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Welcome to another developer diary for EU4. This time its about country customization - our efforts to make each country truly unique.

We added National Ideas as a feature to the series in EU3. It was a great concept, because of how it added visible differentiation to countries, and we were really happy with the results. In EU4, we have revitalized the idea system to more properly represent the differences between countries. Our new design for ideas is something that should be satisfactory to the historical crowd and to those who prefer more of an open-ended game.

Idea Groups
Instead of choosing national ideas when various techs are gained, you now have slots for idea groups. Idea groups consist of seven ideas and have a bonus for getting all of the ideas in a group. Picking ideas within a group has to be done sequentially – you can't leapfrog from an early idea in a group to a later one, but you can choose from any available group at any time. You are not forced to buy all ideas in one group before getting ideas from another group.

You have eight possible slots for ideagroups, which is given from various technlogy levels. What makes the game more interesting though, is that when you have selected an ideagroup, you are basically stuck with it. You have chosen the path for your nation. Investing into a full idea group takes quite a while, and can cost several decades worth of power.

There are sixteen possible idea groups you can choose from in EU4, each with seven different ideas in them, and a bonus. They are Plutocracy, Aristocracy, Innovativeness, Religion, Espionage, Diplomatic, Offensive, Defensive, Trade, Economic, Exploration, Naval, Quality, Quantity, Expansion & Administrative. Remember – you can only have a maximum of eight of these, so half of the idea groups will never come into play for your country. You veteran players may notice how many of these idea groups parallel the tracks that used to be domestic policy sliders.

Each of these idea groups use one specific monarch power for buying ideas., To increase in offensive ideas you will be using military power and exploration uses diplomatic power, for example.

National ideas
Every country also has something we call National Ideas, with the most important countries having a set of unique national ideas. Major countries including the Mamelukes and England have seven unique ideas granting them specific abilities. These ideas are not something you spend power on to buy, but, instead, you gain one of these ideas for free for every third idea you buy normally from an idea group.

Every nation also starts with a national tradition: two abilities which define the history and heritage of the country. As we see here, Sweden starts with 5% better infantry and 25% cheaper mercenaries. Countries also have what we call “national ambition”, which is a bonus given when you have gained all seven of your national ideas. This bonus is also unique for each country.

Interface
To make the game more comprehensible and transparent, ideas are represented by icons that correspond to their effects.
Every time this effect is active or needed for display purposes (like in describing country modifiers or religious bonuses) you will see this icon. That way you can tell at a glance the impact your ideas are having on your national evolution.


Next week, we'll be back to talk more about .. lets see… something on the isles..

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Wallain

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My guess would be innovative/religion. While it's not entirely right, and religious countries were often technologically/culturally advanced, player would have to chose between policy of accepting religious diversity/tolerance, and policy of persecution and conversion efforts - you can't have both.
Oh yeah. It would be nice with a sort of different kind of policies for the individual ideas, so picking religion is non-linear for example. You might be a very tolerant religious society ala Denmark/Sweden/Norway today, or very intolerant like Islam or the Inquisition. Or when going with offensive you could put on an emphasis on infantry/cavalry/artillery. :)
 

Kiithis

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Remember, it's not set in stone that these will be permenent. That's what balance testing is for. If it does end up to where you can role back your ideas then all the better, might I even say it would be the same effect of the sliders. I however do not believe in punishing a player for their choices. That being said I like that you can't choose every idea, and I hope that each idea will end up being usefull so that you must give up one bonus for another at the end of the day.
 

Afinati

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Interesting, but still very scarce information. Not a big fan of country specific ideas - that's pretty deterministic, and silly to be honest. Do Swedes for example had it in their genes or was it written in stars that they would always get cheaper mercs? Shouldn't it depend on how country developed throughout the game instead? That's quite disappointing and simplistic mean to simulate history.

Also, would player be really stuck with once selected idea group? How about reforms, sudden changes of policies, or revolutions?

Plus, 17th century Musketeer would look much, much better without bayonet. I know that technically they were used in latter part of the century, but they became widespread in 18th century. Date is 1579 - that just looks wrong. ;)

I TOTALLY agree; no country should have inherent, unmalleable traits.
 

Alerias

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I don't like nation-specific ideas.

