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Welcome to another developer diary for EU4. This time its about country customization - our efforts to make each country truly unique.

We added National Ideas as a feature to the series in EU3. It was a great concept, because of how it added visible differentiation to countries, and we were really happy with the results. In EU4, we have revitalized the idea system to more properly represent the differences between countries. Our new design for ideas is something that should be satisfactory to the historical crowd and to those who prefer more of an open-ended game.

Idea Groups
Instead of choosing national ideas when various techs are gained, you now have slots for idea groups. Idea groups consist of seven ideas and have a bonus for getting all of the ideas in a group. Picking ideas within a group has to be done sequentially – you can't leapfrog from an early idea in a group to a later one, but you can choose from any available group at any time. You are not forced to buy all ideas in one group before getting ideas from another group.

You have eight possible slots for ideagroups, which is given from various technlogy levels. What makes the game more interesting though, is that when you have selected an ideagroup, you are basically stuck with it. You have chosen the path for your nation. Investing into a full idea group takes quite a while, and can cost several decades worth of power.

There are sixteen possible idea groups you can choose from in EU4, each with seven different ideas in them, and a bonus. They are Plutocracy, Aristocracy, Innovativeness, Religion, Espionage, Diplomatic, Offensive, Defensive, Trade, Economic, Exploration, Naval, Quality, Quantity, Expansion & Administrative. Remember – you can only have a maximum of eight of these, so half of the idea groups will never come into play for your country. You veteran players may notice how many of these idea groups parallel the tracks that used to be domestic policy sliders.

Each of these idea groups use one specific monarch power for buying ideas., To increase in offensive ideas you will be using military power and exploration uses diplomatic power, for example.

National ideas
Every country also has something we call National Ideas, with the most important countries having a set of unique national ideas. Major countries including the Mamelukes and England have seven unique ideas granting them specific abilities. These ideas are not something you spend power on to buy, but, instead, you gain one of these ideas for free for every third idea you buy normally from an idea group.

Every nation also starts with a national tradition: two abilities which define the history and heritage of the country. As we see here, Sweden starts with 5% better infantry and 25% cheaper mercenaries. Countries also have what we call “national ambition”, which is a bonus given when you have gained all seven of your national ideas. This bonus is also unique for each country.

Interface
To make the game more comprehensible and transparent, ideas are represented by icons that correspond to their effects.
Every time this effect is active or needed for display purposes (like in describing country modifiers or religious bonuses) you will see this icon. That way you can tell at a glance the impact your ideas are having on your national evolution.


Next week, we'll be back to talk more about .. lets see… something on the isles..

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Alerias

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One thing we dont know yet is whether National Ideas are intended to be roughly balanced, so that Major Powers' national ideas are different-but-equivalent to generic 'western minor' National Ideas, or whether they'll be stronger-by-design, reproducing the power differential we saw in EU3 between have-unique-decisions and have-nots ... I guess itll be interesting to find out.
 

Arakhor

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I'm not ploughing through 13 pages to find out if this has been mentioned already, but "Innovativeness" is long and rather clumsy. "Innovation" would be a much snappier name.
 

Avindian

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Really excited; I do like the idea of playing countries with more differentiation.
 

unmerged(103624)

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Nit-Picking the Editing

Your National Ideas all sound wonderful, but they need to agree with eachother in terms of parts of speech: some of them are nouns and others are adjectives. It's not a major issue, which means you should be able to change it in less than twenty seconds, and it only improves the game. So here are the National Ideas as all nouns and then as all adjectives:

Nouns:
Plutocracy, Aristocracy, Innovation, Religion, Espionage, Diplomacy, Offense, Defense, Trade, Economy, Navy, Quality, Quantity, Expansion, Administration.

Adjectives
Plutocratic, Aristocratic, Innovative, Religious, (Espionage doesn't really have an adjective, so I suggest Clandestine), Diplomatic, Offensive, Defensive, (Trade doesn't have an adjective either, so maybe Commercial), Economic, Naval, Qualitative, Quantitative, Expansive, and Administrative.

I love EU and will absolutely love EUIV, I'm sure, but the game is so full of typos and grammatical errors and every time I see one it takes me out of the moment. And it's such a small and simple issue to correct. I'm not trying to antagonize anyone, I know English is likely not your first language. I'm sure you can find volunteers to check some of the more important things and I, along with, I'm sure, dozens of others, would be happy to read through event descriptions and whatnot. Even if you want to wait till it's released and then ask for editing, it would be a great, simple, free way to add some extra polish and remove barriers to immersion.

Thanks for reading.
 

