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HOI4 Dev Diary - Mexico

Welcome to Mexico, a country ravaged by internal tensions, corrupt politicians, rural rebellions and threatened by the looming shadow of her northern neighbour. In Man the Guns, you will get the chance to work through all these obstacles, reform the nation and turn them into a power strong enough to expand or involve themselves in WW2.

mexico.jpg


The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
Mexico’s politics at this time were dominated by revolutionary generals who toppled the dictator Diaz and then squabbled amongst themselves, issuing their pronunciamiento (a justification for their attempt to seize power) and betraying one another ruthlessly. Three of the main figures from these caudillos (a word combining the role of warlord, patron, businessman and politician) were President Lázaro Cárdenas, President Plutarco Calles, and military strongman Saturnino Cedillo. The ruling clique gradually turned from coups and civil wars to less violent means of seeking power, but at the start of the game this transition is still taking place.

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Lázaro Cárdenas, president from 1934 to 1940, was a socialist who led the nationalisation of Mexican oil concessions, built up state financing of manufacturing industries, encouraged the collectivisation of peasant farms and their protection from landlords via Ejido militias, and is celebrated today for his role in modernising the nation. Historically he helped the transition of Mexico from military dictatorship to a stable and functioning democracy thanks to his ability to both compromise with moderate opposition and undermine domestic threats to the state from extremists.

MEX_Calles_in_power.png


Plutarco Calles, president from 1924 to 1928 and “shadow president” for much of the reigns of his successors, was a divisive figure to say the least. He attempted to cement the state’s power over the Catholic Church in Mexico using brutal suppression of priests and their faithful, going as far as torturing and even crucifying dissidents. The Cristiada, a rebellion by rural farmers to oppose this forced secularisation, won little success in the field against Calles’ troops, hardened as they were by civil war and supported by modern artillery and bomber planes, but it did cause some concern inside the ruling clique over methods, ultimately leading to a compromise between church and state. Calles still clings to the power he has left, and you must either throw him out of the country or accept his role in the new Mexico.
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Saturnino Cedillo, governor of San Luis Potosí, was one of the last of the caudillos to threaten the Mexican state. A survivor, he absorbed remnants of the Cristero rebels into his private army and managed to maintain relative independence in his province which the central government sought to crush. Ultimately he rebelled against Cardenas’ incursions into his power base. Historically his rebellion was short lived as the Cardenas government successfully undercut his support and disarmed his paramilitary forces, killing him in the field within a few months. Cardenas suspected America and Britain of inciting Cedillo’s rebellion by promising support, in order to punish Mexico for seizing their oil concessions, but no such support ever arrived.

Economic Development
economic_tree.png


Mexico is a major producer of oil at the game start and only stands to increase its role as an exporter as the conflagration grips the world and upsets the flow of trade around the globe. Historically Mexico’s nationalisation of the concessions granted by Cardenas’ predecessors (mostly to Royal Dutch Shell and Standard Oil of California) caused a backlash from Britain and America which served to isolate Mexico and almost pushed them into the arms of the Germans. In game, you must develop your oil if you wish to become a major international player, and on the way you will build up your infrastructure using either Cardenas’ path of socialism and import substitution, or his successor Avila’s preference, liberalisation and privatisation.

oil_concessions.png


As seen in the Dutch dev diary, HoI4 is getting a new mechanic relating to concessions of resources from one country to another, which transfers the contents of a state free of charge. This will make its appearance in Mexico in the form of oil concessions to Royal Dutch Shell and Standard Oil of California. Nationalising these assets was a goal of the Mexican revolutionaries from the outset, and became a source of friction between Mexico and the former owners (Britain and America respectively) once President Cardenas actually took steps towards nationalisation.

oil_focuses.png



Military Expansion
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Mexico begins in 1936 as a war-weary third rate power, wracked by internal tensions and the legacy of decades of civil war. This was not always the case, however. The armaments industry established by President Diaz prior to the instability was making many advances in weapons technology, aircraft production, and even experiments in tank development. The famous Mondragon rifle was one of the earliest pioneers in semi-automatic small arms. A more assertive Mexico would also likely reject reliance on Italian gunboats and American hand-me-down destroyers if she sought to contest the oceans.

