Welcome to another developer diary for EU4. This time its about country customization - our efforts to make each country truly unique.

We added National Ideas as a feature to the series in EU3. It was a great concept, because of how it added visible differentiation to countries, and we were really happy with the results. In EU4, we have revitalized the idea system to more properly represent the differences between countries. Our new design for ideas is something that should be satisfactory to the historical crowd and to those who prefer more of an open-ended game.

Idea Groups
Instead of choosing national ideas when various techs are gained, you now have slots for idea groups. Idea groups consist of seven ideas and have a bonus for getting all of the ideas in a group. Picking ideas within a group has to be done sequentially – you can't leapfrog from an early idea in a group to a later one, but you can choose from any available group at any time. You are not forced to buy all ideas in one group before getting ideas from another group.

You have eight possible slots for ideagroups, which is given from various technlogy levels. What makes the game more interesting though, is that when you have selected an ideagroup, you are basically stuck with it. You have chosen the path for your nation. Investing into a full idea group takes quite a while, and can cost several decades worth of power.

There are sixteen possible idea groups you can choose from in EU4, each with seven different ideas in them, and a bonus. They are Plutocracy, Aristocracy, Innovativeness, Religion, Espionage, Diplomatic, Offensive, Defensive, Trade, Economic, Exploration, Naval, Quality, Quantity, Expansion & Administrative. Remember – you can only have a maximum of eight of these, so half of the idea groups will never come into play for your country. You veteran players may notice how many of these idea groups parallel the tracks that used to be domestic policy sliders.

Each of these idea groups use one specific monarch power for buying ideas., To increase in offensive ideas you will be using military power and exploration uses diplomatic power, for example.

National ideas
Every country also has something we call National Ideas, with the most important countries having a set of unique national ideas. Major countries including the Mamelukes and England have seven unique ideas granting them specific abilities. These ideas are not something you spend power on to buy, but, instead, you gain one of these ideas for free for every third idea you buy normally from an idea group.

Every nation also starts with a national tradition: two abilities which define the history and heritage of the country. As we see here, Sweden starts with 5% better infantry and 25% cheaper mercenaries. Countries also have what we call “national ambition”, which is a bonus given when you have gained all seven of your national ideas. This bonus is also unique for each country.

Interface
To make the game more comprehensible and transparent, ideas are represented by icons that correspond to their effects.
Every time this effect is active or needed for display purposes (like in describing country modifiers or religious bonuses) you will see this icon. That way you can tell at a glance the impact your ideas are having on your national evolution.


Next week, we'll be back to talk more about .. lets see… something on the isles..

 

[Dankysh]

Then I am confused, what did they mean by getting a 'free national idea' for every 'third idea' then? I mean, if all the national ideas are available from the beginning, what's the point of a 'free one'? Is there more?

The one at the beginning is a National Tradition. A nice boost designed to give a small push and some flavour to the nation in question (I assume anyway).
National ideas are ideas unique to certain nations. Upon taking your third idea you unlock the ability to use your nation specific idea. So when you have a 4th slot you can then use this nice idea if you want to. It is 'free' as you don't need to pay anything to unlock it (only need to pay to use it - if that makes sense).

Though everything I wrote above could be very incorrect

 

[Alerias]

I hate nation specific stuff, but at least they have triggers and prerequisites and do not appear out of blue. Huge difference with these new, always active, national traits.

Find me someone who can sign me a sworn affidavit that he ever played a game with a major up to the timeframe where their unique decisions became available and DID NOT enact them, and I'll grant the point The triggers were trivial for a player to achieve. In fact, the only purpose the triggers served was to ensure that AI would sometimes fail to meet the prerequisites, and I'd argue it's preferable to have consistency in that regard.

EU4 aims for a compromise between Eu3's freeform/sandbox gameplay and Eu2's railroaded history. Surely many other features will in the future also nudge back countries towards historical paths. Thats desirable IMO, it increases the replay value, make every country more unique. If it was up to me, I'd crank this up a notch by adding triggers to all Ideagroups so that most nations are encouraged to pick historical ideagroups.

Then I am confused, what did they mean by getting a 'free national idea' for every 'third idea' then? I mean, if all the national ideas are available from the beginning, what's the point of a 'free one'? Is there more?

To word it simply: The national ideas need to be unlocked one by one to take effect, and that happens automatically as you progress through the generic idea groups.

 

[Captain Gars]

Then I am confused, what did they mean by getting a 'free national idea' for every 'third idea' then? I mean, if all the national ideas are available from the beginning, what's the point of a 'free one'? Is there more?

There are some confusing about terms here.

A country can unlock and pick 8 out of a total 16 idea groups. These are the same for everyone.