Wallain

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One thing we dont know yet is whether National Ideas are intended to be roughly balanced, so that Major Powers' national ideas are different-but-equivalent to generic 'western minor' National Ideas, or whether they'll be stronger-by-design, reproducing the power differential we saw in EU3 between have-unique-decisions and have-nots ... I guess itll be interesting to find out.
It doesn't matter if they are balanced, what I think is the problem is the apparent fact that you cannot pick your national ideas.
 

unmerged(26764)

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Reading over this thread and giving this more thought, this is the first information about EUIV that legitimately concerns me.

I know this will all turn on how it's implemented, but from what is presented this feels like a feature that's implemented for the wrong reasons. The thought process seems to have been -- how do we evolve the sliders? It wasn't -- how do we make national ideas and country customization as compelling as possible? So while what was developed is perhaps better than sliders in the abstract, in the context of the game this isn't really a good way to go about using ideas and making countries distinctive.

If I may, this seems like the same sort of thought process that led to CIV V. The developers there were so interested in creating "better" and "more streamlined" features that they lost sense of the game. They focused on how to make each feature better, isolated from how it worked, and without asking whether it was the best implementation for the game. Each feature was maybe better than what came before, but the game wasn't.

I appreciate that Johan says that the military ideas aren't always the first choices. But I can't imagine -- if you groups all the military ideas into only two categories -- every player won't eventually have to take both. You're going to have to go to war. You don't want your armies gimped. Why aren't they spread among all the ideas, so each power no matter what path it takes has some military ideas, but different ones? Some are stronger but paired with weaker bonuses to other things, and some are weaker but paired with better bonuses to other things. That's interesting choices.

Or think colonization. If you put them all into one group, the only choice is -- do I want colonies? If you do, you have to take it. Your choice is made pretty much as soon as you load the game, because you know from the start whether you're playing a colonizing power. Every colonizing power will then also have access to all the same bonuses. Why aren't they spread out among different ideas? Then maybe England has colonies that grow faster, while France has colonies that are cheaper. Spain take faster but not cheaper, plus it takes anther idea that makes its colonies more profitable. Plus these are all paired with other benefits to combat and efficiency, some that are better and some that are worse. Real choices. Real differences in gameplay.

Plus, "ideas" that affect everything are what give nations a certain feel. England made different decisions in every aspect of it's nation because of it's values -- English ideas of liberty, a commercial bent, a protestant religious tradition. France made different decisions because of it's values -- high value on aesthetetics, powerful feudal nobility, catholic religious tradition. What makes a country "feel" a certain way aren't easily dividable into functional areas -- it's ways of going about everything.

My two cents. This feels like a possible mistake, and a definite lost opportunity. It's the first thing I've heard about this game that doesn't have me really looking forward to a masterpiece. Now I'm a little worried about a CIV V backwards step.
 

Merrivale

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As for quality/quantity, again, they are not exclusive. The economy is not a subject of quality/quantity trade off,
the quality tries to maximise the effectivness of singe soldier, and while it should be more expeincive to train and supply them, if you have cash to spare, what else is stopping you from equiping your army well?

This is actually an argument in favor of my point. Again, there are some assumptions here about how the system works, but if there are no negatives than in EU4 it will not be more expensive to train and supply your high quality soldiers. It will cost the same, since all you have received are quality bonuses without any corresponding cost negatives.

I'm not saying that things like quality/quantity are exclusive, just that they are in opposition. Countries should be able to do both, but ideally doing both wouldn't get you the full benefits of either. Or it would just be very hard to do.
 

Styrbiorn

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Just checked Wiki page on Northern Seven Years' War, and apparently it was Danes who relied on German Mercenary army while Swedes used mostly levies. What sense does it make in context of this Swedish tradition bonus to always get lots of mercenaries cheaply?

Well, the screen showed is from the late 16th century. I don't know exactly how the ideas work so it's meaningless to comment on the details really. I do agree that cheap mercenaries for 15th century Sweden doesn't make sense. It is still early in the development so I read these diaries rather as general guidelines, rather than going in detail.



As a side-node, most of the "levies" weren't really feudal levies at all: in Medieval Sweden the nobility used propaganda, bribes and persuation to make the free farmers fight for them, often completely voluntarily as they could be quite quick to take up arms against imagined or real wrongs. This went on until the end of the first half of the 16th century. The EU military system is in general really abstracted though (more so than the economy), probably to keep it simple as it would be a daunting task to properly simulate so many different military systems which shifted very much both in time and place.
 

Alerias

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Just checked Wiki page on Northern Seven Years' War, and apparently it was Danes who relied on German Mercenary army while Swedes used mostly levies. What sense does it make in context of this Swedish tradition bonus to always get lots of mercenaries cheaply?