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After building up factories and shipyards, you have a choice to make on both the army and naval branches of the tree.

A Mexico uninterested in fighting decisive battles might instead decide to focus on convoy raiding, whereas choosing the contest the surface against your rivals will require a powerful surface fleet. The two “finishers” on the naval tree reflect these differences.

naval_ideas.png


When it came to land battles during the various insurrections against the central government, Mexico utilised her infantry, cavalry and nascent airforce in a powerful combined arms force the rebels were unable to defeat, and you will likewise be able to modernise the different branches of the armed forces until deciding between conventional artillery or aerial support as the “finisher” on the army side of the tree.

army_ideas.png


Diplomatic Relations
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Mexico is considered America’s “backyard”, an insulting and imperious attitude for the Yanquis to take but one the Mexican leadership must consider seriously before making their move. Taking independent action on the international stage, aligning towards one of America’s enemies, or threatening America’s economic interests would all be causes of concern for President Roosevelt, let alone his more expansionist domestic rivals. Mexico can gamble on her northern neighbour being too isolationist to intervene south, but if the gamble doesn’t pay off, there’ll be Hell to pay.

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Religion
The biggest divide in Mexican society at the time was certainly the place of the Church within society. Most of the Mexican ruling class was strongly anticlerical and a law “on the tolerance of sects” meant that the priests heavily controlled by the state. If you want to change the situation, it will be up to you to progressively support the Catholic Church by giving back their lands and amend the anticlerical laws. If you go down that path the destruction of the separation between the Church and the State will be waiting for you at the end of the road.
MEX_church_power_decisions.png


Two groups can rise to power hand in hand with the Church: the Catholic conservatives and the Synarchists. The conservatives try to combine their religious beliefs with republican institutions. It would lead to the rise of the Party of National Action of Manuel Gómez Morín. As an alternative, the restoration of the Church can be concomitant with a much more radical group: the Synarchists. That group will try to institute a “clerical-fascist” state, using the influence of the members of the Church eager to seek their revenge on the anticlericalists who ruled Mexico since the 1911 revolution. At the end of both trees, you can contact the veterans of the Cristero War and incorporate them to your armed forces. Such course of action will obviously anger the former ruling class that will surely try to contest power in order to reestablish the anticlerical legal system.

Revolutionary Legacy
At the start of the game, the Mexican army is divided politically as various generals support their own political group depending on their political orientation (they were usually opposed to the Church). One of your first choice will therefore concern the fate of the armed forces. You can choose to control and depoliticize them, transforming them into a professional force or embrace one of those groups and use them to quickly shift the political landscape of the country.

If you choose to support the Gold Shirts, the country will evolve into an anticlerical authoritarian regime. The exact nature of that regime can however vary a bit. Supporting Plutarco Calles (by selecting the “Jefe Maximo” focus) will grant direct control over the state as he was unable to fully control Cardenas. If Calles was previously exiled and the general Saturnino Cedillo was supported however, he will lead the opposition and take control of the government. If none of those conditions are fulfilled, Nicolás Rodríguez Carrasco, the leader of the Gold Shirts will lead the country instead.

civil_wars.png

MEX_saturnino_cedillo.png


As an alternative to right-wing authoritarianism, you can favor the communist Red Shirts and suppress other political movements instead. This revolutionary movement will give the presidential seat to the Trotskyist head of the communist party Hernán Laborde

MEX_hernan_laborde.png


… unless you invited his mentor to the government previously.

MEX_trotsky_is_marching_home.png


You would then be rewarded by Leon himself, awake and angry, ready to take his revenge against Stalin

MEX_Trotsky_awake_and_angry.png


It would then be your objective to lead the 4th Internationale and show how superior it is to the 3rd (aka the Comintern).

If you want more peaceful solutions, multiple tools are at your disposal, depending on your political orientation. If you are communist and don’t want to embrace the political legacy of the 4th International, you can try to form the Revolutionary American League and spread communism in Latin American countries.

