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HoI 4 - Dev Diary: America Rework

Hello, and welcome back to another dev diary! Today we are going to talk about Freedom. Freedom from Fear. Freedom from Want. Freedom from having to vote for a presidential candidate every four years.


The vanilla US focus tree offered some interesting alternate-history scenarios, but if you wanted to play historical, you pretty much sat around doing very little until the war started. Part of this is the fundamental design problem of the US in a historical grand-strategy game: if we allow the US to freely enter the war when it has even a fraction of its historical economy, the Axis never makes it into Paris and the war ends in 1940. If we restrict the US from entering the war freely until its historical date, the US player sits around until late 1941 doing very little (there is a reason why my usual go-to scenario in HoI2 and HoI3 was “Play France until you lose, then switch to the US”).


usa_focus_devdiary.jpg



So one of the goals we had for this rework was to give the player a bit more stuff to actually do during the lead-up to the war. Making the path out of the depression a little more involved was an obvious place to start. Instead of a single national spirit, it is now three levels that give a smoother curve out of the depression. But instead of just taking three focuses in a row to do what could previously be done in one, we wanted the player to have to work a lot more to get out of the depression.


Enter the script-based Congress Mechanic. The Congress mechanic is - for now - unique to the US and simulates the shifting majorities in both houses of Congress. It ties into a lot of things that we will get into in a bit. But on a fundamental level, taking the focuses that reduce the penalties from the great depression will require you to have a majority in both houses, but will also reduce your support once you have taken it to simulate members of Congress who voted for the proposal being unwilling to support you further without getting something in return.


picture_us_congress.JPG



You can gain and lose support from random events as well as midterm and presidential elections. Generally speaking, going with the incumbent means you are more likely to lose support in Congress in the election, and if the situation is particularly dire, going with the challenger will flip support and opposition. Beyond this, a number of decisions allow you to gain support in congress, from simple lobbying to bribing members of Congress by investing in their constituencies to just regularly bribing them.


picture_us_build_factory.JPG



Besides getting out of the depression, you’ll also need to get Congress to sign off on the Selective Service Act, which is the gatekeeper focus of the army modernization branch, and the Two Ocean Navy Act, which is the gatekeeper focus for the naval branch. The amount of support you need depends on your war support (in general, you can assume that every focus with “Act” somewhere in its title ties into the Congress mechanic).


Another aspect we wanted to add was to give the US player a choice to become more active in the world earlier. As I said above, that comes with host of issues. We want it to be a viable option, but not a no-brainer. This means that there will be a number of restrictions in the “Limited Intervention” branch. First, you’ll have to have enough support in Congress to take the focus (and a lack of war support means that quite a few member of Congress will break ranks over it). Afterwards, you will have to choose between focusing your efforts on preparing to intervene in Europe or in Asia. Taking either of these focuses unlocks a number of decisions to try and build public support for an intervention. Many of these decisions are tied to events around the world - here the US is protesting the Anschluss.


picture_us_anschluss.JPG



However, there is only a small window to utilize these events. Each decision adds something that is internally called an “intervention strike” as in “three strikes and you’re out”, except in this case it’s “three strikes and we start bombing”. A generic decision allows to build support against a target if they do not have specific decisions associated with them. Finally, once a country has two strikes against them, you can petition congress to sanction an intervention, which will again require significant support (it is easier to gain a wargoal against a country that is at war, and easier still if they are in an aggressive war).


This will likely make it harder for you to pursue your other goals - so if you want to intervene in Europe on behalf of the Allies, you will most likely have to forego economic reforms, at least for a while.


The intervention mandates are also used to allow the US to intervene in the Americas if someone violates the Monroe doctrine.


Intervention in general is something you can prepare a lot better now by using war plans. Completing the focuses unlocks a decision to execute the corresponding war plan and gain a temporary bonus against a country, along with some other temporary bonuses.


us_picture_war_plan.jpg



Of course, by this point a statistical majority of you might wonder why you even bother with all this busy-work, bribing senators, cutting deals with representatives, when there is a world to be won. As promised, we also wanted to add proper alternate ideology branches for the US. As we said many months ago in the Dev Diary about South Africa, we also look to try and open up new areas of the map for warfare, to allow you to fight in different areas than trudging across the same old parts of Europe.


