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HoI 4 - Dev Diary: America Rework

Hello, and welcome back to another dev diary! Today we are going to talk about Freedom. Freedom from Fear. Freedom from Want. Freedom from having to vote for a presidential candidate every four years.


The vanilla US focus tree offered some interesting alternate-history scenarios, but if you wanted to play historical, you pretty much sat around doing very little until the war started. Part of this is the fundamental design problem of the US in a historical grand-strategy game: if we allow the US to freely enter the war when it has even a fraction of its historical economy, the Axis never makes it into Paris and the war ends in 1940. If we restrict the US from entering the war freely until its historical date, the US player sits around until late 1941 doing very little (there is a reason why my usual go-to scenario in HoI2 and HoI3 was “Play France until you lose, then switch to the US”).


usa_focus_devdiary.jpg



So one of the goals we had for this rework was to give the player a bit more stuff to actually do during the lead-up to the war. Making the path out of the depression a little more involved was an obvious place to start. Instead of a single national spirit, it is now three levels that give a smoother curve out of the depression. But instead of just taking three focuses in a row to do what could previously be done in one, we wanted the player to have to work a lot more to get out of the depression.


Enter the script-based Congress Mechanic. The Congress mechanic is - for now - unique to the US and simulates the shifting majorities in both houses of Congress. It ties into a lot of things that we will get into in a bit. But on a fundamental level, taking the focuses that reduce the penalties from the great depression will require you to have a majority in both houses, but will also reduce your support once you have taken it to simulate members of Congress who voted for the proposal being unwilling to support you further without getting something in return.


picture_us_congress.JPG



You can gain and lose support from random events as well as midterm and presidential elections. Generally speaking, going with the incumbent means you are more likely to lose support in Congress in the election, and if the situation is particularly dire, going with the challenger will flip support and opposition. Beyond this, a number of decisions allow you to gain support in congress, from simple lobbying to bribing members of Congress by investing in their constituencies to just regularly bribing them.


picture_us_build_factory.JPG



Besides getting out of the depression, you’ll also need to get Congress to sign off on the Selective Service Act, which is the gatekeeper focus of the army modernization branch, and the Two Ocean Navy Act, which is the gatekeeper focus for the naval branch. The amount of support you need depends on your war support (in general, you can assume that every focus with “Act” somewhere in its title ties into the Congress mechanic).


Another aspect we wanted to add was to give the US player a choice to become more active in the world earlier. As I said above, that comes with host of issues. We want it to be a viable option, but not a no-brainer. This means that there will be a number of restrictions in the “Limited Intervention” branch. First, you’ll have to have enough support in Congress to take the focus (and a lack of war support means that quite a few member of Congress will break ranks over it). Afterwards, you will have to choose between focusing your efforts on preparing to intervene in Europe or in Asia. Taking either of these focuses unlocks a number of decisions to try and build public support for an intervention. Many of these decisions are tied to events around the world - here the US is protesting the Anschluss.


picture_us_anschluss.JPG



However, there is only a small window to utilize these events. Each decision adds something that is internally called an “intervention strike” as in “three strikes and you’re out”, except in this case it’s “three strikes and we start bombing”. A generic decision allows to build support against a target if they do not have specific decisions associated with them. Finally, once a country has two strikes against them, you can petition congress to sanction an intervention, which will again require significant support (it is easier to gain a wargoal against a country that is at war, and easier still if they are in an aggressive war).


This will likely make it harder for you to pursue your other goals - so if you want to intervene in Europe on behalf of the Allies, you will most likely have to forego economic reforms, at least for a while.


The intervention mandates are also used to allow the US to intervene in the Americas if someone violates the Monroe doctrine.


Intervention in general is something you can prepare a lot better now by using war plans. Completing the focuses unlocks a decision to execute the corresponding war plan and gain a temporary bonus against a country, along with some other temporary bonuses.


us_picture_war_plan.jpg



Of course, by this point a statistical majority of you might wonder why you even bother with all this busy-work, bribing senators, cutting deals with representatives, when there is a world to be won. As promised, we also wanted to add proper alternate ideology branches for the US. As we said many months ago in the Dev Diary about South Africa, we also look to try and open up new areas of the map for warfare, to allow you to fight in different areas than trudging across the same old parts of Europe.


So we wanted to have a nice big Civil War in the US. We want tank battles south of Chicago. Naval landings in Florida. A brutal slog across the Rocky Mountains. So we decided to not just put in one civil war but two! That’s a whole 100% MORE CIVIL WAR!