As a more right wing oriented government, you can support “Hispanism”; the concept that the countries of South America should support each other; and try to form a faction including all of South America. If you are fascist (Synarchist or anticlerical), the effect will change from a diplomatic offensive to a more violent one. This course of action will allow you access to wargoal focuses that could enable you to unite South America by force.

If trying to dramatically change the political order in Latin America is not your thing, you can simply adopt “Realpolitik” and find allies in order to survive this era of global conflict.

Territorial Expansion
If you don’t want to just send a few planes to help the US against the Japanese, several expansion paths will be available to you once your diplomatic status is settled. Most of those will grant you wargoals against neighboring countries and in some cases, the addition of new cores will become possible.

MEX_territorial_integration.png


The most peculiar plan is certainly “Operation Just Cause”. If you approve that plan you will be in a border conflict against US in order take control of the Panama canal area.

MEX_operation_just_cause.png


This will of course anger the US so be careful. The rest is either pretty straightforward or will be food for thoughts until the release.

Mexico was our final focus tree for MTG, so next we return to to the seas for more naval gameplay updates.

Rejected Titles:
  • Mexico? More like Maxico!
  • Making your casa my casa
  • Where in the world is Leon Trotsky?
  • No one expects the Mexican inquisition. Seriously. No one...
  • Mexico, or how I learned to stop worrying and love el jefe
  • Hit or Miss, I Guess They Never Miss Huh, You Got a Trotsky, Stalin gon' Icepick Ya

READ Thread mark before posting (no offtopic spam)
 
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Armacalic

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A country characterised by civil wars, ruling cliques of military strongmen, political assassinations, armed rebellions, regional despots, clerical dominance, shadow presidents, a politicised military, collectivisation, and so on, is not a democracy.

If you want to know what a democracy looks like, take a look at the Nordic countries, France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, the UK and US, etc.

Then, considering that it would not be possible to change the ruling system without being ousted fro the country or assassinated, and where the ultimate goal of those in power besides the church, was to keep the representative republic as a thing and ultimately keep it working, not to mention this being the same sort of ruling system used by the US and not forgetting the fact that this is the elections would ultimately not be impaired in anyway, what would you call it?

It's a democracy, not entirely a healthy one but a democracy nonetheless.
 

rus-chel

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So conserning the nationalization of oil.
Let's say Mexico nationolizes, UK and US goes to war.
Without foreign intervention mexico is puppeted to US, with some horrible-looking piece going to UK as colony. May be event-based peace should be done?
Next - if US and UK goes to war with Mexico, other great countries are OUGHT to react. At least France (to spoil the british party), USSR, Germany and Italy must receive an event to choose whether to react and how. I imagine event-spawned deivisions ala german civil war if majors intervene.
And if Mexico receives enough help to make a stalemate? I think if capital is not taken in 1 year, there should be an enforced peace, giving Mexico what it wanted with a meaty national spirit as country that recently helf off foreign intervention.
 

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Then, considering that it would not be possible to change the ruling system without being ousted fro the country or assassinated, and where the ultimate goal of those in power besides the church, was to keep the representative republic as a thing and ultimately keep it working, not to mention this being the same sort of ruling system used by the US and not forgetting the fact that this is the elections would ultimately not be impaired in anyway, what would you call it?

It's a democracy, not entirely a healthy one but a democracy nonetheless.
Autocracy, authoritarian democracy, quasi-dictatorship, totalitarian democracy, semi-democracy? I don't know, but it's definitely not in the same basket as most of the West in this time period.
 

Armacalic

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Autocracy, authoritarian democracy, quasi-dictatorship, totalitarian democracy, semi-democracy? I don't know, but it's definitely not in the same basket as most of the West in this time period.

And yet it's far more like a democracy compared to any of the fascist or outright authoritarian regimes. It also wasn't communist or socialist. And obviously it can't be a monarchy.
 