So we wanted to have a nice big Civil War in the US. We want tank battles south of Chicago. Naval landings in Florida. A brutal slog across the Rocky Mountains. So we decided to not just put in one civil war but two! That’s a whole 100% MORE CIVIL WAR!


You’ll have to fight a civil war in either of the alternate ideology branches. For the curious: the branches straight down from the WPA and Adjusted Compensation Act are democratic ideology branches and will be part of the free update, the branches starting with Suspend the Prosecution and America First will be part of the DLC.


In the left branch, appropriately enough, you soften up your stance towards the communists. You can do this even if you don’t intend to go fully communist, as it opens up new ways of gaining support in Congress. If you do decide to be more radical, you can desegregate the American society, which will trigger protests from the usual suspects. The protests by themselves don’t do anything, but if you decide to push harder towards communism, the protests will intensify and eventually spill over. The Unions Representation Act is another such trigger that will cause protests.


Picture_us_communists_protests.JPG



Before the civil war breaks out, there is a “Point of No Return” after which it is merely a question of time until hostilities start. In the time between the Point of No Return and the actual start of the war, you’ll get a number of events telling you how the situation develops. These events have actual effects on how your position is like at the start of the war.


For example, if an event tells you that a state has mobilized the national guard, the revolter gets a fully-equipped and quite capable division when the war starts. These events aren’t intended to make the difference between winning and losing but to give the war a bit more flavor.


Once the war starts in the communist branch, it is not quite like a regular civil war. Instead of the country and the military splitting in half, it spawns a new tag (CSA). This allows us to do a few things, like removing CSA territories as cores for the US (which means that they, for example, create resistance when conquered into). Depending on how far down you’ve gone in the communist branch, a part of the country might also declare its neutrality during the war. You can still interact with this part through decisions, but so can the other side.


picture_us_purchase_weapons.JPG



Where in other countries, a civil war is something we must be very careful with to ensure that the country is not completely crippled by the time the real war starts, here, we want ACWII to be “the war” the US gets into and which merges into the greater World War. So there are limited objectives for you after you have won the American Theater of World War II, but you can push decolonization in Asia and intervene in the Chinese Civil War, while also working to reintegrate the breakaway states.


The Civil War in the fascist branch works along similar lines. You also get a branch leading down from America First that you can use even if you don’t want to go full fascist - a sort of flirting with fascism, allowing you, for example, to investigate the opposition through the House Committee of Un-American Activities. The Voter Registration Act ensures a comfortable majority in every election, but triggers a wave of protests.


If you decide to push even further and publicly ally with the Silver Legion, you will trigger additional protests that put the country on the road to civil war. Like in the communist branch, a number of events determine what the starting position is, but the roles are reversed. Where in the communist branch, a part of the country tries to break away, in the fascist branch the country revolts against your leadership and tries to oust you from power, forcing you to fall back into a powerbase you set up in advance (you set up a powerbase in advance, right?). Parts of the country will declare in support or in opposition, leading to different front lines.


With much of the professional military on the other side, you’ll have to rely on hastily-raised militias to hold the line until you can get back on your feet. You might have to cut some deals and appeal to the locals to get them to accept that you are on their side.


picture_us_honor_confederacy.JPG



Once you have won that war, you are left with a US that is now safely fascist, which means that you are ideally poised to conquer the rest of the world. So we decided we might as well give you the focus tree to do just that. The War Powers Act lessens the stability impact of being in a war, and you can take your first steps abroad as you politely ask Canada to give you the territory between you and the Alaskan border (the event may or may not be called “Vancouver Or War!”) and politely ask Cuba to please stop being independent.


You continue in this fashion until at last you demand global hegemony and give all other majors an ultimatum to either become puppets or go to war. Along the way, you will most likely have gobbled up all the small countries that otherwise make conquering the world such a pain.


That is all for today. Next week we will be back with another look into the naval side of things.



Rejected Titles:

You will want fries with this focus tree

Making the world safe for fascism

Josh Lyman Simulator 2018

All focus trees are bigger in Texas

Communism is the right of all sentient beings

While writing this dev diary a bald eagle sat down outside the window and cried. True story.

