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HoI 4 Dev Diary - Border Wars: The Last Warlord

Hello from the frozen wasteland wrapped in eternal darkness that is Sweden in December!


In the base game, the Chinese Warlords lead a rather silly existence. They exist at game start, work was clearly done to make them playable (at least as playable as any country with a generic focus tree), and when the war with Japan starts and things could get interesting - they are swallowed up by Nationalist China.


That means there is little use for the Nationalist player to really interact with them, since they are going to be absorbed anyway when the war starts. This made the Nationalists' situation quite a bit easier than it was historically. So in order to really represent the problems the Nationalists faced, we had to make the Warlords a bit more dynamic - and while doing that, we also made them a bit more interesting to play.


It’ll still be possible for the Nationalist player to unite the country and take over the warlords - it will just take effort and resources that the Nationalist player may or may not be able to spare.

warlords_tree.JPG


We still knew that the Warlords tree would be a bit of a sideshow, so we decided that all 5 warlords (Shanxi, Xibei San Ma, Sinkiang, Yunnan, Guanxi Clique) would get the same focus tree, and that it would be somewhat smaller than what we would do for a normal country (instead of a splinter region).

However, we also wanted the player to be able to make a difference and not be stuck with the rather small and restricted warlords focus tree forever. The core idea behind the focus tree is therefore to give the warlords a way to win the struggle for supremacy in China, take over national leadership, and ultimately gain access to the full Nationalist or Communist Focus Trees. This turns them into more fully-fledged contenders in the Chinese Civil War.

Capture_warlord_leader.JPG


To do this, you have three basic options: you cooperate with the Nationalists, side with the Communists, or you strike out on your own (with an option to approach Japan later).

If you decide to ally with the Nationalists (as most warlords are scripted to do in historical mode), you get to build up your realm a little and fix some of the problems in the administration. Once your powerbase is secure, you can decide to join the political struggle and make a play for the leadership of China in the political sphere.

Capture_warlords_political_struggle.JPG


This uses the same mechanics we have outlined in the Dev Diary about Communist China, and if a political power struggle between Nationalists and Communists is already ongoing, a warlord will simply join into the struggle. If you win the struggle, and claim national leadership, your focus tree will then switch to the Nationalist Chinese focus tree.

Capture_warlords_takeover.JPG


Siding with the Communists starts out very similar, but the end game is different: instead of joining the political struggle directly, you appeal to the bigger Communist: Stalin. Getting the support of the Soviet Union won’t come cheap, though, and there is no guarantee that whoever leads the Communist party of China is willing to just accept you taking over. Should you succeed, you will be able to annex Communist China, giving you their troops as well as their focus tree. But beware: Stalin will come to collect his due.

Capture_warlord_stalin.JPG


Lastly, the option to strike out on your own is clearly the most difficult of all, making an enemy out of both sides - but it offers you the chance to claim China as your own, without having to make compromises. While you can try to make a deal with the Japanese, there is no guarantee that they will accept, and in any event you would only be trading one overlord for another. This approach also blocks off any chance of joining the political struggle inside China, meaning that you will have to fight for it.


However, since facing the nationalist armies in the field may be a bit too much despite all their many weaknesses, we have decided to expand on Border Wars a bit, giving independent-minded warlords a way to expand some territory while keeping the risk manageable.


Border conflicts start with someone staging an incident between two states (yes... they have to border each other). This costs some PP and fires an event notifying them that they need to position troops or risk losing control of the state.

hoi4_2.png


After a bit of time has passed, whoever staged the incident gets a decision to escalate the situation further. If this decision is left alone for too long the incident is forgotten and nothing more happens.

hoi4_4.png


To escalate the incident to a border conflict the instigator needs to place troops on the border and select the decision. Divisions from the two states start fighting in a limited form of combat with special rules such as terrain giving less bonus, lower combat width and so on. The country that first initiated the incident is considered the attacker.

hoi4_2 (1).png


The fighting will continue for a good amount of time, and if no one has emerged victorious by the time it runs out the conflict is considered to be a stalemate. This awards both sides with a bit of army experience and the defender with some PP for having successfully defended the territory. This is sort of a soft loss for the attacker, but does not come at a major cost other than the PP wasted on initiating the entire incident.


If the attacker wins the conflict, they seize control of the state and are awarded PP for their success. If the defender wins they gain a lot of PP, army experience and research bonus to land doctrine. All of the outcome effects are scriptable and there is a good chance we will add, tweak, or change them after more play testing.

hoi4_8.png


Both attacker and defender can choose to escalate the conflict further at the cost of addition PP. Doing so gives a combat bonus, allow more troops to join the fighting and pushes the conflict to the brink of all out war. Both sides can back down at this point, but this results in losing the border conflict. It might however be worth taking a loss over an all-out war you cannot hope to win.

If any of the sides chooses to escalate the conflict further, the other side will be notified and not long after, war breaks out.

Next week is going to be a Christmas special with some cool stuff for modders.

Due to an important company-wide conference that is not in any way connected to the release of a new movie from a well-known sci-fi franchise, the stream will be at 14:00 CET today. Tune in at https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive and watch the Kaiser restore order in Germany!
 