Celdur

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@podcat great DD and Mexico is a fairly good choice for this and I would like to visit Mexico if it didn’t have a bunch of rampant drug cartels and the Mexicans didn’t outright hate Americans but anyway I like the choice and the focus tree looks amazing but 1. the focus tree looks like it would take a while to go down so the USA would have plenty of time to build up so Mexico wouldn’t stand a chance of getting the pre Mexican-American war territory back. 2. it doesn’t look like there is any way to restore the Mexican Empire with a monarch which is disappointing and 3. is there a way to have a conservative democracy with the Catholic Church not nationalized as the focus tree doesn’t seem to make that clear.

What? Mexico recives like 35 million turists every year, making them top 5 or 6 in the world and there are over 1 million US citizens living in Mexico (many of them retirees) You need to get out of your information bubble more buddy. I know this, and i'm not even Mexican or from the USA!
 

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1) You can see in the videos where Paradox showed the metrics they had that people play with historical events off in a quite meaningful capacity.
2) You are now sidestepping your own claim that historical paths are being sacrificed for ahistorical flavor. Already pointed out the historical paths are still there and aren't being removed any time soon. So yes, screw off, you cannot walk that one off.
3) Your notion of fun is just as subjective, you're not right here.
4) The mechanics have nothing to do with alternative or historical routes, you aren't even trying to say anything intelligent here. The mechanics are evolving to service and expand the game, and you cannot make any real claim that the mechanics are being created to service alt-history routes, if you try and do, you're being obnoxious or dumb.
5) I agree with you about the bugs, who wouldn't? But that's not the point is it? You're angry your country didn't get picked and are lashing at everyone who doesn't agree with you.
6) You cannot even use the insult right, please. I'm actually the one using a brain here while you're still salty that your country didn't get picked and are picking at all the arguments you can to write people who don't agree with you off. Stop consuming so much sodium chloride and stop annoying other people with the outburst. Brasil will get picked at some point.
 

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The premise of the game first and foremost is to reflect the events that transpire the 2nd world war. The caliber in which is being mitigated due to the increasing investment in alternative history. So I say to you as well "screw of" with the assertion that it isn't being invasive because it very much is. Paradox first and foremost marketed this title as a historically plausible WW2 grand strategy game. Which only got altered over time because of the misplaced perception that because people apply the alternative branches in great number that it must be the inherent reason people are paying for the DLC or interest to play their game.

When in reality the fact remains the game maintains a state of shallowness that goes up to my ankles in many attributes. Which only continues to maintain because of the many lingering problems exasperated by the practices made by Paradox. They release content very slowly and over long spans of time while vastly ignoring bug fixes and updates until another said DLC comes out. Which include AI issues, balancing problems, system refinement and so on. They also overstack the significance and function of alternative history. It shouldn't overshadow the Historical foundation and events the game is built around it should enhance it. But the way they are going about it they make it seem all they care for is the alternative history. Whats the point in making a world war 2 game if your entire premise from here on out is to steer as far away from the path as possible? For your hollow, lazy, and subjective notion of "Fun?" Ya throwing rocks into a pond can also be fun for some people but when those individuals decide to try and actually make those rocks skip does that make them not as enticed to the concept of throwing rocks into a pond? No it means they are creating and evolving what they were doing in order to enhance their experience instead of just doing the same thing over and over again. Maybe instead of throwing more handfuls of rocks into the pond actually try skipping the stones for a change.

Aka stop being so "Numb skulled" in how this stuff is being laid out. Actually engage that brain of yours and quit trying to die on the hill for something that will come and go as quickly as the wind while the actual history will shine through and remain.

Alternative history is what makes the games fun. Whever you play as a nation you are already writting your alternative history. There is a historical mode option where every nation does roughly what they did RL, reaciting to the player. But each time you play it opens up a window to an alternate reality where things happened a little bit different, the more focus trees the countries of the world have, the better flesh out and alive the game world will be instead of being repetitive.

Pdx games are not simulations, although they can be, most of it its about creating your own story.
 