You’ll have to fight a civil war in either of the alternate ideology branches. For the curious: the branches straight down from the WPA and Adjusted Compensation Act are democratic ideology branches and will be part of the free update, the branches starting with Suspend the Prosecution and America First will be part of the DLC.


In the left branch, appropriately enough, you soften up your stance towards the communists. You can do this even if you don’t intend to go fully communist, as it opens up new ways of gaining support in Congress. If you do decide to be more radical, you can desegregate the American society, which will trigger protests from the usual suspects. The protests by themselves don’t do anything, but if you decide to push harder towards communism, the protests will intensify and eventually spill over. The Unions Representation Act is another such trigger that will cause protests.


Picture_us_communists_protests.JPG



Before the civil war breaks out, there is a “Point of No Return” after which it is merely a question of time until hostilities start. In the time between the Point of No Return and the actual start of the war, you’ll get a number of events telling you how the situation develops. These events have actual effects on how your position is like at the start of the war.


For example, if an event tells you that a state has mobilized the national guard, the revolter gets a fully-equipped and quite capable division when the war starts. These events aren’t intended to make the difference between winning and losing but to give the war a bit more flavor.


Once the war starts in the communist branch, it is not quite like a regular civil war. Instead of the country and the military splitting in half, it spawns a new tag (CSA). This allows us to do a few things, like removing CSA territories as cores for the US (which means that they, for example, create resistance when conquered into). Depending on how far down you’ve gone in the communist branch, a part of the country might also declare its neutrality during the war. You can still interact with this part through decisions, but so can the other side.


picture_us_purchase_weapons.JPG



Where in other countries, a civil war is something we must be very careful with to ensure that the country is not completely crippled by the time the real war starts, here, we want ACWII to be “the war” the US gets into and which merges into the greater World War. So there are limited objectives for you after you have won the American Theater of World War II, but you can push decolonization in Asia and intervene in the Chinese Civil War, while also working to reintegrate the breakaway states.


The Civil War in the fascist branch works along similar lines. You also get a branch leading down from America First that you can use even if you don’t want to go full fascist - a sort of flirting with fascism, allowing you, for example, to investigate the opposition through the House Committee of Un-American Activities. The Voter Registration Act ensures a comfortable majority in every election, but triggers a wave of protests.


If you decide to push even further and publicly ally with the Silver Legion, you will trigger additional protests that put the country on the road to civil war. Like in the communist branch, a number of events determine what the starting position is, but the roles are reversed. Where in the communist branch, a part of the country tries to break away, in the fascist branch the country revolts against your leadership and tries to oust you from power, forcing you to fall back into a powerbase you set up in advance (you set up a powerbase in advance, right?). Parts of the country will declare in support or in opposition, leading to different front lines.


With much of the professional military on the other side, you’ll have to rely on hastily-raised militias to hold the line until you can get back on your feet. You might have to cut some deals and appeal to the locals to get them to accept that you are on their side.


picture_us_honor_confederacy.JPG



Once you have won that war, you are left with a US that is now safely fascist, which means that you are ideally poised to conquer the rest of the world. So we decided we might as well give you the focus tree to do just that. The War Powers Act lessens the stability impact of being in a war, and you can take your first steps abroad as you politely ask Canada to give you the territory between you and the Alaskan border (the event may or may not be called “Vancouver Or War!”) and politely ask Cuba to please stop being independent.


You continue in this fashion until at last you demand global hegemony and give all other majors an ultimatum to either become puppets or go to war. Along the way, you will most likely have gobbled up all the small countries that otherwise make conquering the world such a pain.


That is all for today. Next week we will be back with another look into the naval side of things.



Rejected Titles:

You will want fries with this focus tree

Making the world safe for fascism

Josh Lyman Simulator 2018

All focus trees are bigger in Texas

Communism is the right of all sentient beings

While writing this dev diary a bald eagle sat down outside the window and cried. True story.

My favourite state borders are Colorado’s

My google search history now makes me unemployable in most of the US

Fight them over here so we don’t have to fight them over there

This dev diary may contain trace amounts of political commentary

There was supposed to be a monarchist path but the Americans in the office rebelled and threw away all the tea

Team America saves the day

“Three strikes and we start bombing” would dramatically improve Baseball as a sport

https://twitter.com/alflandonlover gets the love he deserves

Actually rejected title: Make America <literally anything> Again

“Five score and two days ago our game director brought forth, upon this world, a new DLC announcement, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all gamers like American Civil Wars.”
 