My favourite state borders are Colorado’s

My google search history now makes me unemployable in most of the US

Fight them over here so we don’t have to fight them over there

This dev diary may contain trace amounts of political commentary

There was supposed to be a monarchist path but the Americans in the office rebelled and threw away all the tea

Team America saves the day

“Three strikes and we start bombing” would dramatically improve Baseball as a sport

https://twitter.com/alflandonlover gets the love he deserves

Actually rejected title: Make America <literally anything> Again

“Five score and two days ago our game director brought forth, upon this world, a new DLC announcement, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all gamers like American Civil Wars.”
 
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Seraphina985

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Traditionally, the top-left is associated with Marxism-Leninism and its offshoots (defined largely by being run by a powerful "vanguard party") and the bottom-left with anarchism and its offshoots (defined largely by opposition to the entire concept of a centralized or hierarchical state). Also, the bottom-left is actually the closest to the "classical" definition of libertarian (~1790-~1950 (USA) or ~1790-present (outside the Anglosphere)) - until Murray Rothbard started using the word, it had no association with free market economics, and indeed, was primarily associated with opposition to that.

Good point what I called Classical Libertarian is more Anarcho-Capitalism I guess, political terminology is always tricky though I was mostly just trying to illustrate how the only real way to get somewhat closer to reality with a simplified model like that is to plot where people, leaders, parties etc stand on the various issues as when you try to plot it on one line you can easily end up with a situation where you are plotting two parties that are polar opposites on one axis in the same place.
 

Kanaric

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You know what is also inaccurate… Trotsky being able to stage coup against Stalin, communist revolution in Japan, Hungary restoring Austria-Hungary, South Africa staging Anti-Colonial crusade etc.

I think we are past the point by now to argue what is realistic or historically accurate.
Byzantium and Holy Roman Empire should be added to this list as well.
 

BernardoAZ

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@podcat @Archangel85 You know, with the way this thread looks, I'm curious if it feels to you guys like you teacher is handing you back your paper that you worked for three months on, telling you that it's great but one or two things need to be changed, and then handing you back a document dripping with so much red ink that it looks like evidence from a murder scene. We've all had those moments, so no shame if that's the case.

More like a doctoral dissertation that you have worked on for a year dripping with five different colors of ink from your PhD committee.

However, the main reason for this post is to question/comment regarding the representation of Liberia in-game. During WW2 it was to a large extent run by the Firestone Natural Rubber Company solely for the purposes of providing rubber to the Allies, which I think would be better represented by having it be a colony-level puppet of the US. Has any consideration been given to implementing this?

That is an excellent idea.

Related to that is the US involvement in Puerto Penasco, Mexico. Puerto Penasco is on the north shore of the Sea of Cortez, 100 kilometres (62 mi) from the border with Arizona. During WWII the US government built a paved road to Puerto Penasco, Mexico and informed the Mexican government that if Japan landed in southern California (especially San Diego) the US would request that Mexico make do a sort of "lend-lease": the US would lease Puerto Penasco as a supply hub and lend Mexico money (in other words, the US would seize it.)

Especially since there has never been an American flag with 49 or 51 stars on it.

There was a 49 star flag, from July 4, 1959 to July 4, 1960.
http://www.usflag.org/the.49.star.flag.html

I have read all 502 comments before posting the following idea for the developers (or possibly a group of modders). Vyshan’s post (#208) is exceptionally accurate and insightful.

One of the problems in most WWII simulations is that politics is generally viewed as a single dimension consisting of three boxes: Communist – Democratic – Fascist. Adding Unaligned was a step in the right direction but doesn’t go far enough.

What follows is not a suggestion that I expect to see implemented in MtG. It is an idea for a future DLC (or possibly for inclusion in Victoria 3) or a large mod. It could be included in a large DLC that moves the start of the game back to 1933 or 1929. Adding this depth to politics should have lower priority than fixing the AI, addressing air combat, improving research and adding in espionage.

(Maybe I should play Democracy 3 more and HOI4 less.)