Each country also have a national idea group - the bonus ideas. These are unique for many countries, other less important countries share a generic group. You unlock one of these for "free" for every three ideas picked from any of the idea groups.

Then each country has two starting bonus modifiers - one of the Swedish ones mentioned gave cheaper mercs.

 

[Svip]

There are some confusing about terms here.

A country can unlock and pick 8 out of a total 16 idea groups. These are the same for everyone.

Each country also have a national idea group - the bonus ideas. These are unique for many countries, other less important countries share a generic group. You unlock one of these for "free" for every three ideas picked from any of the idea groups.

I see. That's what I thought it meant.

Then each country has two starting bonus modifiers - one of the Swedish ones mentioned gave cheaper mercs.

Can these bonus modifiers be lost? Either through conditions or formation of countries?

 

[Alerias]

I like that exploration is an idea group, its pretty shrewd. Forces hell of a choice on a would-be colonizer; either you sacrifice an idea group to a notion that will be absolutely useless in the last century of the game, or you wait till you learn about the rest of the world from other explorers, but then you're way behind in the colonization race and have to use military might to create your overseas empire.

Can these bonus modifiers be lost? Either through conditions or formation of countries?

Everything we've been told points to no, though if tag switching is still possible, its a pretty safe bet these bonuses will be tied to your tag.

 

[HolisticGod]

Svip,

Traditions are two inherent, permanent traits at game start. The nation-specific ideas come for every three selected ideas in a group.

Part of the problem is the example used here. I can think of some traditions that make sense (especially if losable-the Ottoman Tolerance, say, which should be lost if one or more hardline religious ideas is picked), and I fully support having at least two traditions per major, but -25% mercenary cost for Sweden is senseless. As has been pointed out, Sweden's famed use of mercenaries came primarily during the TYW, and while Sweden certainly would not have been a major player without them it does not follow that a) Sweden was unique in its use of mercenaries (far from-mercenaries made up significant percentages of all armies fighting in the TYW, although it should be noted that most of these, on either side, were not "Free Companies" but renegade princes with self-financed armies, of whom the most famous, Mansfeld, fought for the Palatinate, not the Swedes), b) Sweden was unique in its dependence upon mercenaries (far from-the Italian Republics all have much stronger claims to mercenary traditions, with real live "Free Company" mercenaries, than does Sweden), or c) use of or dependence upon mercenaries makes them cheaper, like some kind of gun-for-hire volume discount.

Why not give Sweden a boost to MT (or whatever generates leaders)? Or to stability/political cohesion (notwithstanding that Sweden's participation in the TYW began in a civil war)? The one is a bit of historical determinism to flavor countries like Sweden and Prussia that really did rise on the merits of a few gifted leaders. The other reflects, like the Ottoman Tolerance, something of the preexisting culture.

 

[Chamboozer]

There are some confusing about terms here.

A country can unlock and pick 8 out of a total 16 idea groups. These are the same for everyone.

Each country also have a national idea group - the bonus ideas. These are unique for many countries, other less important countries share a generic group. You unlock one of these for "free" for every three ideas picked from any of the idea groups.

Then each country has two starting bonus modifiers - one of the Swedish ones mentioned gave cheaper mercs.

Ah, this makes more sense now. Sounds good, I like it!

 

[Captain Gars]

of whom the most famous, Mansfeld, fought for the Emperor, not the Protestants

I believe you mean Wallenstein - as Mansfeld did indeed fight on the Protestant side.

 

[Koizumi]

Not really sure about this mechanic... If I have understood it properly, it seems that these new national ideas are basically substituting both the old NI and the sliders.
So, while in the EU3 you have both policies which could be gradually changed (with sliders), and permanent modifiers given by NI, now you only have the latter, and moreover you can't pick single ideas but can only choose a whole category. And once you have picked your NIs they are permanent... It really seems too rigid. It is absolutely reaonsable to give a country the chance of gradually changing policies.

It seems quite streamlined... I mean, the model isn't necessarily bad gameplay wise, I'm sure that it may be fun, but it doens't really feel like a traditional EU game.

About the suggestion to allow countries to drop NIs under certain conditions (revolutions and so on), it is probably unfeasible with this system for balance reasons. This is due to the fact that while moving along sliders gives you both bonuses and maluses at the same time, losing ideas simply means that you wasted your previous research, and have to begin form scratch with researching new ideas. With a slider you can have shifts in policy which alter your country, but don't make it weaker overall.
To allow gradual reforms you should have a system of points refunding (as somenone suggested), and to model revolutions you should automatically be given new ideas which substitute the old ones, but that seems a bit tricky to balance, and developers seem not to be considering these options, as they see ideas as permanent features of your country...