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DominusNovus

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We need more senators and representatives in Congress for new states. 2 senators and a math calculation I don't know for the house of represenitives. You can look up the info on census.gov.

Actually, the House doesn’t change, it stays at 435 no matter what. Well. At least until Congress repeals the law that says so or the Supreme Court delcares it unconstitutional.
 

Lord Hoosier

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Actually, the House doesn’t change, it stays at 435 no matter what. Well. At least until Congress repeals the law that says so or the Supreme Court delcares it unconstitutional.
I was not aware my us gov teacher had the carisma of damp wallpaper, so I didn't learn much. Thank you for the information!
 

DominusNovus

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Maybe we have to elect Democrats to go Communist.

Well, as much fun as it would be to get embroiled in a “Republicans are Fascist!” and “Democrats are Communists!” shouting match, I think that option would be just as bad. Neither party had any serious inclination toward either of those two ideologies, and gating either choice behind one of the two parties being in power would be a horrible decision on the part of P’dox that would just smack of demogogic politics. Which is why I am quite confident that they haven’t done so.

No matter what the people disagreeing with my other post think.
 

vyshan

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Well, as much fun as it would be to get embroiled in a “Republicans are Fascist!” and “Democrats are Communists!” shouting match, I think that option would be just as bad. Neither party had any serious inclination toward either of those two ideologies, and gating either choice behind one of the two parties being in power would be a horrible decision on the part of P’dox that would just smack of demogogic politics. Which is why I am quite confident that they haven’t done so.

No matter what the people disagreeing with my other post think.

More over that idea that the Democrats were the Liberal party and the Republicans were the conservative party was not set in stone at all in the 1930s. Both the Democrats and Republicans had Liberal and Conservative wings. Remember the Democrats was made up of southern democrats who almost always supported Jim Crow and were rather conservative if not reactionary in some cases.

Like wise While you did have conservative republicans, the liberal wing of the Republicans was still around and strong. Its not for nothing that all 3 opponents of FDR came from this wing; sure they might have opposed parts of the new deal but they weren't opposed to everything about it. While some democrats turned against it entirely, such as Al Smith and John Nance Garner

This also explains why some republicans were supporters of FDR's programs while some democrats opposed them. It also explains the Conservative Coalition which united conservatives from both the republican party and democratic party together.
 

balmung60

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Well, as much fun as it would be to get embroiled in a “Republicans are Fascist!” and “Democrats are Communists!” shouting match, I think that option would be just as bad. Neither party had any serious inclination toward either of those two ideologies, and gating either choice behind one of the two parties being in power would be a horrible decision on the part of P’dox that would just smack of demogogic politics. Which is why I am quite confident that they haven’t done so.

No matter what the people disagreeing with my other post think.
I think that, in the context of the game, to go Communist, you have to continue and dramatically expand the New Deal, which means keeping FDR and the Democrats (or the progressive wing thereof) in power. Meanwhile, going Fascist requires ending the New Deal, which FDR would not do, and thus the Republicans, running on (among other things) opposing the stuff that FDR is doing.

Of some note, electing the Republicans does NOT directly lead to a Fascist takeover and the Fascists still need to wage a civil war to actually take power and turn America into a Fascist state. Similarly, electing the Democrats does not necessarily lead to a Communist takeover and the Communist takeover only really becomes possible once the assorted anti-Communists essentially self-purge via starting a civil war over desegregation or something that is basically just an expansion of liberal progressivism above and beyond what FDR did historically.
 

SgtHydra

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Granting statehood to Alaska, Hawaii, or the Philippines should prompt a decision event for Japan; as they ought to at the very least write a strongly worded letter protesting any consolidation of America's pacific territories. Possibly get a wargoal, as it'd be quite refreshing to just see a traditional war over a single piece of land instead of 'all your base' all the time. After all, both the US and Japan frequently fought these kinds of smaller territorial scuffles just a few decades prior for both of them - Spanish-American War and Ruso-Japanese War, respectively. Obviously if it gets rolled into WW2, that's what happens, but it could easily be a minor early game conflict over Hawaii or the Philippines too.

