HOI4 Dev Diary - Acclimatization and Special Forces

[paranoidsteve]

Am I correct in understanding that if a division (or corps) gets fully acclimatized, say to the desert, then move into a cold type climate, they have to reacclimatize to their new weather conditions . Nice. If they then get returned to the desert conditions are they still fully acclimatized to the conditions?

 

[Secret Master]

Again realistic but how often will it ever be a real factor of any type?

Even if your units are not acclimatized to either arctic or desert, they still need time to acclimatize to either arctic or desert. If they are acclimatized to the wrong thing, it just takes longer.

I suspect that if podcat's statements are what I think they are, it will be easier for some countries, in some situations, to acclimatize faster than an invader. That might make a difference during a historical Barbarossa that runs on too long or if Bagration starts too late.

 

[Leinad965]

So new strategy will be to invade Norway as Germany and put there the whole army before Barbarossa begins?

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

Nice additional features. Especially like how the future harsher weather penalties can be somewhat offset by acclimatization.

... One option is to train your special forces harder, to improve their skills and their ability to fight for longer before having to be resupplied. The other option is to expand the special forces training programs to accept more recruits. Your special forces will be more numerous, but come with more drag and not quite as high speed.

I would hope that the special forces units are given a higher starting training level than the regular units. I realize the existing mechanics don't accommodate this very well. Maybe the above "more drag and not quite as high speed" reference ties into that. But if they could start with trained (instead of green) and could be trained up to seasoned (instead of trained) it would nicely reflect their status as elite troops.

 

[Galithor]

Its not artic and desert. It's hot and cold. The weather modifiers arent terrain specific. Acclimitization is for the weather modifiers, specifically the temperature modifiers.

 

[Nodfor]

Up till now, we have had a bit of a balance issue with Special Forces (Marines, Mountaineers, Paratroopers). They were, pound for pound, better than regular infantry and many people simply replaced all their infantry with mountaineers.

Remove Special Forces Advisor from the game, increase production cost/training time for special forces, have units who change template to SF lose more experience - problem solved.

You could also make it to cost less army exp to replace infantry with SF and vice versa in the division template designer, so players will be actually able to have several divisions templates to use.

No need to put these artificial restrictions of 5% - which are currently extreme. With a 24 batallion initial limit, you can't even fill an 80 combat width battle with 14/4s.
A % limit on paratroopers would be understandable, but certainly not on SF in general.

 

[LiberiusX]

I can’t wait for some cornflakes

 

[telesien]

That is kind of nice addition, but unless this expansion also solves some of the major issues - like submarine warfare - I will consider it painting over crumbling building and waste of limited resources

 

[ttg_96]

Why not give some starting acclimatization to units that train in a specific region.

 

[Euroflink]

How are the Indian unit models changed in winter? To my knowledge, the current Indian models in the game wear summer uniforms with khaki shorts and all. How are the Australian and South African unit models changed in winter also? Their models have clothing that is suited for the great bush of their respective countries. Thanks!

 

[Sourlol]

As others have said, this likely wont be something I consider too often (beyond not moving forces in the Desert to the Eastern front). However it is a good passive balance tool.

Unless the AI has an issue of moving divisions in Libya to go support October operations in Ukraine, there isn't much they will need to consider.

For players, it is a small incentive to get forces on borders earlier. It is an incentive to keep forces theater bound. It is even a small incentive against deleting your divisions at the beginning of the game.

The SF changes are great, makes them actually feel 'special' as opposed to better. I do worry about countries like Romania and Italy. Their core territory is especially mountainous. I could see a 5-10% increase for countries with >X% portion of core territory as hills or mountains. I would like a requirement of core territory on the ocean for marines.

However, whether the figure is the current proposed 5% or my suggested upper limit of 15%, there would still be that element of choice. Through commander skills all Italian infantry will get bonuses to hill/mountain fighting. The mountaineers will need to be strategically placed in the most threatened mountain tiles.

I take a little bit of issue with the idea of Jungle SF and Desert SF.. The US set up a jungle warfare school after pearl harbor in Hawaii. The chindits and their expansion into a division are the only other specially *trained* jungle fighters i could find of the war. Most of the Jungle fighting was conducted by regulars who only learned how to effectively fight in the jungle by doing it.

Similarly for the Desert, weren't those standard infantry who learned desert tactics once in theater?

I think we need to be careful in the overlap between what paradox is trying to do with generals/Field Marshal progression and unit production.

All that said, and this may be a bit on the BICE side of things, and I realize the AI would be a limiting factor, but SF Arty/AT/AA/Support Equipment would be great. Basically, I want the line and support Guns for SF divisions to require not only inf eq, manpower, and the guns, but also SF Support Equipment. The guns used in mountain warfare, brought in for amphibious invasion of an island, and paradropped, were different and often smaller than their infantry counterparts. That should be represented. Outfitting your SF troops for their niche roles should be more expensive per man.