Considering they probably replace/subsume the unique decisions majors used to get (Habsburg Dominance, Ottoman Tolerance, L'État C'est Moi, Russian Patriarchate, etc), these major unique decisions will actually leave majors comparatively weaker than in EU3 because the non-majors will now have generic national ideas to balance them against, instead of simply having nothing at all. In DW, Milano will never be as good as Venice because the latter has a bunch of scripted decisions, so who wants to play Milano? This will make more nations competitive, without losing all that flavor, so I'd say its win-win.

Also, this system kills the silly tag switching for bonuses, though I'm left wondering if an Austria that forms the HRE would lose its unique ideas. I assume so.

I hope this wont replace tech too much, though. Ie, that with a tech lead, you can still be a challenge for a nation who's more militaristic in terms of ideas.
 
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Merrivale

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It already has a diminishing return of overfocusing your country on military affairs at the expence of other things, besides, the point of focusing on both offence and defence is lacking, unless you`re up to fight for your survival against very powerfull enemies, and your economy already can back your military, you`re better off choosing one, if any.

I agree the opportunity cost is lost. I just think that logically there are a few of these that exist on opposite spectrums and if you're already really good at offensive warfare, it's harder to train up for defensive warfare than if you were starting from scratch. Quality/quantity is another real good example. There are a lot of diametrically opposed ideas contained in those larger idea groups. Personally I think that adding negatives to the ideas is the way to go, but I know that PI didn't like that concept for EU3 so I doubt they are going to like it here. Just think about quality: you pick an idea that adds elite training (or something like that). Elite training is expensive, takes longer, and weeds out more failures. Shouldn't that have a negative impact on the size of your army, either through your manpower pool, the amount of time to raise a regiment, forcelimits, or maintenance costs? Quantity is sure to increase the size of your army, but if there are no penalties for choosing quality first and it is not harder to get the "opposite" idea, than someone who has invested in quality will be starting from the same point as someone who has not when it comes to manpower, recruitment time, forcelimits, and maintenance costs. And vice-versa. That just does not make sense. You cannot spend years and years focusing hard on increasing the quality of your troops without it negatively affecting the quantity. Sure you can still keep the quantity level up if you also focused on it, but it would be harder for you, having focused on quality, than for some other country that hadn't focused on quality.

But as I said, I don't think PI is going to go for penalties in the ideas, so the next best solution, in my mind, is making it harder to get the opposing ideas.
 

GregElSho

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very intolerant like Islam

Please refrain from gross oversimplifications and old clichés, it's not doing anyone any good. :)

On topic, I think I'm glad to know there are some mutually exclusive ideas, and that the balance of it all seems to have been taken into consideration. It looks better and better. :)
 

ParadogsGamer

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This all seems nice and quite ambitious, no bad surprises here.

So, if I get this right, its ultimately possible for major nations to have 9*7=63 ideas in the very same game? That's going to be alot of fun for you guys to come up with all this stuff and balance it right :)

Keep up the good work.

Not only major nations. All nations can get 63 ideas.
 

unmerged(63836)

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I TOTALLY agree; no country should have inherent, unmalleable traits.

Yeah, that's just silly. It's ok for Civilization but come on - this is paradox game!

Why Gustavus Adophus relied on mercenaries? Because he reigned in times when they were most commonly used, and Sweden had low population base? No. He relied on them because Swedes have genetical predisposition to hire mercenaries/god bestowed such a gift to all Swedish kings. :wacko:
 

Captain Gars

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Lets not get sidetracked here and start discussing terrorism and differences between religions.
 

Captain Gars

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Wallain

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Lets not get sidetracked here and start discussing terrorism and differences between religions.
Apologies, I just felt the need to clarify.

Of course.
Neat. :D

Yeah, that's just silly. It's ok for Civilization but come on - this is paradox game!

Why Gustavus Adophus relied on mercenaries? Because he reigned in times when they were most commonly used, and Sweden had low population base? No. He relied on them because Swedes have genetical predisposition to hire mercenaries/god bestowed such a gift to all Swedish kings. :wacko:

I can only say that I entirely agree with this. I do not have anything against certain unique bonuses being available for choosing as National Ideas. But having the National Ideas locked in place? That is just excessive. It stops a player from moulding their nation.
 

