Welcome to another developer diary for EU4. This time its about country customization - our efforts to make each country truly unique.

We added National Ideas as a feature to the series in EU3. It was a great concept, because of how it added visible differentiation to countries, and we were really happy with the results. In EU4, we have revitalized the idea system to more properly represent the differences between countries. Our new design for ideas is something that should be satisfactory to the historical crowd and to those who prefer more of an open-ended game.

Idea Groups
Instead of choosing national ideas when various techs are gained, you now have slots for idea groups. Idea groups consist of seven ideas and have a bonus for getting all of the ideas in a group. Picking ideas within a group has to be done sequentially – you can't leapfrog from an early idea in a group to a later one, but you can choose from any available group at any time. You are not forced to buy all ideas in one group before getting ideas from another group.

You have eight possible slots for ideagroups, which is given from various technlogy levels. What makes the game more interesting though, is that when you have selected an ideagroup, you are basically stuck with it. You have chosen the path for your nation. Investing into a full idea group takes quite a while, and can cost several decades worth of power.

There are sixteen possible idea groups you can choose from in EU4, each with seven different ideas in them, and a bonus. They are Plutocracy, Aristocracy, Innovativeness, Religion, Espionage, Diplomatic, Offensive, Defensive, Trade, Economic, Exploration, Naval, Quality, Quantity, Expansion & Administrative. Remember – you can only have a maximum of eight of these, so half of the idea groups will never come into play for your country. You veteran players may notice how many of these idea groups parallel the tracks that used to be domestic policy sliders.

Each of these idea groups use one specific monarch power for buying ideas., To increase in offensive ideas you will be using military power and exploration uses diplomatic power, for example.

National ideas
Every country also has something we call National Ideas, with the most important countries having a set of unique national ideas. Major countries including the Mamelukes and England have seven unique ideas granting them specific abilities. These ideas are not something you spend power on to buy, but, instead, you gain one of these ideas for free for every third idea you buy normally from an idea group.

Every nation also starts with a national tradition: two abilities which define the history and heritage of the country. As we see here, Sweden starts with 5% better infantry and 25% cheaper mercenaries. Countries also have what we call “national ambition”, which is a bonus given when you have gained all seven of your national ideas. This bonus is also unique for each country.

Interface
To make the game more comprehensible and transparent, ideas are represented by icons that correspond to their effects.
Every time this effect is active or needed for display purposes (like in describing country modifiers or religious bonuses) you will see this icon. That way you can tell at a glance the impact your ideas are having on your national evolution.


Next week, we'll be back to talk more about .. lets see… something on the isles..

 

[ParadogsGamer]

Do the national ideas also have to be taken in a specific order?

Judging from the screenshot, yes, they come in a specific order.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

My only complaint about this is that the ideas are grouped by functional category (offensive, defensive) and not real ideas.

They really should be groups like liberty, equality, exploration, tolerance, national greatness, etc. Then each idea should have a mix of benefits spread out by function -- some combat, some diplomacy, etc.

That would make countries play differently. An England following liberty and greatness would be different from a France following equality and pleasure.

As it is, people will all have to choose certain groups for certain playstyles. Everyone is going to take both combat ideas. Everyone who wants to explore is taking that one. And so on. So there's really not going to be much difference between countries, other than majors whose differences are hardcoded in special national ambitions.

 

[Johan]

What I like about this is that the speed at which you buy ideas is entirely up to you.
In EU3 you would always choose a NI as soon as a new slot became available. In EU4 you may choose to spend your power points on other things such as tech instead.

What I would like to know is at what speed the devs bought ideas in the screenshot. As we can see, the two first slots (defensive and offensive) have both been filled out and the third slot (diplomatic) is about halfway through, but the fourth slot has not been unlocked yet because the appropriate tech hasn't been reached.
So, is it normal that you'd usually fill out an entire slot before the next slot becomes available or is just because the devs chose to prioritize ideas over tech?

Its a late start position, as I wanted to show the new sprites..

 

[s3nn3n]

Overall, I'd have to agree with thrashing mad. Although I like the structure of sequentially filling a group (and probably the group distinctions themselves), it is simply too deterministic to never be able to change a group.

There is NO reason for this not to be something that could be moddable even if the devs do not want this feature within the vanilla game. i.e. swap_idea_group code. Voila, problem solved - generic determinism and modded flexibility.

Frankly, the same stands for the limitation on 8 ideas - though I'm sure from a graphic design layout they've boxed themselves in here.

As for National ideas, here too the unique national ideas given to "important countries" should be moddable so that any country can be given chosen unique ideas.

National tradition: Again, should be moddable and could even be picked by player when new game begins.

So in essence - make the generic game deterministic if you think you need to do so for balance or historicity BUT allow us to mod these aspects so we can play an open-ended game (which some of us prefer!).