Furthermore, if Germany wins WW2 or is close to doing so, and the USA is still neutral and democratic; USA should get an option to grant statehood to Canada - thus preventing Germany from just automatically annexing a nation across the Atlantic they would really have no way to occupy under normal circumstances. I'd think that'd tee up the next phase of the war against the Axis fairly well. Germany can't just annex Canada and march across the northern US border anymore, it'll need to build up a navy and invade the Americas properly - which will of course give the Japanese time to make their own play for the continent.

In my experience, the Pacific lacks the historical tensions beyond Japan being resource starved; and if the war in Europe ends early then things get real uninteresting for Germany real fast.
 

imvdm

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Granting statehood to Alaska, Hawaii, or the Philippines should prompt a decision event for Japan; as they ought to at the very least write a strongly worded letter protesting any consolidation of America's pacific territories. Possibly get a wargoal, as it'd be quite refreshing to just see a traditional war over a single piece of land instead of 'all your base' all the time. After all, both the US and Japan frequently fought these kinds of smaller territorial scuffles just a few decades prior for both of them - Spanish-American War and Ruso-Japanese War, respectively. Obviously if it gets rolled into WW2, that's what happens, but it could easily be a minor early game conflict over Hawaii or the Philippines too.
First, nowhere in this DD indicates any way for the Philippines to become a US state.

Second, the Japs are in no position to challenge the west on its own with their 1936 positions, they either need to have taken China/Russia out, or wait until Europe is in flame to even make that kind of gesture.

Third, Canadian statehood is kind of pointless, since America’s Monroe Doctrine already prevents axis from expanding the war across the Atlantics. And the Canadians themselves aren’t exactly known to be thrilled with such kind of gestures.

Finally, for all intent and purposes, a German victory in Europe very much signifies the end of the game for most, no point in expanding the game beyond that point.
 

Reinner

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Also highly inaccurate of American politics.
You know what is also inaccurate… Trotsky being able to stage coup against Stalin, communist revolution in Japan, Hungary restoring Austria-Hungary, South Africa staging Anti-Colonial crusade etc.

I think we are past the point by now to argue what is realistic or historically accurate.
 

Feltan

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These last few pages of posts are a testament to why the "America Rework," as it is currently conceived, is absurd.

Republicans are not Fascists and Democrats are not Communists -- the parties of the day simply did not have these tendencies. At all. It would have taken a very radical change in the course of history for things to lurch to one extreme or the other.

Another item of interest is that the America First movement is described as Fascist in game terms. It was not. It was Isolationist, and passed none of the tests one would apply to determine if a regime was Fascist. They didn't advocate for Government control of key industries, one party rule, nor practiced or advocated for violent suppression of opposition statements. America First was simply a grass roots movement to stop Roosevelt from getting us into a war. Once Japan attacked, the movement dissolved -- it never had political aspirations aside from keeping the US neutral (within the context of the Constitution and existing political parties). The movement was centered in the mid-west U.S. (Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Milwaukee) and was more anti-Roosevelt-foreign policy than anything else; there was little to no following for the movement in other parts of the country -- especially the East Coast. It is hardly fair or correct to lump them in with Fascists of the day.

The U.S. does need some improvements in terms of game play. It is just damn hard to model in a computer simulation the explosive change in attitude, industry and national focus that the Pearl Harbor attack initiated. If it was modeled correctly, an Axis player would never attack the U.S. Historically, both Japan and Germany thought the U.S. would fold if they suffered stinging defeats early on -- which would almost certainly never have happened much like Britain didn't fold when the chips were down in 1940. Rather, the explosive growth of industry and military capability is not done justice with current game mechanics. Tank production for the U.S. was over 100,000 between Dec 41 and the end of the war, 300,000 aircraft and over 2 million trucks and jeeps were produced -- try to do that in the game!

However, instead of trying to correctly model history, it appears we are on the path to a Candy Land game where you press a button and alter history beyond anything realistically conceivable. I am shocked that Paradox and the HOI franchise are even entertaining this concept.

It is deeply disappointing that this is the path being pursued.

Regards,
Feltan
 

SgtHydra

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First, nowhere in this DD indicates any way for the Philippines to become a US state.

Second, the Japs are in no position to challenge the west on its own with their 1936 positions, they either need to have taken China/Russia out, or wait until Europe is in flame to even make that kind of gesture.

Third, Canadian statehood is kind of pointless, since America’s Monroe Doctrine already prevents axis from expanding the war across the Atlantics. And the Canadians themselves aren’t exactly known to be thrilled with such kind of gestures.