A frequently mentioned issue in the previous 502 comments is that the terms "Communist", "Fascist" and "Democratic" do not exactly fit many nations.

So here is my idea: the current political ideology of Communist, Fascist, Democratic and Unaligned could be replaced with a more complex, non-labeled system. My thought for something somewhat easy to introduce is to have three distinct dimensions on scales from 1 to 5.

“Individual Freedom”: Authoritarian (1) – Bounded Freedom (3) – Libertarian (5)

“Economic Freedom”: State Economy (1) – Mixed Economy (3) – Market Economy (5)

“Minority Freedom”: Majority Supremacy (1) – Segregation (“Separate But Equal”) (3) – Integration (5)

“Minority Freedom” concerns ethnicity, religion and language. In the 1930-1940 period it could apply to Jews in Jews in Germany and Italy; African-Americans and Native Peoples (or American Indians) in the USA, Spanish speakers in the southwest of the USA, Flemish speakers in Belgium, French speakers in Canada, Catholics in the Netherlands and the UK, Africans in South Africa and so forth in many nations. (It really is tragic that every nation seems to need an “Other”.)

Each province (“states” in the USA) in a nation would also have scores. Alabama might be 3,4,1. New York might be 4,4,5. Berlin might be 5,4,5. Munich might be 3,3,3. Every province in the USSR might be 1,1,4. (It would take time to figure out the scores for each province using historical voting patterns.) Part of governing would be the effect of your decisions on the provinces. Each Focus Tree and Decision choice could have attached to it three numbers, representing a change to the national Politics on the three dimensions of freedom. “Privatizing the TVA” would have a value of 0,-1,0; “Desegregation” would have a value of 0,0,2. “Empower the HUAC” would have a value of -1,1,0 (some items might have values of 0,0,0). (As this is a numeric scale there could be .5 or .1 changes.)

If there is extreme movement on one or more dimensions, then a civil war could happen, with those provinces close to the national score remain in the nation, and those who have large differences would split. It could be possible to have a nation dissolve into three parts.

As the player is now the head of a political party, they would have to navigate the variation across provinces in selecting NFs and decisions. If you go to far, you lose political support in the Congress, Parliament…

Similarity among nations in their freedom numbers would affect alliance formation. For example, a nation with a 1,1,4 would be unlikely to join an alliance with a nation with a 3,3,3, as their difference is 2,2,-1. Two nations with a 1-3-1 would likely from an alliance as their difference is 0,0,0.

This three-dimension approach frees up the NFs and decisions from having to lead to one specific ideology. A player could to some degree pick from the range of NFs and decision and not have to fall into one of the four ideologies.

This three-dimensional model could be made ridiculously complex by adding two more:

“Global Freedom”: Global Conquest (1) – Regional Security (3) - Neutrality/Isolationism (5)

“Colonial Freedom”: Expand colonies (1) – Maintain colonies (3) – National Liberation (5)

I have zero expectation that this will be done in the next two or three years by Paradox.
 

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steam pre-order plssss
 

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Byzantium and Holy Roman Empire should be added to this list as well.
You know, you can play with historical focuses on :)
 

Iskulya

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It's interesting to see that Paradox is experimenting. With the German rework in WTT, they clearly discovered a new 'formula' vastly superior to the kind of trees we saw before with TfV and DoD. This seems to represent just a direction.. we'll have to see how it works out, but I'm hopeful.

The new Congress mechanic looks interesting, I'm just worried that once the war has started it will become irrelevant. Once you are at war with who you want to be at war with, and once the depression is gone and you have the mobilization laws you want, will there be a point to it? Ideally it should provide something that is meaningful throughout the game, not just early game.

Hopefully Paradox is getting a hint here.. I used to think 1933 would be a nice addition, but now I don't really think there's any to point to it within HoI 4. We'll have to wait for a sequel. HoI 4 wasn't designed with knowledge that there was such a huge demand for alternate scenarios in terms of different ideologies and paths.