 

[Johan]

Are the national ideas moddable? Like can i add in some unique national ideas to smaller countries like an Irish OPM?

yes.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Not here to discuss history but the gameplay. Granted EU3 gave you the possibility to change to offensive/def, to cent/decent, to quality/quantity and back. But when did a situation actually need for this to happen. I don't ever remember one single game were I have spent 100 years (100 due to your previous posts) going in one direction (ie Free Trade), then deciding my country will be better off by spending another 100 years to completely change my military/economy/technology etc.

The only time I ever remotely considered it was after westernising and being a naval power. I was stuck Shiite but owned quite a lot of coastal Sunni/Hindi provinces. To get a bigger naval FL I wanted to convert these. In the end it wasn't worth moving back losing on the direction I took my country.

Sure there was an option to change (though for most countries it was clear what one needed to do, whether pluto/aristo, naval/land. And very rarely did one need to radically change their military/economy to compete/expand - AND the investment to do it would be worth it in the long run).

I really like the changes, the sliders were generally very obvious and I really don't see it being 'dumbed' down. Simply my personal opinion on things.

They are dumbed down. It's basically sliders turned into halves, giving only bonuses without associated penalties, with fancy icon and name instead of numerical level, and you can only go in one direction, never back. I often went to narrow-mined to convert provinces, and then switched to innovative to get tech boost. You may also go from quality in case of OPM to quantity once you grown.

This looks like a doubled version of technology. It is tech that should make your trade, production, government, military, etc. always better. Such Ideas replacing DPs should be a choice between two kinds of specialisation, with a trade-off - not doubled bonus added to technology.

 

[Johan]

As it is, people will all have to choose certain groups for certain playstyles. Everyone is going to take both combat ideas. Everyone who wants to explore is taking that one. And so on. So there's really not going to be much difference between countries, other than majors whose differences are hardcoded in special national ambitions.

Currently people tend to not favor military ideas early (of which there are 4 groups), but it all depends on what type of country you play. Don't imagine that just cause an idea group has a similar name to an eu3 concept that it is working anywhere similar.

When playing Venice, its a very very hard choice at start about going administrative or trade for first idea group.

 

[ParadogsGamer]

Its a late start position, as I wanted to show the new sprites..

Right, so I may conclude from that answer that new slots would normally be available way before the first ones are filled?

And the answer leads me to another question that just popped up: If you start at a later date, do you start with a certain amount of power points or do you get to select x number of ideas for free or what will be the mechanic for that?

 

[Dankysh]

They are dumbed down. It's basically sliders turned into halves, giving only bonuses without associated penalties, with fancy icon and name instead of numerical level, and you can only go in one direction, never back. I often went to narrow-mined to convert provinces, and then switched to innovative to get tech boost. You may also go from quality in case of OPM to quantity once you grown.

This looks like a doubled version of technology. It is tech that should make your trade, production, government, military, etc. always better. Such Ideas replacing DPs should be a choice between two kinds of specialisation, with a trade-off - not doubled bonus added to technology.

So you actually do regularly go narrowminded to convert provinces? and this benefitted your nation? The time spent losing the tech gain to gain either a bit more money or FL simply wasn't worth it. PLus having to go back to catch back up. Plus losing time on other slider changes.
The quantity Quality thing makes sense granted. So you spend what 50 years doing that? Well in EUIV you can just buy quality idea by 50 years (I guess) in addition to quality. As Johan said, there was times when nations had both.

I do agree that I would rather they weren't just bonus' and had some trade off. But overall I am happy and completely trust PDS to make a game I will love. I'm sure they know what they are doing, and without playing, can we really make a good judgement about what is a better system, on such limited information?

 

[Naveed]

Really like the new idea system. You've sold your game to me!

Will this new mechanic replace the need for lucky nations since it gives a nice bonus to the historically important nations?

 

[1alexey]

love new system.

As for changing idea groups, i really doubt that it ever happened in EU3 timeframe. Especially considering ideas do not represent who has the power in society, but rather the good institution and ways of doing things, over which the goverment hardly has a lot of controll.

Then, since there are no mutually exclusive trees, you are better off just getting new idea slot and filling it in with the idea you want rather than using your already very limited points of power trying to undo progress and then using it again to fill in new tree.

Even if you want to do so, you will have to sacrifice a tonne of tech and infrastructure to do so, so it is already really bad idea to swap idea group, even if the swap itself would be just free, which it should not be at all.

Then, i do not get why some speciallisations have to be exclusive.

Quantity specialisation is a set of efforts to get larger % of your nation into military service. That doesn`t mean you absolutely have to drop the quality of each individual troop, you just spend more income and so on for that.

Quantity specailisation tries to get as much from each individual soldier as possible, reguardless of how many of them are there.