Finally, for all intent and purposes, a German victory in Europe very much signifies the end of the game for most, no point in expanding the game beyond that point.

First, while statehood for the Philippines is an ahistorical option, so is a second American Civil War. Hawaii was annexed in 1893, and the Philippines became a US territory in 1898. While it's not in the DD, it's not exactly any more absurd than granting statehood to Hawaii; especially since doing so would be well within an expansionist USA's interests. People can suggest things that might have slipped the Dev's minds, you know, and it's up to them and them alone to decide if the suggestion has value.

Second, an early war with the US is a completely valid Japanese strategy in WtT and one I often see recommended in guides. Sorry if that's not historical, but that's just the way it is.

Third, Monroe Doctrine or not, it's painfully simple for any Axis country with enough warscore to just annex Canada and start prepping a northern US invasion. The whole suggestion of Canadian statehood, while certainly quite absurd from a historical perspective, is again something an expansionist US player would be interested in - especially if they do not want any new Axis neighbors to the North. Just like how America takes control of Greenland after the fall of Denmark, America could have the option to annex Canada - or alternatively offer to negotiate Canada's complete exit from the allies and the war - if London falls or something. The whole idea is to deny the Axis a foothold in the Americas, and encourage Germany to actually build up a navy and put it to good use. And if anything, offering Canada - parts of it, anyway - statehood is something that's actually happened historically - unlike certain things in the DD. An alliance with America wouldn't be that bad of an alternative in comparison to facing Axis invasion or occupation, just like what was the case with Greenland historically. That's the overall germ of that ahistorical route.

Fourth, Paradox's official position is the game's timeline is supported all the way up to 1948, and most games I play tend to end around 1942. Furthermore, there are plenty of potential events (Operation Unthinkable, Man in the High Castle type scenarios, post war UK-US rivalries) that could simply be handled with generic mechanics rather than adding focuses all the way up to 1948 (which would be the exact opposite of what I'm suggesting). We have these decisions mechanics, we have generic events that are scripted to occur under given parameters - so Paradox should use them and not just frontload the early game more and more with each expansion. If the Axis defeat the Allies and the Comintern, then obviously the game should shift gears and start applying pressure that breaks the Axis up and continues the war simulation game from there. Maybe certain decisions will keep the Axis together long enough to conquer the remaining holdouts in the world, but obviously Germany, Italy, and Japan will wish to break off and form their own factions for the next phase of the war. Same with an abundantly over-successful Comintern, and to a lesser extent abundantly over-successful Allies. "If your faction has no major enemy faction, it gets harder to keep together every year." No 'Cold War' focus tree needed, just a decision event chain that might occur when any major faction is the only one left after eliminating two others. It's called a late game. It's not exactly an unreasonable expectation to have about any strategy game. Especially not one that is supposed to last until 1948.
 
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Alfray Stryke

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I seriously doubt the US would have made the Philippines a single state back then given it had a greater population than any single US state and thus would have a far greater representation in the House than any other state.
 

balmung60

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These last few pages of posts are a testament to why the "America Rework," as it is currently conceived, is absurd.

Republicans are not Fascists and Democrats are not Communists -- the parties of the day simply did not have these tendencies. At all. It would have taken a very radical change in the course of history for things to lurch to one extreme or the other.
And if you will notice, neither of those are the case in-game. The Democrats, however, are given the option to enable the Communists by ahistorically expanding the New Deal, which even on its own does not usher in Communism - instead, the backlash against this results in a civil war, which presumably both further empowers the American far-left by way of putting people in conflict with anti-communist elements and essentially self-purges those elements, as those who don't die in the fighting of the war most likely no longer hold positions of power. Similarly, the Republicans, primarily through opposition to FDR and his New Deal and interventionism (and taking said opposition too far), can enable the Fascists, and their potential actions (that they do not have to take) can make it easier for the far-right to grow. At some point, taking ahistorical actions backfires on the party and country and emboldens the far-right enough to attempt to seize control of the country. A common thread to both of these is that the parties have to take ahistorical choices to push the wildly ahistorical outcome, whereas taking the more historical options lead to either a mostly historical USA (Democrats, which in the context of HOIIV means FDR + Truman) or a more isolationist USA than in history(Republicans).