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1) You can see in the videos where Paradox showed the metrics they had that people play with historical events off in a quite meaningful capacity.
2) You are now sidestepping your own claim that historical paths are being sacrificed for ahistorical flavor. Already pointed out the historical paths are still there and aren't being removed any time soon. So yes, screw off, you cannot walk that one off.
3) Your notion of fun is just as subjective, you're not right here.
4) The mechanics have nothing to do with alternative or historical routes, you aren't even trying to say anything intelligent here. The mechanics are evolving to service and expand the game, and you cannot make any real claim that the mechanics are being created to service alt-history routes, if you try and do, you're being obnoxious or dumb.
5) I agree with you about the bugs, who wouldn't? But that's not the point is it? You're angry your country didn't get picked and are lashing at everyone who doesn't agree with you.
6) You cannot even use the insult right, please. I'm actually the one using a brain here while you're still salty that your country didn't get picked and are picking at all the arguments you can to write people who don't agree with you off. Stop consuming so much sodium chloride and stop annoying other people with the outburst. Brasil will get picked at some point.
1. Ya maybe because playing historical is often times not even historical? Or do you call republicans winning the Spanish civil war, Yugo declaring on Bulgaria, Russia killing Finland twice, Italy being called in early, China and Japan killing either or outright, the UK not guarding its key holdings, Germany not building anything past panzer 4s, and a dozen other examples of enticing historical play? No.
2. They are being sacrificed for alternative historical play. Explain then why Germany, Japan, Uk, and the US rework are primarily centered around alternative history focuses and pathways? Because they didn't have them? Oh right history is dull and the outrageous is cool? I guess maybe the aliens have landed focus will be next on their list.
3. and neither are you.
4. Oh they don't? Hmm lets see every DLC so far has had a subsequent mechanic tied into them many of which coincide with said focus trees to highlight and enhance said mechanic from the commonwealth with the puppet system, Romania/Hungary with lend lease, the Warlords and border skirmish. They don't fundamentally encourage alternative history pathways but they are a selling point which are then tacked on to increase the value of the mechanic by making it more applicable within the tree itself. How you even got the assertion that was my point from me relaying my annoyance to them ignoring mechanical refining or include it such a lack luster capacity that it isn't even worthwhile or applicable half the time Is beyond me.
5 and 6. My country is the United States of America. I advocated for Brazil because Militarily they had a more obvious and direct military involvement then Mexico and at the time we had no concrete route in the manner they were handling it. I don't care brazil wasn't picked you on the other hand seem to retain a lingering bitterness at even the notion of someone thinking your country not worthy of having a focus tree. Which was never my stance in the first place. You just want that to be the case. Just chill you got what wanted being vindictive because someone so happened to prefer a different country at the time is not gonna give you those extra big boy points you seem so eager to have.
 

.Del

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Ah yes, communist regimes. Those well known observers of the niceties of bourgeois legality?

I’m just going to cross post what my answer was to the last guy who said the same thing.

The thing about Mexican communism is that it has a very real undercurrent of nationalism. The main reason oil companies was nationalized (the event from the leak) was to expel the foreigners who threatened Mexican soverignty and way of life. Cardenas (The current Mexican President in the game right now) even said in his speech that the British oil companies were basically robbing Mexico and blatantly breaking their laws despite having preferential treatment and were funding rebel groups in the country.

If Trotsky interfered with Mexican politics, he would've been deported under Article 30. The Mexican constitution does not allow foreigners to hold any political or hold a military officer position. In order for that to happen, you would need to rip up the Mexican constitution entirey. Which would never fly with the politics as they were during the time.

Trotsky Mexico is such a meme its like electing Macho Man Randy Savage to be the president of America.

Trotsky had next to ZERO support in Mexico, its why he had personal security on his estate that was on par with the Mexican president.

Not to mention it is illegal in the revolutionary constitution for a foreigner to hold office, and for trotsky to influence any politics at all. He was under a gag order and unable to leave the house because half the left wanted him dead and the other half weren't his supporters and wanted his mouth shut.
 