I assume it makes sense because they were quite wealthy and had low manpower, surely they relied on mercs regularly too...

I'm far from an expert at all things Swedish, but surely we can agree some of the Devs have an amount of expertise in that regard? :p
 
Last edited:

Alerias

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It doesn't matter if they are balanced, what I think is the problem is the apparent fact that you cannot pick your national ideas.

Well you can pick 56 out of 63, its not that bad...

Think of the unique 7 as your national DNA, whereas the 56 are your national choices.

This is actually an argument in favor of my point. Again, there are some assumptions here about how the system works, but if there are no negatives than in EU4 it will not be more expensive to train and supply your high quality soldiers. It will cost the same, since all you have received are quality bonuses without any corresponding cost negatives.

This is a trend in all games because it feels better for the player to see only bonuses. Civilization went there, most RPGs, etc. And its FINE, because its purely a psychological thing. In gameplay terms, NOT having the other all-bonus Idea that your opponent purchased ends up mechanically identical to both of you picking 'balanced' Ideas with pros and cons. It feels more satisfying to compare bonuses to most people, so since it doesn't change balance, all-positives is an easy choice to make to broaden the game's appeal.

In short, its implied that if you go all out military, your domestic front and your economy will be weak even if they do not have any penalties applied to them. Simply because the game will be balanced around the assumption you should be encouraged to split your ideas around more evenly, so if you dont do it, you'll be weaker than average in some areas.
 

unmerged(63836)

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Well, the screen showed is from the late 16th century. I have no idea exactly how the ideas work so it's meaningless to comment on the details really. I do agree that cheap mercenaries for 15th century Sweden doesn't make sense. It is still early in the development so I read these diaries rather as general guidelines, rather than going in detail.

Well:

Johan said:
Every nation also starts with a national tradition: two abilities which define the history and heritage of the country. As we see here, Sweden starts with 5% better infantry and 25% cheaper mercenaries.

This is Civilization style 'Russian Hordes', 'German Discipline', 'American Love for Freedom' all over again. They were good in those very abstract games. They are out of place in more serious paradox title IMO, since they are not based on logic - they're based on stereotypes, belief on destiny (Russians would always have massive armies, Germans would always have disciplined amies, Americans would be always freedom loving), and very crude and simplistic interpretation of history (should we give low population countries in 17th century ability to get bazzilion mercs with very talented king bent on conquest/huge religious war? No - we just give it to Swedes, because Gustavus Adolphus).
 

Merrivale

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The negative is that you do not get other bonuses.

That's true and I think that's wrong. What you are saying is that country A, that has taken quality ideas and therefore has more highly trained troops that do more damage, pays the exact same for its troops as country B, which has taken no quality ideas and has "default" level trained troops. It also has the same manpower levels, the same maintenance levels, and the same forcelimits. I understand that the concept is that country A has focused so much on quality that they are able to wring these advantages without having to sacrifice anything in return. I think that's unrealistic.
 

Svip

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Yeah, but it's active from 1444 to the end AFAIK which makes no sense.

The screenshot says 1579 and Johan pointed out it has been slightly manipulated to show a whole bunch of ideas, as well as the sprites.

Edit: Oops, someone else mentioned that.
 

Alerias

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Alerias

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The screenshot says 1579 and Johan pointed out it has been slightly manipulated to show a whole bunch of ideas, as well as the sprites.

He didnt say manipulated, he said he picked the date so we could see those sprites.

The way ideas will work at any post-1444 start point is undoubtedly identical to work buildings and ideas work in Eu3. Your chosen start date will determine which techs and how many idea groups you should have, and you'll get those automatically based on your country's history file.

Any western country that starts in 1579 will therefore logically have 3 idea groups picked for them already.
 

Dankysh

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unmerged(63836)

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Dec 25, 2006
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Yes, how terrible of them to surprise us with this never-seen-before concept that marks a clean break with the series' past :(

If only something had helped us prepare psychologically for this.

:p

I hate nation specific stuff, but at least they have triggers and prerequisites and do not appear out of blue. Huge difference with these new, always active, national traits.

The screenshot says 1579 and Johan pointed out it has been slightly manipulated to show a whole bunch of ideas, as well as the sprites.

Edit: Oops, someone else mentioned that.

this:

Johan said:
Every nation also starts with a national tradition: two abilities which define the history and heritage of the country. As we see here, Sweden starts with 5% better infantry and 25% cheaper mercenaries.

It can't be clearer than that.
 

Svip

Unpaid Ulm PR employee
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Then I am confused, what did they mean by getting a 'free national idea' for every 'third idea' then? I mean, if all the national ideas are available from the beginning, what's the point of a 'free one'? Is there more?
 
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