Good to see there will be "unaligned states". From a pure gameplay standpoint, this was needed. The old confederacy versus the rest of the country would have been way too one sided to be very fun. I had been wondering how they were going to balance this, but now we know. I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed that the Confederacy doesn't have its own options and that there is no possibility of a negotiated peace involving the break up of America.
 

vyshan

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Alternatively they could go back to the system they hand in previous Hearts of Iron games where you had 10 Ideologies:
  • Stalinist
  • Leninist
  • Left-Wing Radical
  • Social Democrat
  • Social Liberal
  • Market Liberal
  • Social Conservative
  • Paternal Autocrat
  • Fascist
  • National Socialists
Some may need tweaking around or given a name change, still it helped with differing different types governments that are similar. Which would be good for hoi4 to repersent rightwing non-fascist dictatorships and the whole trotsky v Stalin angle among the left. Not to mention for democracies you would have elections. I so much prefer this system over the current system.
 

Sir Garnet

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"Hail Columbia!" would be a more apposite name for demanding the British-held portion of Columbia that extends north to the Alaskan coast be reunited with the State of Washington in the south.

nstead of reviving the old slogan "54'40 or fight", revise the parallel northward for a united Columnbia.
 

vbanev

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Its all nice and cool and a sphrerical horse in vacuum when it comes to Alt History in Hoi4.

Leaving me feeling intensely frustrated aside,

When will the One obvious and essential alt history line be implemented, the one where France pulls itself together, resists pressure from its UK handlers and stands firm on its Guarantee of Czechoslovakia. That would then open a host of cool possibilities, Germany backing down, which would have caused Britain to sponsor a blackshirt movement in France, leading to Spanish-style civil war, only with both Axis and USSR joining in earnest this time, Britain supplying the former. Or an outright war with Poland joining the Germans after refusing to allow passage of Soviet troops.

And after, you could start playing around with US civil war fancies
 

TheMetalfreak

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Nice. I dunno if they have already said they would maybe add this, but is it possible to see a land-lease for ships? Atm there is only for convoys, but as USA I want to support UK with BC's and DD's and more.
 

Cody MacArthur Fett

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Alternatively they could go back to the system they hand in previous Hearts of Iron games where you had 10 Ideologies:
  • Stalinist
  • Leninist
  • Left-Wing Radical
  • Social Democrat
  • Social Liberal
  • Market Liberal
  • Social Conservative
  • Paternal Autocrat
  • Fascist
  • National Socialists
Some may need tweaking around or given a name change, still it helped with differing different types governments that are similar. Which would be good for hoi4 to repersent rightwing non-fascist dictatorships and the whole trotsky v Stalin angle among the left. Not to mention for democracies you would have elections. I so much prefer this system over the current system.
The problem with that is that it looks really intimidating from an outside perspective, which is a problem since one of HOI4's greatest strengths is its accessibility. CKII, EU4, Victoria 2, and especially HOI3 are absolutely terrifying for a new player, and almost impossible to get into without either a lot of stubborn inquisitiveness or a lot of handholding from friends who already know the game. If HOI4 suddenly does spawn 10 ideologies it's going to be another one of those systems that people just don't understand, like the assist attack order.

A far better solution would be what it already going on with Fascism, where the different sub-ideologies have different mechanics associated with them. Specifically, you'll notice that GER and JAP have different types of puppets that start out on different levels of autonomy after being conquered. That allows for an initial impression where new players can understand at a glance what is going on in the world, and for deeper strategies once a player comes to understand how ideologies can be sub-divided.
 

Stug_Life

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The problem with that is that it looks really intimidating from an outside perspective, which is a problem since one of HOI4's greatest strengths is its accessibility. CKII, EU4, Victoria 2, and especially HOI3 are absolutely terrifying for a new player, and almost impossible to get into without either a lot of stubborn inquisitiveness or a lot of handholding from friends who already know the game. If HOI4 suddenly does spawn 10 ideologies it's going to be another one of those systems that people just don't understand, like the assist attack order.

A far better solution would be what it already going on with Fascism, where the different sub-ideologies have different mechanics associated with them. Specifically, you'll notice that GER and JAP have different types of puppets that start out on different levels of autonomy after being conquered. That allows for an initial impression where new players can understand at a glance what is going on in the world, and for deeper strategies once a player comes to understand how ideologies can be sub-divided.
I dont believe the Japanese and German puppets have different mechanics, but just different names and images to fit the different cultures.
 

