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Welcome to another developer diary for EU4. This time its about country customization - our efforts to make each country truly unique.

We added National Ideas as a feature to the series in EU3. It was a great concept, because of how it added visible differentiation to countries, and we were really happy with the results. In EU4, we have revitalized the idea system to more properly represent the differences between countries. Our new design for ideas is something that should be satisfactory to the historical crowd and to those who prefer more of an open-ended game.

Idea Groups
Instead of choosing national ideas when various techs are gained, you now have slots for idea groups. Idea groups consist of seven ideas and have a bonus for getting all of the ideas in a group. Picking ideas within a group has to be done sequentially – you can't leapfrog from an early idea in a group to a later one, but you can choose from any available group at any time. You are not forced to buy all ideas in one group before getting ideas from another group.

You have eight possible slots for ideagroups, which is given from various technlogy levels. What makes the game more interesting though, is that when you have selected an ideagroup, you are basically stuck with it. You have chosen the path for your nation. Investing into a full idea group takes quite a while, and can cost several decades worth of power.

There are sixteen possible idea groups you can choose from in EU4, each with seven different ideas in them, and a bonus. They are Plutocracy, Aristocracy, Innovativeness, Religion, Espionage, Diplomatic, Offensive, Defensive, Trade, Economic, Exploration, Naval, Quality, Quantity, Expansion & Administrative. Remember – you can only have a maximum of eight of these, so half of the idea groups will never come into play for your country. You veteran players may notice how many of these idea groups parallel the tracks that used to be domestic policy sliders.

Each of these idea groups use one specific monarch power for buying ideas., To increase in offensive ideas you will be using military power and exploration uses diplomatic power, for example.

National ideas
Every country also has something we call National Ideas, with the most important countries having a set of unique national ideas. Major countries including the Mamelukes and England have seven unique ideas granting them specific abilities. These ideas are not something you spend power on to buy, but, instead, you gain one of these ideas for free for every third idea you buy normally from an idea group.

Every nation also starts with a national tradition: two abilities which define the history and heritage of the country. As we see here, Sweden starts with 5% better infantry and 25% cheaper mercenaries. Countries also have what we call “national ambition”, which is a bonus given when you have gained all seven of your national ideas. This bonus is also unique for each country.

Interface
To make the game more comprehensible and transparent, ideas are represented by icons that correspond to their effects.
Every time this effect is active or needed for display purposes (like in describing country modifiers or religious bonuses) you will see this icon. That way you can tell at a glance the impact your ideas are having on your national evolution.


Next week, we'll be back to talk more about .. lets see… something on the isles..

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Captain Gars

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Will it still be possible for modders to put additional eligibility requirement on Idea groups, much as they did with Ideas in EU3?

Each idea group can have a trigger, and you can use all available triggers in it as far as I know.
 

Sun_Wu

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Each idea group can have a trigger, and you can use all available triggers in it as far as I know.
Will it be possible to mod it so that you can select ideas in a non-linear fashion? (like EU3)
 

nOxr

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Can't really tell from the screenshot, but it looks like you will be able to choose for at least two (probably more) idea groups for most of the game (as the second will unlock early, if it isn't unlocked at the start). The ideas already require different types of monarch power, and monarch power already has a number of uses, so you also have to balance ideas vs tech etc. Having the ideas be sequential allows them to have a narrative and to set bonuses without worrying about cherry picking (oh i'll just take offensive ideas 3 and 7, both of which give my generals +1 shock - never mind they represent ideas evolved from 2 and 5). As for having a bunch of prerequisites instead, well, each prerequisite needs to be balanced (your 'needs x fleet' hits hard on small nations, why?) and coded, and risk gaming (I need to be in a war? Quick DOW Qara Konulyu!) and general annoyance (I now have the power for wooden walls! Oh wait, lets build another 15 ships first. grrr).

Just to be clear, I was talking only about the National Ideas, the bonus ideas you get every third time. And if it was randomized it wouldn't be possible to cherry pick them. With the exclusion criterias I was thinking in terms of very simple prerequisites that would be easy to fulfill most of the times, but would still exclude some ideas when you have taken the country in a totally different direction. For example that you would have to have some sort of naval presence to be able to get a navy idea, but that limit could be very low.
 

Captain Gars

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pizi

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Don't you (developers) think that it would be valuable to make national traditions losable?

I'm Sweden and I start with cheaper mercenaries. Fine with me.
If then I play Sweden in a peaceful way, concentrating on trade, my mercenary tradition might be lost after a few decades.
Ideally, it would be replaced by some other tradition - but not necessarily.
 

RedRalphWiggum

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Don't you (developers) think that it would be valuable to make national traditions losable?

I'm Sweden and I start with cheaper mercenaries. Fine with me.
If then I play Sweden in a peaceful way, concentrating on trade, my mercenary tradition might be lost after a few decades.
Ideally, it would be replaced by some other tradition - but not necessarily.

It would indeed be good if ideas could be lost if not used - for instance colonisations ideas should lapse if you don't colonise.
 

pizi

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It would indeed be good if ideas could be lost if not used - for instance colonisations ideas should lapse if you don't colonise.
There are three levels here. You have national traditions, national ideas (specific for your nation) & idea groups.

I was thinking about applying attrition to national traditions. But you are right, it could be applied to ideas as well.
 

Dankysh

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Don't you (developers) think that it would be valuable to make national traditions losable?

I'm Sweden and I start with cheaper mercenaries. Fine with me.
If then I play Sweden in a peaceful way, concentrating on trade, my mercenary tradition might be lost after a few decades.
Ideally, it would be replaced by some other tradition - but not necessarily.