RommelTheDesertFox

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Not Turkey but OTTOMAN EMPIRE!!!!!!!
As the Ot
Ya fundamentally I think there needs to be a prioritization to a universal political refinement and governmental management system in regards for events to be able to play out. Every path is too accessible/easy and that is the fault of the focus tree system. There needs to be more management and manipulation required (there are some focus that do add requirements but those are hardly equivalent to what I am seeking). If not It just makes it boring. Some people prob have more fun watching the events play out as opposed to the journey to make them play out. However its starting to get very stale in the way they are selling it. I mean at least for the US they added the congress mechanic so there is some progress being made to some extent. But having to wait every 6-8 months for the hope that some element of that might come (which it might not ever in a greater capacity given the money flow they obviously are getting from the alternative history craze) is just disappointing and a missed opportunity for interesting grand strategy play in the form of governmental/nation building.
I would prefer to be able to play historically over trying to and then the focuses being locked behind prerequisites and might I mention that the core intention of the game is history.
 

RommelTheDesertFox

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Honestly, he was foolish. Very, very foolish, trying to provoke the US at that time. Daring, yes, but it achieved almost nothing other than getting Pershing in. Zapata was the one doing the real work, and that's why he's celebrated in Mexico rather than Villa.
Why do you like and defend a man that killed many innocent people from a country that wasn't even his during a time of no war!?!? How can anyone like a person like him!?!? I am glad the United States went to war with Mexico to take care of Pancho Villa, Good riddance.

EDIT: I made a mistake as I misread the comment and I apologise for that.
 
Last edited:

RommelTheDesertFox

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The vast, vast majority of forces sent to Egypt/Libya came around Africa regardless once Italy was in the war - there was at least one and I think a couple of Gibraltar to Alexandria operations (Tiger and maybe one other, memory hazy....) but these weren't "if the ships don't get through, we lose Egypt" situations.

Malta would be another story though - I'd imagine if Gibraltar fell, Malta would be in a fair bit of trouble unless the Allies made much better progress in Libya.

Far more importantly imo, Spain being in the war gives Germany u-boat bases from Brest to (at least) Gibraltar, which would make their position in the Battle of the Atlantic far stronger.
Oh I didn't know that, but anyway those were very good points mate and thanks for pointing out that the fact that most of their ships went around and real life as since I did not know I would never have corrected myself so thanks for correcting me!
 

RommelTheDesertFox

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Yeah I feel that's missing too.

Yeah it's weird that it can apperantly be a monarchy but only through outside influence.

Didn't the last Bornaparte die in the Boer/Zulu war? I could swear there was an event about it in Vic2...
Oh wait no it was the last direct descendant of Napoleon I.

The last direct descendant of Napoleon has been dead for decades at this point.

Revolutionary France hated monarchy, until the right monarch turned up.

I think you can assume that if Trotsky is leader then Laborde is working behind the scenes hence why their bonuses are so similar. That said I would have made Trotsky a national spirit and suggested he has ruling from behind the scenes.


A civil war was not at all an unlikely thing for america, the south still felt discontent, and the reconstruction had left them in a much better relative position than before the first civil war.

There's also the case of there not being any real monarchies on the american continents at the moment (Sorry Canada but your King is over the ocean, your king is over the sea). There is no way to become the emperor of America at the moment. Though if the US had gotten a chance to put the house of Norton up... (It's a joke Emperor Norton did not have any heirs as far as I know).

Why would you bundle up the nordics with the USSR? You do realize they fought against the USSR right? Finland directly and Sweden indirectly. In fact if the king had not gone out and supported Per Albin Hansson it's likely there would have been a coup and Sweden joining the war on the Finnish side.
I'm talking about Louis, prince Napoleon of the house of Bonaparte look him up as he was the pretender for the throne of France from 1926 until his death in 1997.
 

safe-keeper

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With all the wildly implausbile alternate history scenarios, I expected there to be national focii about beautiful 80 foot tall walls and Mexico magically agreeing to eat the bill.
 

astartes906

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Can we have more picks of the new gfx please ? ( espacially new units )
 

SovietWeeb

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I'm really hoping we get focus trees for nations that used to be Naval Giants, Like Portugal, Spain and then a focus tree for both Belgium and Luxemburg. Poor Luxemburg, Used to be a respectable nation and now it's the smallest nation in the game...