Louella

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I dont believe the Japanese and German puppets have different mechanics, but just different names and images to fit the different cultures.

no, they are different, if you look in the hearts of iron IV/common/autonomous_states folder, you'll see that Germany uses the Reichskommisariat, reichsprotectorate and satellite autonomy levels, and Japan has imperial protectorate, imperial associate, and imperial subject autonomy levels. They have slightly different rules and conditions applied to them.
 

Louella

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Alternatively they could go back to the system they hand in previous Hearts of Iron games where you had 10 Ideologies:
  • Stalinist
  • Leninist
  • Left-Wing Radical
  • Social Democrat
  • Social Liberal
  • Market Liberal
  • Social Conservative
  • Paternal Autocrat
  • Fascist
  • National Socialists
Some may need tweaking around or given a name change, still it helped with differing different types governments that are similar. Which would be good for hoi4 to repersent rightwing non-fascist dictatorships and the whole trotsky v Stalin angle among the left. Not to mention for democracies you would have elections. I so much prefer this system over the current system.

Okay, and how does a Social Conservative government react to a Stalinist government, and how does it react to a Leninist government ?

How does a left-wing Radical government react to a Leninist government ?

If we look in the common/ideologies folder, we see that the ideologies have an ai behaviour associated with them:
"ai_democratic = yes" for democratic ideologies for example.

Now, we look in the defines, and there's this bit:

Code:
    FASCISTS_BEFRIEND_FASCISTS = 10,
    FASCISTS_BEFRIEND_DEMOCRACIES = -25,
    FASCISTS_BEFRIEND_COMMUNISTS = -25,
    FASCISTS_ALLY_FASCISTS = 0,
    FASCISTS_ALLY_DEMOCRACIES = -100,
    FASCISTS_ALLY_COMMUNISTS = -100,
    FASCISTS_ANTAGONIZE_FASCISTS = -10,
    FASCISTS_ANTAGONIZE_DEMOCRACIES = 100,
    FASCISTS_ANTAGONIZE_COMMUNISTS = 100,
    DEMOCRACIES_BEFRIEND_FASCISTS = -25,
    DEMOCRACIES_BEFRIEND_DEMOCRACIES = 0,
    DEMOCRACIES_BEFRIEND_COMMUNISTS = -25,
    DEMOCRACIES_ALLY_FASCISTS = -50,
    DEMOCRACIES_ALLY_DEMOCRACIES = 0,
    DEMOCRACIES_ALLY_COMMUNISTS = -50,
    DEMOCRACIES_ANTAGONIZE_FASCISTS = 0,
    DEMOCRACIES_ANTAGONIZE_DEMOCRACIES = -25,
    DEMOCRACIES_ANTAGONIZE_COMMUNISTS = 0,
    COMMUNISTS_BEFRIEND_FASCISTS = -25,
    COMMUNISTS_BEFRIEND_DEMOCRACIES = -25,
    COMMUNISTS_BEFRIEND_COMMUNISTS = 25,
    COMMUNISTS_ALLY_FASCISTS = -100,
    COMMUNISTS_ALLY_DEMOCRACIES = -50,
    COMMUNISTS_ALLY_COMMUNISTS = 0,
    COMMUNISTS_ANTAGONIZE_FASCISTS = 100,
    COMMUNISTS_ANTAGONIZE_DEMOCRACIES = 10,
    COMMUNISTS_ANTAGONIZE_COMMUNISTS = -10,


This has the result that a Leninist and a Stalinist government, which both use the Communist AI, will behave the same towards each other, as they would to a marxist, anti-revisionist, or anarcho-communist government. Which is... maybe not right.

This is the major limitation on how ideologies can be modded.

So, that's a 3x3 grid for how 3 of the ideologies interact with each other (the neutral AI doesn't do any of those things).

So, if you want the different ideologies to interact with each other differently - nuance between Leninist, Marxist, and Stalinist for example, then, it requires a 10x10 grid of interactions for 10 active ideologies. And 10 different AI behaviours.