Though these are traditions not ideas. These are based on 100s years (please don't lecture me about historical inaccuracy - I don't care) of that nation building up that tradition. To lose it and have it replaced it should take many many years of 'shifting' your nation to a different tradition. I wouldn't mind if they couldn't be lost, but if they are then it should take a long time and be due to severe neglect. (ie Sweden never using mercs)
 

RedRalphWiggum

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Though these are traditions not ideas. These are based on 100s years (please don't lecture me about historical inaccuracy - I don't care) of that nation building up that tradition. To lose it and have it replaced it should take many many years of 'shifting' your nation to a different tradition. I wouldn't mind if they couldn't be lost, but if they are then it should take a long time and be due to severe neglect. (ie Sweden never using mercs)

Let's say a colonising nation loses all it's coastlines - then should it lose the idea?
 

Dankysh

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Let's say a colonising nation loses all it's coastlines - then should it lose the idea?

Ideas I completely agree with, that some of the ideas should be lost in extreme situations when the idea simply has no meaning anymore (like your example). But with traditions, these should be hard to change/lose. (Though if a naval nation loses all of it's coastal provinces then I guess the tradition of building ships wouldn't be passed down with each generation, but the shipbuilding tradition wouldn't be lost overnight - Most major naval nations tend to have the vast majority of provinces as coasts, so if they lost them all I guess they would barely be a nation at all anymore).
 

Baikal

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Don't you (developers) think that it would be valuable to make national traditions losable?

I'm Sweden and I start with cheaper mercenaries. Fine with me.
If then I play Sweden in a peaceful way, concentrating on trade, my mercenary tradition might be lost after a few decades.
Ideally, it would be replaced by some other tradition - but not necessarily.

Just curious, how would you check if the idea is not used? For instance if you play a trading nation but have a tradition giving military (let's say discipline) advantages? I mean even a trading nation will have an army and use it at some point in time. I think it would be hard to get good triggers to model the loss of some traditions. Even if you play totally militaristic as... say venice and you have a tradition giving trading advantages, how would you set the conditions to loose that tradition? There will always be some trading done, right?
 

pizi

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Just curious, how would you check if the idea is not used? For instance if you play a trading nation but have a tradition giving military (let's say discipline) advantages? I mean even a trading nation will have an army and use it at some point in time. I think it would be hard to get good triggers to model the loss of some traditions. Even if you play totally militaristic as... say venice and you have a tradition giving trading advantages, how would you set the conditions to loose that tradition? There will always be some trading done, right?
I was thinking about possible triggers and it might not be easy within existing framework. Might not be feasible at all as this is a 'nice to have' feature.

Answering your question - percentage of time spent fighting wars during the past 50 years maybe?
Percentage of your income coming from trade during the past 50 years?
Swedish reliance on mercenaries would be more difficult I guess...
 
Last edited:

Andrelvis

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Wow, that's a major bummer.

Indeed. I would much rather have national ideas be spread throughout normal idea groups than have a "national idea group" that aggregates a lot of national characteristics which may not be related to each other.
 

Sun_Wu

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Ideas I completely agree with, that some of the ideas should be lost in extreme situations when the idea simply has no meaning anymore (like your example). But with traditions, these should be hard to change/lose. (Though if a naval nation loses all of it's coastal provinces then I guess the tradition of building ships wouldn't be passed down with each generation, but the shipbuilding tradition wouldn't be lost overnight - Most major naval nations tend to have the vast majority of provinces as coasts, so if they lost them all I guess they would barely be a nation at all anymore).

Uh, if a major naval power had its navy destroyed and was stripped of all her coastal provinces the nation will probably be gone in 50 years or rebels would have taken over.

I was thinking about possible triggers and it might not be easy within existing framework. Might not be feasible at all as this is a 'nice to have' feature.

Answering your question - percentage of time spent fighting wars during the past 50 years maybe?
Percentage of your income coming from trade during the past 50 years?
Swedish reliance on mercenaries would be more difficult I guess...
It's not just as a nation you'd trade, the people would also trade.
 

Jaol

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Each idea group can have a trigger, and you can use all available triggers in it as far as I know.
But no triggers on individual ideas?

That's a shame, IMO. Triggers on individual Ideas (instead of a hardcoded sequential order to the ideas in a Groups) would allow for a lot more modding flexibility.
 

Dankysh

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Uh, if a major naval power had its navy destroyed and was stripped of all her coastal provinces the nation will probably be gone in 50 years or rebels would have taken over.

That was my point with "Most major naval nations tend to have the vast majority of provinces as coasts, so if they lost them all I guess they would barely be a nation at all anymore". I was basing it on a scenario were an idea type coloniser loses all it's coastal provinces and then that it should lose the idea -
Let's say a colonising nation loses all it's coastlines - then should it lose the idea?

I wasn't talking about ideas but actually traditions. So I went a step further and made a scenario based upon the previous one about how to lose traditions; that it should be only in extreme cases and take a long time

But in my scenario, the nation would probably cease to exist anyway so the whole tradition discussion would be moot.

Not sure if that is clear or not :p
 

Captain Gars

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But no triggers on individual ideas?

That's a shame, IMO. Triggers on individual Ideas (instead of a hardcoded sequential order to the ideas in a Groups) would allow for a lot more modding flexibility.

Since the ideas are linear, how can you have triggers on the individual ideas? Either you can pick the group - and then you must be able to take all ideas in it - or you can't take the group.
 

Seli

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Let's say a colonising nation loses all it's coastlines - then should it lose the idea?

Depends a bit if land-colonizers (Russia, Continental Americas etc) use the same mechanics as the naval colonizers.
Most sea-using colonizing nations at that point will probably have been destroyed to a level that a small remaining minor pining for the great past would be modelled well by the idea being permanent.
 
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