 

[Gort11]

So new strategy will be to invade Norway as Germany and put there the whole army before Barbarossa begins?

Yeah, I thought this too.

 

[Shaka of Carthage]

No need to put these artificial restrictions of 5% - which are currently extreme. With a 24 batallion initial limit, you can't even fill an 80 combat width battle with 14/4s.
A % limit on paratroopers would be understandable, but certainly not on SF in general.

They are "extreme" because you can't create the same number of special forces type divisions that you currently can have? That's kinda the point. You aren't supposed to have 14/4 special forces units running around. Not everyone is qualified to become a paratrooper, marine or mountaineer. One of the reasons there are such high attrition rates when people attempt to join those type of units.

Though lets be clear. Even though we are using terms like "special forces", "elites", etc, we must remember we are not talking about what those terms mean today. These are not SEALs, SAS, etc. They are just specialized, better than normal infantry.

 

[a_sophist]

I like the changes in theory as they add some realism and flavor, but from a single player perspective I'm afraid of acclimatization being another impediment to already bad fascist major AI. In most of my games (regular difficulty, non-historical) the German and Italian AI is running out of manpower in 41/42 due to bad division spam and its seemingly non-existent understanding of supply and attrition, and that's even if they last that long after stretching themselves over too many fronts. I'd be curious to know how many (if any) AI-only simulations were run with the climate changes to see if the AI even cares.

With the special forces changes, I now want to play Japan even less than I already do, since the overwhelming majority of their combat is in terrain suited for marines and mountaineers, and paradropping to secure a UK port has a much higher opportunity cost now, aside from being flat out more difficult with only a handful of battalions. Even with techs increasing the % of SF, the first few years of the game are essential for non-democratic nations to become able to project force, and it's way harder now. I don't mind increased difficulty per se, but I would prefer it in the form of competent AI.

 

[Bonelord]

What about attrition for cavalry units? For now cavalry has no specfic debuffs tied to weather.
Summer in 1939 was known to be one of the driest in Europe: wells were empty, so there was not enough water for horses, what we could see in September Campaign in Poland. So not only on desert but also in european climate.

 

[Idle America]

I love it!

A bit disappointed that there still isn't new special force types, though. Such as rangers (forest/jungle) or desert fighters.

They'll probably add those at a later time, for terrain-specific troops. For now, they're focusing on climates, which they can expand from later. This is the first step towards the Rangers and the Desert Rats!

 

[jamesd]

The whole idea of the research system is to make you prioritize and make choices.

I calculated a long time ago that it was not possible for Germany to get all its historical research completed by the end of the war. It took the addition of more starting techs and a 5th starting tech slot to get there. With the addition of more techs that shortfall is likely to be even greater. Just to be clear, I wasn't allowing for Germany to research all techs, but a reasonable estimate based on 25 years of wargaming and studying WW2. There's still plenty of choices about priorities.

 

[Idle America]

Will nations have modifiers for acclimatization? Things like "Russian Winters" and "Australian Outback," maybe less powerful yet more balanced for nations like the United States and the colonial powers, due to having ready access to multiple environments?

Bundle up, lads; it's gonna get chilly!

 

[Meglok]

Acclimatization - hmm, ok. Added realism. More micro incoming. More stretching of research points. Really hope this doesn't mess with game balance too much as far as attrition. The AI already has enough issues equipping the divisions it insists upon deploying.

atm we dont have any country special bonuses, but we havent really finished balancing this so we may add something. Will tweet if so

Capping Special Troops - Really have some qualms about this unless certain nations have larger cap percentages. Just leveling an arbitrary across the board cap is not optimal. Numerous nations created large special forces in relation to their overall forces due to needs or terrain in their strategic area.

Will this be the last blow to JAPs already minimalized chances vs CHI?

depends on how and if you need force concentration. Note that limit is on battalions not divisions so having big divisions will use up your cap fast

Getting worried about JAP-CHI balance, and Japanese overall balance also. Preventing Japan from fielding more than 5% Marines or 5% Mountain in 1937 is really going to affect balance in China. No way Japan can afford to research her way around that in 18 months. And a Japan that doesn't occupy China by 1939 in HOI4 is of minimal threat or consequence.

Always thought HOI4 was trying to be a balanced gsg based upon WW2, not a gsg trying to recreate WW2.

 

[Jeankazuhiza]

Simply amazing! I'm looking forward to meet the special soldiers of the minors who will fight regardless if it's under a scorching sun or a merciless blizzard!

Now, speaking of the Warlords, i'm eager to learn from them, next week...