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With that border conflict mechanics I'm looking forward Rheinland being changed so that France doesn't necessarily commit her entire army against the whopping 3 battalions the Germans [historically] relocated inside their own territory, lol!
 
I thought it meant revealing the release date. But maybe not.
I think it was most likely about the topic of the next dev diary, which is (probably?) Volunteer Air Group. But of course, a release date would be great.
 
Good looking stuff!
 
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I think it was most likely about the topic of the next dev diary, which is (probably?) Volunteer Air Group. But of course, a release date would be great.
Now that I think about it, I recall it being said somewhere that the DLC will feature volunteer air units, so yeah, likely that.

Here's hoping they'd replace the current unrealistic volunteer system where everyone can spam division and even corps sized volunteers everywhere with something more historically plausible. The Corpo Truppe Volontarie and División Azul and certain ahistorical but plausible large volunteer formations could be handled with mechanics within more reasonable boundaries. They probably won't change it though.
 
Like the way a national focus tree can change into a new focus tree. This could be great if communist puppets could get their own new focus trees, create a communist puppet then you get a generic communust puppet tree instead of the generic one.
 
If you decide to ally with the Nationalists (as most warlords are scripted to do in historical mode), you get to build up your realm a little and fix some of the problems in the administration. Once your powerbase is secure, you can decide to join the political struggle and make a play for the leadership of China in the political sphere.

index.php


This uses the same mechanics we have outlined in the Dev Diary about Communist China, and if a political power struggle between Nationalists and Communists is already ongoing, a warlord will simply join into the struggle. If you win the struggle, and claim national leadership, your focus tree will then switch to the Nationalist Chinese focus tree.

@Archangel85, or @podcat. just to clarify.. whereas it makes perfect sense for the Yan'an-based Mao-commies to try to set up covert party cells in e.g Beijing or Shanghai ("Build support in Beijing"), you cannot seriously mean that the warlord of Yunnan will be able to send a delegation of minions to Beijing and be able to actually build enough support to flip Beijing? Communists should be able to go everywhere and do that due to communism as a populist ideology with an enormous popular appeal among the poor and downtrodden in the 20th century. A warlord's personality cult should IMO be restricted to states neighboring his realm. Sending you best men 2000 kilometer away to brag to urbanites about your skillz as a rural strongman should not be something that can pay off, not even once in a thousand tries. (In the honest opinion of yours truly).
 
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Hello from the frozen wasteland wrapped in eternal darkness that is Sweden in December!


In the base game, the Chinese Warlords lead a rather silly existence. They exist at game start, work was clearly done to make them playable (at least as playable as any country with a generic focus tree), and when the war with Japan starts and things could get interesting - they are swallowed up by Nationalist China.


That means there is little use for the Nationalist player to really interact with them, since they are going to be absorbed anyway when the war starts. This made the Nationalists' situation quite a bit easier than it was historically. So in order to really represent the problems the Nationalists faced, we had to make the Warlords a bit more dynamic - and while doing that, we also made them a bit more interesting to play.


It’ll still be possible for the Nationalist player to unite the country and take over the warlords - it will just take effort and resources that the Nationalist player may or may not be able to spare.

View attachment 320773

We still knew that the Warlords tree would be a bit of a sideshow, so we decided that all 5 warlords (Shanxi, Xibei San Ma, Sinkiang, Yunnan, Guanxi Clique) would get the same focus tree, and that it would be somewhat smaller than what we would do for a normal country (instead of a splinter region).

However, we also wanted the player to be able to make a difference and not be stuck with the rather small and restricted warlords focus tree forever. The core idea behind the focus tree is therefore to give the warlords a way to win the struggle for supremacy in China, take over national leadership, and ultimately gain access to the full Nationalist or Communist Focus Trees. This turns them into more fully-fledged contenders in the Chinese Civil War.

View attachment 320779

To do this, you have three basic options: you cooperate with the Nationalists, side with the Communists, or you strike out on your own (with an option to approach Japan later).

If you decide to ally with the Nationalists (as most warlords are scripted to do in historical mode), you get to build up your realm a little and fix some of the problems in the administration. Once your powerbase is secure, you can decide to join the political struggle and make a play for the leadership of China in the political sphere.

View attachment 320776

This uses the same mechanics we have outlined in the Dev Diary about Communist China, and if a political power struggle between Nationalists and Communists is already ongoing, a warlord will simply join into the struggle. If you win the struggle, and claim national leadership, your focus tree will then switch to the Nationalist Chinese focus tree.

View attachment 320778

Siding with the Communists starts out very similar, but the end game is different: instead of joining the political struggle directly, you appeal to the bigger Communist: Stalin. Getting the support of the Soviet Union won’t come cheap, though, and there is no guarantee that whoever leads the Communist party of China is willing to just accept you taking over. Should you succeed, you will be able to annex Communist China, giving you their troops as well as their focus tree. But beware: Stalin will come to collect his due.

View attachment 320777

Lastly, the option to strike out on your own is clearly the most difficult of all, making an enemy out of both sides - but it offers you the chance to claim China as your own, without having to make compromises. While you can try to make a deal with the Japanese, there is no guarantee that they will accept, and in any event you would only be trading one overlord for another. This approach also blocks off any chance of joining the political struggle inside China, meaning that you will have to fight for it.


