HOI4 Dev Diary - Fuel

[philjd]

I just hope that this is not the first step down the rabbit hole of micromanagement - which is a very easy hole to fall into with a resource/production management game.

 

[paranoidsteve]

Fuel will have no effect on the Italians when AI controlled, I am sure that they will continue to board ships in Bordeaux and get sunk by the British in the Bay of Biscay as they try to sail to east Africa after the fall of France. Last game I played they lost over 1 million troops doing this.

 

[Easterling]

Once the new fuel features are out, I am hoping that the city of Baku, the oil-heart of the Soviet Union will play even greater role than it currently does in the game (always craving for more flavour, sorry not sorry). I mean, there is literally a video of Hitler eating a birthday cake with Baku written on it, with chocolate (supposedly oil) glazing it, and it looks straight out of an evil comic book sequence

 

[CaptinObvious]

Once the new fuel features are out, I am hoping that the city of Baku, the oil-heart of the Soviet Union will play even greater role than it currently does in the game (always craving for more flavour, sorry not sorry). I mean, there is literally a video of Hitler eating a birthday cake with Baku written on it, with chocolate (supposedly oil) glazing it, and it looks straight out of an evil comic book sequence

I second this

 

[nsr433]

Please ADD COAL as the Royal Navy used coal as its primary fuel source and fuel oil was added to increase the burn temperature! Perhaps even let the players decide what fuel strategy to use when designing or researching a ship. Such as Coal, Coal with Oil to increase burn temperature and Oil!

 

[shasla6]

Please ADD COAL as the Royal Navy used coal as its primary fuel source and fuel oil was added to increase the burn temperature! Perhaps even let the players decide what fuel strategy to use when designing or researching a ship. Such as Coal, Coal with Oil to increase burn temperature and Oil!

We can't have too many resources, lest the Civ players get confused (or something).

 

[Axe99]

Please ADD COAL as the Royal Navy used coal as its primary fuel source and fuel oil was added to increase the burn temperature! Perhaps even let the players decide what fuel strategy to use when designing or researching a ship. Such as Coal, Coal with Oil to increase burn temperature and Oil!

If we were talking Victoria 3 (let it be!) then this would make a lot of sense, but in WW2 the RN only really used coal for inshore ships like military trawlers. All of the new build ships at the HoI4 level were oil-burners only, which was the same for the vast majority of ships worldwide. Unless I'm having a complete memory fade, there weren't any HoI4-level coal burners left operational in the RN in WW2 (even Centurion, which was a target ship during the war, was I think converted to no longer burn coal - although the demilitarised target ship Iron Duke may still have been a dual coal/oil burner).

The argument behind adding coal in a 1936 plus time period is far more related to energy use and 'economic resilience' (Italy had to import a heap, and Japan relied on it's coastal waterways for transporting about half of its coal, so when Operation Starvation got going, things got pretty rough energy-wise).

Random fun fact - the UK actually had a coal shortage during WW2 (some trains, both in the UK and Africa/India were converted to oil burning because of it), because of the lack of available manpower to dig the coal up (one of oil's many benefits was that it required less manpower to both extract and use) - so modelling coal properly in the game would probably require modelling it's heavy reliance on manpower as well.

 

[rich911]

It was something I missed from HOI 3, it's more realistic & hands on … I like the sound of the proposed update.

 

[Dwarf892]

snip

actually about half of the Royal Navy ships were still coal burners at the start of the war. However, as the war progressed they were quickly switched over to oil and by the end, except for a few unimportant ships, were oil burners. Late 1940 to 43 was a very busy time for re-fitters because quite few ships were waaaay over due for a refit (the Queen Elizabeth class BB is a good example of this). The reason for this was refits are very expensive and time consuming to do and they hoped they could just run the time limit out on the hull then scrape the ship & replace the it with a newer class. the only plus side to refits is, depending on size of the refit, they're quicker and less expensive (not always) to do then trying to build new ship from the keel up.

Side Note: Speaking of refits....please include the possibility of doing refits for ships in HOI4, you can already do it to tanks & planes. why not ships? (if the devs have already discuss this, please excuse me as I do not read every dev blog)

 

[Axe99]

actually about half of the Royal Navy ships were still coal burners at the start of the war. However, as the war progressed they were quickly switched over to oil and by the end, except for a few unimportant ships, were oil burners. Late 1940 to 43 was a very busy time for re-fitters because quite few ships were waaaay over due for a refit (the Queen Elizabeth class BB is a good example of this). The reason for this was refits are very expensive and time consuming to do and they hoped they could just run the time limit out on the hull then scrape the ship & replace the it with a newer class. the only plus side to refits is, depending on size of the refit, they're quicker and less expensive (not always) to do then trying to build new ship from the keel up.

