybe fight to a stalemate, but not defeat. They simply didn't have the industry and refining capacity necessary to carry out large offensives without aid, especially against an unblockaded Germany with much less manpower drain in the West and no strategic bombing (so no reduced fuel and armament production, and the entire Luftwaffe would be sent east rather than a disproportionately small amount of it). So your understanding of "historically accurate" is incorrect.
 
Last edited:

CrazyZombie

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The Soviets would not be able to defeat the Germans alone. Maybe fight to a stalemate, but not defeat. They simply didn't have the industry and refining capacity necessary to carry out large offensives without aid, especially against an unblockaded Germany with much less manpower drain in the West and no strategic bombing (so no reduced fuel and armament production, and the entire Luftwaffe would be sent east rather than a disproportionately small amount of it). So your understanding of "historically accurate" is incorrect.
That scenario should be defined - how unblockaded is Germany? They have defeated RN and successfully carried out Sealion? They haven't got in the war at the West at all? Whom has "eaten" that "unblockaded" Germany before invading SU?

Different possibilities - different context.
 

hkrommel

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That scenario should be defined - how unblockaded is Germany? They have defeated RN and successfully carried out Sealion? They haven't got in the war at the West at all? Whom has "eaten" that "unblockaded" Germany before invading SU?

Different possibilities - different context.

The person I was responding to clearly stated that "the Soviets should be able to beat Germany alone." By that, he/she probably means alone. No Allied involvement. If some other scenario was contemplated, the person should have communicated that.
 

Praetori

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As I did not think, but it is impossible to simulate June 22, 1941 and in which the USSR turned up in a slouch:
- firstly, Germany struck suddenly without a declaration of war; this is impossible in a game
- secondly, the Soviet infantry divisions were staffed by peacetime soldiers. In most divisions there were from 5 to 8 thousand soldiers instead of 12 thousand. And the divisions sent to the border were the same.
- third, a warning about possible threats was received a day before the war and there was a limit not to succumb to provocation. And many generals did not mobilize the soldiers.

All these factors can not be at least somehow simulated or replaced in the game. So in the game the USSR will beat Germany.

PDS have done a fair effort on Japan and China mechanics and there are several mods that try to emulate the issues that the Red Army faced during the summer and Autumn of '41.
It IS possible and would work in MP as well (although you'd need artificial mechanics that basically force the Soviets to keep historical forces on the Axis borders up until the start of Barbarossa or it'd be silly-simple to exploit/avoid in MP).
 

Crecer13

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PDS have done a fair effort on Japan and China mechanics and there are several mods that try to emulate the issues that the Red Army faced during the summer and Autumn of '41.
It IS possible and would work in MP as well (although you'd need artificial mechanics that basically force the Soviets to keep historical forces on the Axis borders up until the start of Barbarossa or it'd be silly-simple to exploit/avoid in MP).
The USSR did not have quite a bit of time to prepare. If the war had been drafted before 1942. Germany would have had an army of new T-34Ms, with 60-mm frontal armor, according to plans, out of 500 T-34Ms produced in 1941, 380 were equipped with 57-mm cannon and KV-3 with the most powerful 107-mm cannon. German tanks would get some serious resistance.
https://warspot.ru/14044-predvoennaya-perspektiva
https://warspot.ru/4960-kv-3-nabor-tankovoy-massy

I would like to see this historical aspirations of the USSR in rework.
 

CrazyZombie

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PDS have done a fair effort on Japan and China mechanics and there are several mods that try to emulate the issues that the Red Army faced during the summer and Autumn of '41.
It IS possible and would work in MP as well (although you'd need artificial mechanics that basically force the Soviets to keep historical forces on the Axis borders up until the start of Barbarossa or it'd be silly-simple to exploit/avoid in MP).
You can't simulate deliberate sabotage (or extreme retardness) of Western Special Military District command in the game. It would be too counterintuitive mechanic on the same level with HOI3 modifiers, strictly tied to exact dates. Situation wasn't that bad on Northern and Southern flanks of Soviets in the first days, but military disaster in the center logically led to situation in general, being complete f*ck up.

As for "sudden attack" concept... Well, it wasn't that sudden, actually. There were orders from Moscow to be prepared, provide disguise measures for airfields and airwings, cancel vacations of personel and etc. Directive of Red Army General Staff on 18.06.41 already ordered "full combat readiness", while Directive on 21.06.41 was additional one, expanding measures of mentioned "combat readiness". All that orders and directives of "being ready" in one or another aspect were issued since April-May of 1941, because everyone remembered it pretty well, how Russian Empire started mobilisation and immediately got war declaration.
 

Ossiv

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For example, the German 6th Army not breaking out of Stalingrad was the fault of Von Manstein, who persuaded Hitler that he could break through to them without the 6th Army needing to break out themselves. When it became clear this was impossible, he refused to order a breakout himself (even though he'd have the authority to do so), and put the blame on Hitler and Paulus in his memoirs.

Not true. When von Manstein's attack stalled before Stalingrad, he ordered (as Army Group commander) Paulus (his subordinate) to break out. Paulus could have just obyed and blamed von Manstain later, if Hitler would not have accepted. But instead Paulus asked for Hitler's permission. When Hitler said "No", Paulus stayed in Stalingrad and doomed his troops.
 

Captured Joe

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Not true. When von Manstein's attack stalled before Stalingrad, he ordered (as Army Group commander) Paulus (his subordinate) to break out.
That's what he claims in his memoirs yes, but in reality Paulus never received this order from von Manstein, even though he several times requested permission to break out. IF von Manstein had actually gived that order, Paulus would've tried to break out. But von Manstein didn't dare to do so, and doomed the 6th army. And lied about it after the war to shift the blame.