First, while statehood for the Philippines is an ahistorical option, so is a second American Civil War. Hawaii was annexed in 1893, and the Philippines became a US territory in 1898. While it's not in the DD, it's not exactly any more absurd than granting statehood to Hawaii; especially since doing so would be well within an expansionist USA's interests. People can suggest things that might have slipped the Dev's minds, you know, and it's up to them and them alone to decide if the suggestion has value.
Philippine statehood is incredibly unlikely - the Philippines wanted independence and they and the US were on the path to a peaceful separation of colonial ties that was going on-schedule until Japan invaded and resumed its schedule to conclusion after WWII. The Philippines would not vote to attempt to become a state, nor would Congress allow them to enter as a unified state due to the massive change in the balance of power in the House that introducing a new state with over 10% of the entire US population would have, and breaking them into several states would create a massive bloc of Filipino Senators. Furthermore, the Philippenes wouldn't have anything to gain from statehood - their subject relationship and presumable post-decolonization alliance would already provide them the same protection from Japanese aggression that actually being a US state would.
 

DominusNovus

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More over that idea that the Democrats were the Liberal party and the Republicans were the conservative party was not set in stone at all in the 1930s. Both the Democrats and Republicans had Liberal and Conservative wings. Remember the Democrats was made up of southern democrats who almost always supported Jim Crow and were rather conservative if not reactionary in some cases.

Like wise While you did have conservative republicans, the liberal wing of the Republicans was still around and strong. Its not for nothing that all 3 opponents of FDR came from this wing; sure they might have opposed parts of the new deal but they weren't opposed to everything about it. While some democrats turned against it entirely, such as Al Smith and John Nance Garner

This also explains why some republicans were supporters of FDR's programs while some democrats opposed them. It also explains the Conservative Coalition which united conservatives from both the republican party and democratic party together.

Well put. Also worth noting is that the liberal v conservative axis did not line up perfectly with the pro- v anti- New Deal axis. There was a lot more nuance between the parties in those days.

I think that, in the context of the game, to go Communist, you have to continue and dramatically expand the New Deal, which means keeping FDR and the Democrats (or the progressive wing thereof) in power. Meanwhile, going Fascist requires ending the New Deal, which FDR would not do, and thus the Republicans, running on (among other things) opposing the stuff that FDR is doing.

Of some note, electing the Republicans does NOT directly lead to a Fascist takeover and the Fascists still need to wage a civil war to actually take power and turn America into a Fascist state. Similarly, electing the Democrats does not necessarily lead to a Communist takeover and the Communist takeover only really becomes possible once the assorted anti-Communists essentially self-purge via starting a civil war over desegregation or something that is basically just an expansion of liberal progressivism above and beyond what FDR did historically.

My point isn’t that I would object to either party being power automatically leading to a communist or fascist path. My point is that I would object to either communism or fascism being enabled, potentially, by either party being in power.

It has been suggested before, and I’ll suggest it again:

There should be 4 paths: Communist, Fascist, and two Democratic. The two Democratic paths should not be locked in absolutely to either party being in power (though if they were, it wouldn’t be the worst thing), but should just represent the various issues that the country differed on: segregation, isolationism, government intervention against the Depression, etc.

I would gate both Communism and Fascism behind mucking up the Depression too badly, rather than either party being in power, representing extremists taking over in the face of government impotence.
 

Lord Hoosier

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Lets not have this be a flame war...
 

Seraphina985

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Well put. Also worth noting is that the liberal v conservative axis did not line up perfectly with the pro- v anti- New Deal axis. There was a lot more nuance between the parties in those days.

This sort of thing is ultimately a consequence of trying to plot politics on a single linear scale, things get a lot easier it you separate out the social and economic axis from each other thus having a spectrum consisting of authoritarian/libertarian on the social axis and free/command on the economic axis.

If you do that then you get 4 quadrants that for want of better terms could be called Classical Libertarian (Libertarian/Free), Fascist (Authoritarian/Free), Communist (Authoritarian/Command) and Democratic Socialism (Libertarian/Command).

The latter two are a bit trickier to name really but note that here I am using Communism to refer to a Stalinist/Maoist form, and Democratic Socialism to mean a socially liberal philosophy but with a belief that the economy should serve the greater good even if that means taking direct democratic control of some or even all of it to achieve that aim.

It's even more tricky for the latter philosophy as we don't at least not yet really have a mechanism to implement that in what would be it's likely ultimate more extreme form (Which would likely resemble something more like a post-automation direct democracy).
 