Styrbiorn

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Why Gustavus Adophus relied on mercenaries? Because he reigned in times when they were most commonly used, and Sweden had low population base? No. He relied on them because Swedes have genetical predisposition to hire mercenaries/god bestowed such a gift to all Swedish kings. :wacko:

They call it 'tradition', which I take to mean that it's something the nation has already acquired before the game starts and not some genetical trait.

Anyhow, I like national ideas in general. It makes different nations a bit more varied and variation is good. Johan was quite vague in the post so I guess they are not 100% sure exactly how things will work in the end. We'll see in a year :)
 

unmerged(63836)

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They call it 'tradition', which I take to mean that it's something the nation has already acquired before the game starts and not some genetical trait.

Anyhow, I like national ideas in general. It makes different nations a bit more varied and variation is good. Johan was quite vague in the post so I guess they are not 100% sure exactly how things will work in the end. We'll see in a year :)

Yeah, but it's active from 1444 to the end AFAIK which makes no sense. Clearly, bonus to mercenaries is based on 17th century Swedish history, especially Gustavus Adolphus period, but it's silly and immersion braking to assume that no matter what, Swedes would rely on mercenaries even in 1444. They should be able to enact such policy of reliance on mercenaries in the game, and other countries like Denmark for example should be able to do so as well. There was nothing special, no magical force, that characterised alleged historical Swedish ability to hire cheap mercs in the period of 1444-1800.
 

1alexey

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I agree the opportunity cost is lost. I just think that logically there are a few of these that exist on opposite spectrums and if you're already really good at offensive warfare, it's harder to train up for defensive warfare than if you were starting from scratch. Quality/quantity is another real good example. There are a lot of diametrically opposed ideas contained in those larger idea groups. Personally I think that adding negatives to the ideas is the way to go, but I know that PI didn't like that concept for EU3 so I doubt they are going to like it here. Just think about quality: you pick an idea that adds elite training (or something like that). Elite training is expensive, takes longer, and weeds out more failures. Shouldn't that have a negative impact on the size of your army, either through your manpower pool, the amount of time to raise a regiment, forcelimits, or maintenance costs? Quantity is sure to increase the size of your army, but if there are no penalties for choosing quality first and it is not harder to get the "opposite" idea, than someone who has invested in quality will be starting from the same point as someone who has not when it comes to manpower, recruitment time, forcelimits, and maintenance costs. And vice-versa. That just does not make sense. You cannot spend years and years focusing hard on increasing the quality of your troops without it negatively affecting the quantity. Sure you can still keep the quantity level up if you also focused on it, but it would be harder for you, having focused on quality, than for some other country that hadn't focused on quality.

But as I said, I don't think PI is going to go for penalties in the ideas, so the next best solution, in my mind, is making it harder to get the opposing ideas.
You see, the major point of focusing efforts is because you can not afford everything at once.

While you may choose to focus on offencive, that doesn`t mean you have to have really bad fortification as you always had to in EU3, you can have both, if you give up alot of other things.

Beside defencive and offencive actions an preparations are not mutually exclusive. the forts and local defences, milita and other things very usefull for defencive doesn`t become bad if you`r focus is on offence, they become bad if you do not contribute needed resourses to maintain and update them.

As for quality/quantity, again, they are not exclusive. The economy is not a subject of quality/quantity trade off,
the quality tries to maximise the effectivness of singe soldier, and while it should be more expeincive to train and supply them, if you have cash to spare, what else is stopping you from equiping your army well?

Again, if your economy can handle it, why not to spend time and resourses to maximise the size of your army?

The entire "quality/quantity trade off" is only there assuming your have same resourses, and you have to prioritise.

That is not the case in EU, since the money supply relative to manpower can greatly varry, and only very rich country should actually get full use of both quality and quantity, that especially goes for empires, that can have large class of subjugadet people that will pay taxes and fees, but will not fight for the regime.

The undelying difficulty of focusing on both, as in real world should be the economy that can feed such army.

Then you could argue that Prussia, rev. France, and probably Sweden were both quality and quantity focused.
 

unmerged(63836)

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Just checked Wiki page on Northern Seven Years' War, and apparently it was Danes who relied on German Mercenary army while Swedes used mostly levies. What sense does it make in context of this Swedish tradition bonus to always get lots of mercenaries cheaply?
 
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