Which is a lot of work, and for what benefit ? Does it really matter when playing a democratic country, if the enemy is "Fascist" or "Nationalist Socialist" ?
 

Dryhad

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Its all nice and cool and a sphrerical horse in vacuum when it comes to Alt History in Hoi4.

Leaving me feeling intensely frustrated aside,

When will the One obvious and essential alt history line be implemented, the one where France pulls itself together, resists pressure from its UK handlers and stands firm on its Guarantee of Czechoslovakia. That would then open a host of cool possibilities, Germany backing down, which would have caused Britain to sponsor a blackshirt movement in France, leading to Spanish-style civil war, only with both Axis and USSR joining in earnest this time, Britain supplying the former. Or an outright war with Poland joining the Germans after refusing to allow passage of Soviet troops.

And after, you could start playing around with US civil war fancies
Let's break this down a little, because as far as I can tell your "One obvious and essential alt history line" is already in the game: You absolutely can hold firm on Czechoslovakia as France. At this point, though, you lose me because you seem to be saying that the logical and inevitable consequence of this is Britain going Fascist for no reason. Still, though, such a path will exist for the UK under the MtG tree and you'll be able to select it in game preferences. And Germany and Poland ending up on the same side against the USSR is hardly unheard of in HoI4. So I think all the things you want are either already in the game or will be added in the next update? Or do I misunderstand you?
 

Telenil

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Alternatively they could go back to the system they hand in previous Hearts of Iron games where you had 10 Ideologies:
  • Stalinist
  • Leninist
  • Left-Wing Radical
  • Social Democrat
  • Social Liberal
  • Market Liberal
  • Social Conservative
  • Paternal Autocrat
  • Fascist
  • National Socialists
Some may need tweaking around or given a name change, still it helped with differing different types governments that are similar. Which would be good for hoi4 to repersent rightwing non-fascist dictatorships and the whole trotsky v Stalin angle among the left. Not to mention for democracies you would have elections. I so much prefer this system over the current system.
There is a case for having a "loyal opposition", if you want elections to change some rule that isn't already covered by national focuses. Or if you want a communist-vs-communist civil war between Stalin and Trotsky. I think however that 10 ideologies is overkill in a game centered on WW2 (or variations thereof). Let's say you play Social Democrats in France, what difference would it make to have an opposition that is social liberal rather than market liberal? Or a combination of the two? What is changed if you add social conservatives in the mix?

It does add flavor, but I'm not sure if it's much of an improvement if the result is a 10-sided pie chart split between ideologies, especially when I don't know the difference between some of them.
 

Conscript292

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It sound to me that some people want their mods (Kaiserreich/Road to 56) to be given an Arsenal of Democracy/Darkest Hour spin off with help from the HoI4 dev team. Hopefully this new UK/U.S.A expansion will help the moding scene.
 

vbanev

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Let's break this down a little, because as far as I can tell your "One obvious and essential alt history line" is already in the game: You absolutely can hold firm on Czechoslovakia as France. At this point, though, you lose me because you seem to be saying that the logical and inevitable consequence of this is Britain going Fascist for no reason. Still, though, such a path will exist for the UK under the MtG tree and you'll be able to select it in game preferences. And Germany and Poland ending up on the same side against the USSR is hardly unheard of in HoI4. So I think all the things you want are either already in the game or will be added in the next update? Or do I misunderstand you?

The problem is that HoI4 models the internal politics in a very a-historic, radically dumbed-down fashion.

What do i mean? It would be a long explanation to attempt in full, so you will have to accept my word for some of it (and references to literature) so i can keep it to reasonable length.