So, well, the fact the ideas are inherently positive and have only an opportunity cost (which seems the philosphy behind the system) actually matters and reduces complexity, because this makes changes in policies (both gradual and sudden, due to revolutions) quite hard to model.

And I don't really understand the need of permanent country specific bonuses... that seems a too stereotypical way of adding flavor

Anyways, may ideas provide you also with additional ruler points or not? This doesn't seem the case but was not directly addressed.

 

[HolisticGod]

Gars,

I meant Mansfeld but miswrote (already corrected). Mansfeld began in imperial service, but was primarily in the hire of the Palatinate.

Although, to think of that, the Protestant Wallenstein could pretty easily be called a mercenary himself, fighting for (a deeply and self-destructively ungrateful) Emperor largely for land and cash. But Mansfeld, to my mind, is closer to the mold. Wallenstein died because the Emperor feared he might make himself the master of Germany. Mansfeld died on the run, after as many defeats as victories, like a mercenary captain should.

 

[Captain Gars]

Gars,

I meant Mansfeld but miswrote (already corrected). Mansfeld began in imperial service, but was primarily in the hire of the Palatinate.

I know he had been in imperial service, but this was long before TYW (during which he only served he Protestant side). And Wallenstein wasn't Protestant during the era as he had converted more than a decade earlier. But we're getting off track here

 

[HolisticGod]

Gars,

Aye. I was explaining why I made the mistake. It occurred to me afterward that Mansfeld could not possibly have been in Imperial service given that he visited the Court of St. James and was once thrashed by Wallenstein, so I checked.

His imperial service was an error of youth, to be sure.

As for Wallenstein, my point (or Peter Wilson's point, but, indeed, I see I'd forgotten how early his conversion was, so he can't possibly serve as an example) was that allegiances in the TYW were fluid on all sides, and Mansfeld (a Catholic), among others (not Wallenstein ), was not bound by faith or loyalty. This wasn't a uniquely Swedish recourse, even during the TYW, so why a special bonus (especially one reducing cost)? Armies on both sides were full of Englishmen, Irishmen, Scots (of whom many returned to the isles for obviously reasons during the war), Italians, et al, and many beyond Wallenstein considered switching sides or did so.

 

[Jaol]

This may have been answered already, but if so I missed it:

Do the Ideas in the National Idea Group come in a set order, like the Ideas in regular Idea Groups? Or can you pick any of the 7 NIs each time you get a new NI?

 

[Wallain]

Find me someone who can sign me a sworn affidavit that he ever played a game with a major up to the timeframe where their unique decisions became available and DID NOT enact them, and I'll grant the point

I've done this plenty of times if it would require me to steer my nation in another direction than I was heading.

Thats desirable IMO, it increases the replay value, make every country more unique.

I have to disagree on that it increase replay value. I would actually rather say it decrease replay value substantially. By forcing a historical outcome you are essentially destroying the ability of the game to flow immersively and realistically. Not only that but when you play Sweden you will always get the same sorry experience instead of a new one. If you give unique bonuses to specific tags in a game with over 200 tags, you are going to have a bad time.

 

[Raph]

I hate nation specific stuff

So you're saying you actually like the generic every nation is the same-feel of some of the sandbox PDS games?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Any chance for a "country designer" DLC allowing us to choose which national ideas a country will get, and in later start dates what idea groups have been chosen?

 

[unmerged(63836)]

So you're saying you actually like the generic every nation is the same-feel of some of the sandbox PDS games?

I like uniqueness achieved by great amount of possible combinations of generic mechanics, like in MM mod for example. Or in other words - sandbox, but enriched far beyond barren levels of vanilla.

 

[James The 1st]

I like uniqueness achieved by great amount of possible combinations of generic mechanics, like in MM mod for example. Or in other words - sandbox, but enriched far beyond barren levels of vanilla.

Which doesn't really work for a serious commercial game...

I wouldn't worry too much about Sweden's idea for example, the game is a year from release. I'm sure that will be tweaked by then.

 

[Palfouri]

By forcing a historical outcome you are essentially destroying the ability of the game to flow immersively and realistically. Not only that but when you play Sweden you will always get the same sorry experience instead of a new one. If you give unique bonuses to specific tags in a game with over 200 tags, you are going to have a bad time.

I don't understand how national traditions force anything. Cheaper mercenaries don't force you to buy them, better infantry doesn't mean you can't build a navy. It doesn't force you to play two games the same way, it doesn't mean the AI is going to act the same way every time (or at least, any more repetitively than it usually does) and doesn't mean the game will play out the same way every game.

 

[unmerged(63836)]

Which doesn't really work for a serious commercial game...

Well, it works for CK2. There's no dynasty specific stuff there, all events are generic, and only historical event is Mongol Invasion... It is commercial success AFAIK, unlike EU2 was, which EU4 seems to be a lot like.