Side Note: Speaking of refits....please include the possibility of doing refits for ships in HOI4, you can already do it to tanks & planes. why not ships? (if the devs have already discuss this, please excuse me as I do not read every dev blog)

I don't mean to sound harsh here (I'm just going with the facts, based mainly on the sources mentioned below), but:

• The Queen Elizabeth (and Revenge) classes were built as oil burners from the get-go - they burned oil in WW1, and they burned oil in WW2. This information isn't arcane knowledge (no need for the many books on British Battleships), it's available on wikipedia.
• The last class of coal-burning destroyer built for the RN* (go and make me look this up why don't you Not that I mind looking at these things ) by date of building were the Faulknor-class flotilla leaders, the last of which saw service in the RN in 1920. The last class of coal-burning light cruiser were the Birmingham class, one of which did survive in Australian (but not RN) service in 1936 (HMAS Adelaide). Three out of four of the first class of CAs built for the RN (the Hawkins class) were dual-burners, but the only ship surviving that was still a CA that had been a dual-burner (HMS Hawkins) was converted to burn oil-only in 1929 (see list of changes here). The RN did actually experiment with steam-driven submarines in WW1 (the K class) but these used oil - afaik, there were no coal-driven submarines in service in the RN at any time. In terms of aircraft carriers, Argus and Hermes burned coal from the get-go, while Eagle started as a dual-burner but she was converted to burning oil only (it's not entirely clear when from online sources, but Aircraft Carriers of the World dates her re-boilering to 1931-32).
• All new-build ships for the RN laid down post-WW1 that are in HoI4 were oil burners only. You can go through Navypedia to check if you think I'm telling fibs .

I'd be interested to know where you got your impression of half of the RN's ships still being oil-burners at the start of the war (or even on 1 Jan 1936, the start of the game). It's inconsistent with any of the books I've read on this kind of thing (from Conways All the World's Fighting Ships 1906-1921 and 1922-1946, to Whitley's books on WW2 Cruisers, Destroyers and Battleships, Chesneau's book on Aircraft Carriers mentioned above, or Bagnasco's book on WW2 submarines, as well as with the likes of Navypedia (which, while not perfect, is very good). The only remaining coal burners that I'm aware of (but I may have missed some, this is going from memory, I haven't gone through all the smaller ships comprehensively) were Iron Duke (mentioned above), a handful (nine) of the old WW1 flower-class escorts, and all bar one of the remaining Insect class river gunboats (another nine ships). Even if these ships, none of which are part of HoI4, were included, it's a long, long way from half the RN's ships in Sep 1939.

1940-1943 were busy times for refitters (although iirc mainly to improve radar, ASW and AA, as well as adding degaussing equipment), and like you mention QE was modernised, but she didn't need converting to burning oil, she was doing that at the Battle of Jutland.

It is the case that during WW2 the RN built some coal-burning ships during the interwar period and WW2 - primarily the Basset, Tree, Dance, Shakespearian, Isles, Hills, Round Table, Fish and Military class trawlers - but these are all well below the size of ship covered in HoI4.

* As opposed to a handful of coal-burning ships being built for foreign powers that were requisitioned by the RN during WW1, like the Birkenhead class CLs - note that none of these ships were in service in 1936 (or anywhere close to it) either.

 

[Wraith11B]

Gosh, I was about to go off but you've handled it beautifully...

 

[Easterling]

It is the case that during WW2 the RN built some coal-burning ships during the interwar period and WW2 - primarily the Basset, Tree, Dance, Shakespearian, Isles, Hills, Round Table, Fish and Military class trawlers - but these are all well below the size of ship covered in HoI4

There we go, coal burning convoys confirmed

 

[Axe99]

There we go, coal burning convoys confirmed

Haha Actually, at least in the British merchant marine, I think it was about the same coal as it was oil, with some diesel scattered in amongst it, although it's been a while since I read that - I just remembered thinking they'd all be coal, and was surprised to learn around half weren't.

 

[Easterling]

Haha Actually, at least in the British merchant marine, I think it was about the same coal as it was oil, with some diesel scattered in amongst it, although it's been a while since I read that - I just remembered thinking they'd all be coal, and was surprised to learn around half weren't.

What I found on wikipedia, which sorta checks out if you cross reference and search for the quote:
"The majority of the British Merchant Navy comprised coal burning general cargo steamers trading deep sea (across the globe) and had a crew of 40 to 50. A diesel engine motor tanker averaged a crew of 44 and a small coastal collier might only have a crew of a dozen."

 

[Axe99]

What I found on wikipedia, which sorta checks out if you cross reference and search for the quote:
"The majority of the British Merchant Navy comprised coal burning general cargo steamers trading deep sea (across the globe) and had a crew of 40 to 50. A diesel engine motor tanker averaged a crew of 44 and a small coastal collier might only have a crew of a dozen."

There we go - it may well have been that the British merchant marine was a bit more coal-oriented, sorry for my dodgy memory . I've dug through my notes, and the quote I was thinking of (which I'd assumed was British, as the book it's from is about British Oil Management and Administration in WW2, but it turns out to be for everyone - and also diesel was a lot more important too!)

By 1937 half the world’s merchant tonnage was oil-fuelled, with 45 per cent, of these oil ships powered by marine diesel engines12" (from "Oil. A Study of War-time Policy and Administration" by D J Payton - Smith, loc 1174)

 

[Machabeli]

Oh come on! why did you guys remove oil as a resource? ;(

 

[Denkt]

Oh come on! why did you guys remove oil as a resource? ;(

They did not remove oil as a resource but changed how it work but oil is still a resource in the game.

 

[Machabeli]

They did not remove oil as a resource but changed how it work but oil is still a resource in the game.

So you can still see it on the map and stuff? like in designated areas for example.

 

[Denkt]

So you can still see it on the map and stuff? like in designated areas for example.

Yes, oil is the same a Before, just the useage have changed but you do still trade oil and it is still on the map.

 

[Machabeli]

Yes, oil is the same a Before, just the useage have changed but you do still trade oil and it is still on the map.

Oh good to know. haha for a second there i got scared thinking they had completely removed Oil as a resource.