Interbellum period has been shaped by the fairly Marxist class struggle where in countries with weaker economies governments broke down under the pressure in red vs white(the latter quickly turning brown) civil wars or quiet struggles. Russia was the first, before WWI even concluded, seeing a right wing liberal and politically impotent government collapse to a "socialist" coup (Oct 17). In an ensuing civil war, often described as red on white, though effectively it showed most characteristics of the red on brown struggles that flared up in Italy, Germany and Spain.
What is important to note, is that the red vs brown conflict was not driven by ideology, it was the opposite - ideology was driven by conflict that had mostly economic and social roots - that is rapid increase in transportation availability, firepower and population density shifted the power balance away from the government to the disgruntled poor strata of the population, creating very real risks of revolutions driven by leftist "take from the rich" ideologies in countires weakened by economic woes and political failures. Read "Fascist voices" if you want a good illustration of this process as it unfolded in Italy.
As govenments often failed to contain popular movements by worker's unions, the natural response from the right was the formation of opposition from those on the target list of the socialist wealth redistribution - middle class, shopkeepers, officers, aristocratic youth. Being physically stronger(better nutrition), with large numbers of officers and veterans among their ranks, the radicalisation of right wing naturally took shape of paramilitary organisations built on violence.
If tensions were not calmed early on, both sides conitnued to radicalise, drawing foreign support and polarising internal divisions through strikes / violence against strikersn until one of the sides (usually the better organised, politically experienced and benefiting from greater international support from the right-wing ruling classes browns). The winning side would then have to proceed to purge opposition and establish a hegemonic rule (see Beevor's account of the Spanish Civil war for a good illustration, though any other credible book on Spain or Italy will do)
What is important to note, is that European governments of the day were mostly right wing, but they were not fascist. At least in 1918 that is. The popular ideology however was left wing. Fascist shift was a product of right wing radicalisation in response to government's failure to contain left wing protest to economic hardship.
International politics were heavilly intertwined with Internal politics of the red vs brown. France support for Czechoslovakia together with USSR would have been seen as strengthening of the left wing, giving it more political weight in internal politics, it would have resulted in a right wing reaction internally, as well as extensive international response with German and Italian money and materiel pouring it to prevent another country falling to vile communists. Where would Britain stand? Probably same as it did with Spain, Italy or Germany - on the side opposing communists to protect its own internal politics balance.
What does it mean for HoI4?
HoI4 has 2 major vices:
1. National decision trees are not interlinked, so you can sign MR Pact even as Trotsky
2. It treats political landscape as bi-polar while in reality it should be tri-polar with both an ideology driven component, and a stability driven component, with democracy only working so long as you maintain internal stability and avoid radicalisation (i.e. you start of as a democracy, but as internal struggle heats up, voters radicalise, support for fascist and communist rises in parallel until one side wins a civil war or completely outmanoeuvres the opposition like nsdap did in germany, taking over the left wing vote). hoi3 was actually better on that, with both pull and push factors driving alignment of countires with faction proximity and threat playing part.

What should, ideally, happen, is that countries that start out democratic react to strengthening of communist neighbours or red influence by radicalising towards fascism (including support for axis countires already fighting the "red menace" ) but also boosting communist popularity. As to actions of the Axis the reaction would be different - threat from Axis would mostly cause increase in stability/war support, reducing significantly fascist popularity and allowing the country to militarise while maintaining an unaligned regime (i.e. staying as democracy)
In foreign relations again, any action that strengthens communist hand would be met with a right wing reaction. This would be both, historic (Britain would never have allowed Germany to be partitioned by communist France and USSR), and very game-friendly as it would provide something of balancing mechanism for the factions (and again, the war happened precisely because in that historic period social struggle provided the faction balancing mechanism it did. If not for the fear of Socialist empowerment, international support would never have been given to Mussolini, Franko would not have had his blockade of the Republican forces and Germany would never have been handed the tank factories of Czechoslovakia)

Alas, the ahistoric sandbox is what we get, with disjointed scripted events replacing simulation and a kindergarden depth of political simulation that suggests fascism is something you would be putting to a popular vote. Sad times.

P.S. Read Michael Jabara Carley's 1939 The Alliance that never was, about how close yet how incredibly far was the world to halting Hitler's aggressive expansion with the Franco-Soviet guarantee of Czechoslovakia. And how it would have done absolutely nothing to stop the advent of a world war.
 

Dolfy1012

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Another Dlc, great ! How about fixing the late game (fps) issue first before adding any new stuff into the game? I get so angry when i reach mid 1942 that i stop playing because the game lags so much even though i have a very solid gaming pc which can run any other game i have smoothly ; intel i5-6402p processor, msi motherboard and nvidia gtx950 graphics card.