Looking at those as just a simple choice of recruiting a lot of man or a few man is exactly dumbing the things down.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

I do agree that I would rather they weren't just bonus' and had some trade off. But overall I am happy and completely trust PDS to make a game I will love. I'm sure they know what they are doing, and without playing, can we really make a good judgement about what is a better system, on such limited information?

I'm sure it would be fun game. However, from what we seen so far it would be more 'streamlined', more deterministic, less realistic game. Personally I like p-dox titles to be complex, realistic and plausible - Civilisation or Total War makes for a better 'lite' grand strategy game experience.

 

[Dankysh]

Really like the new idea system. You've sold your game to me!
Will this new mechanic replace the need for lucky nations since it gives a nice bonus to the historically important nations?

Interesting point but I think all nations get a specific bonus, and while the big nations will be better, I don't think nowhere as significant as 'lucky' nations. Plus that would remove the option to have random. I love random cause I like to see alt history empires.

I'm sure it would be fun game. However, from what we seen so far it would be more 'streamlined', more deterministic, less realistic game. Personally I like p-dox titles to be complex, realistic and plausible - Civilisation or Total War makes for a better 'lite' grand strategy game experience.

I do understand where you are coming from. I just don't think it will be 'streamlined'. It might seem that way to you and others, but I do actually think all the changes will have a more complex effect on the game. As shown above, I don't really like deterministic, but a small bonus at the start of the game is hardly that. Just a gently push in where one should go with the nation but that is it. Then you make your own choices were you would like to take that nation. Decide that you went the wrong way? Well (hopefully it will be in) be ready to lose decades of power to try and turn the 'ship' in a different direction.

That's the way I see it upto now. Until I play it, I will not know how it will feel and how complex. I am convinced that PDS will give us a game we all want, while reaching out to the more casual strategy fan (in which it needs to do).

 

[ParadogsGamer]

Really like the new idea system. You've sold your game to me!

Will this new mechanic replace the need for lucky nations since it gives a nice bonus to the historically important nations?

Which bonus are you referring to?
The diary only stated that some countries would get nation-specific ideas which are just different from the generic ones - not necessarily better.

 

[Ruwaard]

Interesting!

So if you start as a minor power and progress to the level of a major power, you can reach the same level of national ideas as an already established major power? Related to this one, will the established major powers have relatively fewer extra national ideas than originally minor powers; or to rephrase it a bit will each nation of the same maximum number of ideas?

 

[Captain Gars]

Interesting!

So if you start as a minor power and progress to the level of a major power, you can reach the same level of national ideas as an already established major power? Related to this one, will the established major powers have relatively fewer extra national ideas than originally minor powers; or to rephrase it a bit will each nation of the same maximum number of ideas?

Maximum number of ideas is the same for everyone.

 

[DominusNovus]

Alright, I, like many others, have been quite confused by this Dev Diary, and I think I get it now. If someone could please verify that my interpretation is correct, that would be appreciated. Unfortunately, many of us have different ways of putting all this together in our heads, it seems. Or, its just so different from EU3, that we've got to fight the urge to try to organize it in our heads the same way.

As opposed to EU3, where you could pick a new idea at a given tech, you can now pick an *idea group* at a given tech. When you have selected a group, you may then being to spend monarch power to purchase its component ideas (in order). Should you buy every idea in a group, you get an additional bonus. Ultimately, this allows for each nation to have 56 ideas, potentially.

So, quick questions:
- Do you need to spend monarch points to open up a new idea group, or do you only spend them when you pick an idea?
- When you pick a new group, do you automatically get the first idea in the group, or do you have to then spend points to get that first idea?
- If you don't get the first idea in a group, is there any inherent bonus to picking a group without picking any ideas in it?
- How does the AI pick their Idea Groups? Do they follow a set script like in EU3, always picking the same ones, or do they weigh any context in the game? For example, if Great Britain has longer borders with its enemies (say, from keeping its holdings in France), are they more likely to pick land military idea groups, or will they still stick to the traditional package of groups?

PS, I'd love to see even more than 16 idea groups, to make our decisions even harder. Jot down a note for the first DLC/patch.

 

[Phelan]

Interesting!

So if you start as a minor power and progress to the level of a major power, you can reach the same level of national ideas as an already established major power? Related to this one, will the established major powers have relatively fewer extra national ideas than originally minor powers; or to rephrase it a bit will each nation of the same maximum number of ideas?

What exactly do you mean by minor and major power?

 

[unmerged(15337)]

Johan and Paradox: I just want to say it looks like you are making good on your promise (threat?) to give players hard strategic choices, with real limitations (you can choose X, but only at the expense of not choosing Y). No doubt this will take a lot of experimentation to get the right balance, but I am confident you'll end up with a great mix in the final design.

Now when do you put EU4 on the market for early orders?

 

[Manic Eskimo]

This is very impressive. I think the best Dev diary so far. I didn't quite get it at first and had some of the same concerns as other posters but I get it now and it is immense. So much work must have gone into this. Thank you very much.