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This is an amazing feature and I know my first campaign in MtG will be as the USA, which makes me happy as its my country. However we need to stop getting angry about the fact that they are politicizing a political aspect of a political game. We Americans have been playing this game as various other nations. How many times have we sided with still extant or at least moderate parties or historical events and movements to go Communist or Fascist. We don't really have much of a right to whine when our familiar parties are being used to go down dark alt history paths when PDS has been doing this with numerous other nations.

And regardless the Communists are The CPUSA and the Fascists are the Silver Legion, so saying that they are calling either party extremists is wrong. The events say that the radical elements do not like the leading party and electing a republican or keeping a democrat simply shows the fact that America is starting to tip right or left politically. If the real extremists are gaining influence they're watered down moderate counterparts likely would too.

And we do not actually know if choosing party influences the decision to turn fascist or communist so we are preemptively complaining about a feature that we are not even certain exists.
 

Seraphina985

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And regardless the Communists are The CPUSA and the Fascists are the Silver Legion, so saying that they are calling either party extremists is wrong. The events say that the radical elements do not like the leading party and electing a republican or keeping a democrat simply shows the fact that America is starting to tip right or left politically. If the real extremists are gaining influence they're watered down moderate counterparts likely would too.

Exactly hell there is even a name for this effect it's called the Overton window and exploiting it is even a known political strategy openly push hard for an unthinkably extreme policy to make the more moderate (but still radical) policy you actually want seem less extreme by comparison.
 

Lord Hoosier

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Hey I just filled out my selective services papers two months ago! Fun times.
 

balmung60

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Well put. Also worth noting is that the liberal v conservative axis did not line up perfectly with the pro- v anti- New Deal axis. There was a lot more nuance between the parties in those days.



My point isn’t that I would object to either party being power automatically leading to a communist or fascist path. My point is that I would object to either communism or fascism being enabled, potentially, by either party being in power.

It has been suggested before, and I’ll suggest it again:

There should be 4 paths: Communist, Fascist, and two Democratic. The two Democratic paths should not be locked in absolutely to either party being in power (though if they were, it wouldn’t be the worst thing), but should just represent the various issues that the country differed on: segregation, isolationism, government intervention against the Depression, etc.

I would gate both Communism and Fascism behind mucking up the Depression too badly, rather than either party being in power, representing extremists taking over in the face of government impotence.
There already are two democratic paths, not tied to party - limited intervention and neutrality act. One could argue that both the Communist and Fascist path also do result from mucking up the Depression too badly - the Communists from overreacting and the Fascists from underreacting.

Also, the then-existent "nuance" isn't terribly relevant to the game - New Deal means FDR and members of both parties that support it (but definitely Democrats in the White House because as far as HOI4 is concerned, Democrats in the White House necessarily means FDR and the party specifics of Congress aren't important to gameplay, only which way it votes), and anti-New Deal means members of both parties that support it, but primarily the Republicans because FDR's leadership position in his own party isn't contested in-game.
This sort of thing is ultimately a consequence of trying to plot politics on a single linear scale, things get a lot easier it you separate out the social and economic axis from each other thus having a spectrum consisting of authoritarian/libertarian on the social axis and free/command on the economic axis.

If you do that then you get 4 quadrants that for want of better terms could be called Classical Libertarian (Libertarian/Free), Fascist (Authoritarian/Free), Communist (Authoritarian/Command) and Democratic Socialism (Libertarian/Command).

The latter two are a bit trickier to name really but note that here I am using Communism to refer to a Stalinist/Maoist form, and Democratic Socialism to mean a socially liberal philosophy but with a belief that the economy should serve the greater good even if that means taking direct democratic control of some or even all of it to achieve that aim.

It's even more tricky for the latter philosophy as we don't at least not yet really have a mechanism to implement that in what would be it's likely ultimate more extreme form (Which would likely resemble something more like a post-automation direct democracy).
Traditionally, the top-left is associated with Marxism-Leninism and its offshoots (defined largely by being run by a powerful "vanguard party") and the bottom-left with anarchism and its offshoots (defined largely by opposition to the entire concept of a centralized or hierarchical state). Also, the bottom-left is actually the closest to the "classical" definition of libertarian (~1790-~1950 (USA) or ~1790-present (outside the Anglosphere)) - until Murray Rothbard started using the word, it had no association with free market economics, and indeed, was primarily associated with opposition to that.

Also, what you define as Democratic Socialism had existed for decades as Social Democracy. Indeed, Democratic Socialism is mostly a rebranding of pre-WWI Social Democracy.