However, since facing the nationalist armies in the field may be a bit too much despite all their many weaknesses, we have decided to expand on Border Wars a bit, giving independent-minded warlords a way to expand some territory while keeping the risk manageable.


Border conflicts start with someone staging an incident between two states (yes... they have to border each other). This costs some PP and fires an event notifying them that they need to position troops or risk losing control of the state.

View attachment 320782

After a bit of time has passed, whoever staged the incident gets a decision to escalate the situation further. If this decision is left alone for too long the incident is forgotten and nothing more happens.

View attachment 320783

To escalate the incident to a border conflict the instigator needs to place troops on the border and select the decision. Divisions from the two states start fighting in a limited form of combat with special rules such as terrain giving less bonus, lower combat width and so on. The country that first initiated the incident is considered the attacker.

View attachment 320785

The fighting will continue for a good amount of time, and if no one has emerged victorious by the time it runs out the conflict is considered to be a stalemate. This awards both sides with a bit of army experience and the defender with some PP for having successfully defended the territory. This is sort of a soft loss for the attacker, but does not come at a major cost other than the PP wasted on initiating the entire incident.


If the attacker wins the conflict, they seize control of the state and are awarded PP for their success. If the defender wins they gain a lot of PP, army experience and research bonus to land doctrine. All of the outcome effects are scriptable and there is a good chance we will add, tweak, or change them after more play testing.

View attachment 320784

Both attacker and defender can choose to escalate the conflict further at the cost of addition PP. Doing so gives a combat bonus, allow more troops to join the fighting and pushes the conflict to the brink of all out war. Both sides can back down at this point, but this results in losing the border conflict. It might however be worth taking a loss over an all-out war you cannot hope to win.

If any of the sides chooses to escalate the conflict further, the other side will be notified and not long after, war breaks out.

Next week, we will answer the critical question of what exactly the airspeed velocity of an unladen tiger is.

Due to an important company-wide conference that is not in any way connected to the release of a new movie from a well-known sci-fi franchise, the stream will be at 14:00 CET today. Tune in at https://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive and watch the Kaiser restore order in Germany!

Question:

If you go the third option, proclaim independence, and take on both Nationalists and Communists, which tree do you end up with?
 
No units render ?
I knew I forgot something! I am gonna have a whole diary showing artwork later for all the units so will get covered then I guess :)

Are the border conflict mechanics in the patch or the DLC?
Border conflicts are DLC

What would happen if a one-state warlord failed to defend himself in a border war (like, in the screenshot, Yunnan) , annexed?
Right now they get annexed, but we are still messing about with this. It would be logical to escalate to full war here, but since effects can be almost anything you can also have other effects in this case if we want to make sure those nations dont go away (transfers of industry etc etc)

Question , will the other countries of the game (such as Austria-Hungary, Yugoslavia, Germany, etc) be able to provoke incident and potentially make landgrabs?

We are keeping it asia only for now. I can see us maybe using it elsewhere in the future though.
 
This update is shaping up to be a really cool one. So many good games to play lately (many of them from PDX) that I haven't had time for HOI4 for a while.
Definitely will play again after the update drops. Many new things to try.
 
So Archangel posts the dev diary, but if you want dev reply, you have to tag @podcat. Was I supposed to know that? Since you are "messing about with this", please consider my bitching on the topic, posted above. Sincerely yours.
 
Right now they get annexed, but we are still messing about with this. It would be logical to escalate to full war here, but since effects can be almost anything you can also have other effects in this case if we want to make sure those nations dont go away (transfers of industry etc etc)
Well I agree that a full war with some debuff for the defender is more reasonable.
 
Next week, we will answer the critical question of what exactly the airspeed velocity of an unladen tiger is.
At 56 tons, it depends on the height it's dropped from - I think we can mostly ignore friction due to the air... ;):p
 
Question , will the other countries of the game (such as Austria-Hungary, Yugoslavia, Germany, etc) be able to provoke incident and potentially make landgrabs?

We are keeping it asia only for now. I can see us maybe using it elsewhere in the future

Next week is going to be a Christmas special with some cool stuff for modders.
Note that I updated the next week peak as its was wrong. the above is our plan :)


@Archangel85, or @podcat. just to clarify.. whereas it makes perfect sense for the Yan'an-based Mao-commies to try to set up covert party cells in e.g Beijing or Shanghai ("Build support in Beijing"), you cannot seriously mean that the warlord of Yunnan will be able to send a delegation of minions to Beijing and be able to actually build enough support to flip Beijing? Communists should be able to go everywhere and do that due to communism as a populist ideology with an enormous popular appeal among the poor and downtrodden in the 20th century. A warlord's personality cult should IMO be restricted to states neighboring his realm. Sending you best men 2000 kilometer away to brag to urbanites about your skillz as a rural strongman should not be something that can pay off, not even once in a thousand tries. (In the honest opinion of yours truly).

Note that Beijing is locked. You need to get more support elsewhere before you can do anything there