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Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 2nd of April 2024 - Tatars, Central Asia and Mongol Hordes

Welcome back to another Development Diary! This week we will talk about the Hordes that occupy the lands between the Pontic Steppe and Mongolia.

Before we start, I want to share with you some changes we made, based on the feedback we received since the last development diary:
  • The formable countries that required Tech 20, will now be unlocked with Tech 18. This will affect all formable countries that previously required Tech 20.
  • Andean Empire and Divine Kingship now allow their country to use to use Divine ideas instead of Aristocratic ideas.
  • High-American nations will be able to benefit from Obsidian sources.
And with that, let's get into today's content.

By 1444, the era of Genghis Khan was long gone and only the remnants of its successor states populated the steppes. The descendants of the Yuan dynasty had found themselves under the Oirat Khanate, which would lead to a conflict with the Ming dynasty known as the Tumu Crisis; the Golden Horde had just recently disintegrated into various other states; the Uzbeks would begin their migration south into Bukhara after being beaten by the Sibirs and Kazakhs; and lastly, Moghulistan, the successor of the Chagatai Khanate, would be embroiled in a civil war.

Some of the historical events mentioned are already present in the game, such as the dwindling Tatar Yoke in Russia, the unrest of the Kazakh and Sibir people, and the Tumu Crisis in China. As the successors can roughly be split into three groups, the Successors of the Golden Horde, the Khans of Central Asia, and the Mongols of Northern Yuan in the East, we decided to create three separate branches for them.

Before discussing the content, I briefly want to mention a change to the nation of Chagatai. In 1444, the Khanate was splintered for multiple decades and the remnants were instead known as Moghulistan. For that reason, Chagatai is no more; instead, the nation has been renamed more appropriately:

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With that out of the way, let us start with the conquest trees. All the Horde mission trees share some common conquest missions, but depending on the region the overall progression will be different:

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Note: as always, all art shown in this Development Diary is placeholder.

With the Golden Horde splintered, the nations of Crimea, Kazan, Great Horde, and Nogai will have their starting missions be about reuniting the lands there, as well as combating the increasing power of the Muscovites.

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After your conquest of Russia and reaffirmation of the Tatar Yoke, you will be able to reach the furthest western extent of the Mongol Conquests into the Carpathian Basin.

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Having talked about the Western conquests, let’s now turn our attention to the east into the steppes of Central Asia and beyond if you want to assert your dominance of the hordes and restore the Mongol Empire.

For the Tatar Hordes, this will mean that their rewards will overlap with other hordes as well. Each Region of the Hordes will have access to a unique branch of their Conquest mission:
  • Tatars will have unique missions about the Tatar Lands and Russia
  • Central Asian Hordes have unique missions about Central Asia and Persia
  • Oirat and Mongolia will have unique missions about China
These branches will not be absent for the others, for example, the Tatars and Central Asian Hordes will have access to the same mission tree concerning China, and the same goes for the other combination. So with all of that in mind, the next few missions will be shared with either Central Asian Hordes and Mongols.

With this explanation out of the way, let us look at the Central Asian and Chinese parts of the conquest tree. Central Asia in 1444 was much more split than what is shown in the game. The Kazakhs and Sibirs were effectively their own tribes, which is why that is represented for Uzbek as extra unrest. They were not made into independent nations at the start though; however, as both the Mongols and the Tatars you’ll be able to make Kazakh into your own subject through the tree, feeding them their core land should you wish to do that. Once you conquer most of Central Asia, you’ll be able to turn them into an incorporated vassal, which are subjects that are more closely aligned with your own country, making them cheaper to integrate.

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Moving on to the lands of China, you’ll be able to press the claims of the Yuan dynasty for yourself, making them a Mongol Brother Realm, as well as a new evolving modifier called ‘Like a Dragon’, that will help your nomadic playstyle once you conquer China. During your conquest, you will of course be able to adapt your country to the new challenges and people that are now part of your realm.

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Going to the lands of Persia, the missions there will revolve around the re-establishment of the Mongol Rule and the Ilkhanate state which was destroyed before the era of Timur. Since the region is dominated by the Timurid dynasty and no direct successor, the Central Asian hordes will be able to reform the Ilkhanate TAG, should they ever wish to. As for the rest, they’ll be able to set up their own Brother Realm in the lands there. The missions there also allow you to go even further than the Mongols managed to, expanding your reach from Persia into Hindustan and Egypt.

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When you manage to unite all of the Mongol Empire you’ll be able to finish the last mission in the conquest part of the tree, ‘Pax Mongolica’. With the full force of a unified Mongol Empire under your control, the world will truly be the grazing ground for your horses.

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Before we proceed to the differences in the Mongol and Central Asian missions, the Mongol Empire has its requirements slightly changed. You will no longer be required to directly own all the Mongol Empire provinces but instead, you will be able to form them using subjects as well, since the Mongol Brother Realms would normally lock you from reforming the once great state, and for all Chagatai enthusiasts, Chagatai will be able to form them as well (more on that in the Central Asia part of the development diary). Additionally, the Tier 1 Great Mongol State reform that the Mongol Empire has will now give you access to Siberian Frontiers as well in order to make it possible to take the rest of the Siberian lands.

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I mentioned the Mongol Brother Realm a few times and now it is time to explain a bit more in depth what these are. In order to allow for the player to have all of the successor states under one banner, the Ilkhanate, Golden Horde, and Yuan will now be able to become subjects under the strongest successor. They will provide little to no Liberty Desire but they will pay you extra money for being vassals, as well as provide bonuses to your cavalry. They will also be able to declare their own wars. While this is the intention to keep for now, we would like to hear your opinion on this subject and what you think.

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Moving on from this, let us look at some of the differences between the Mongol and Central Asian sections, starting from the remnants of the Yuan dynasty.

The Oirat will now have a bit more options available during the Tumu Crisis. Should they be able to capture the Chinese emperor Zhu Qizhen they will be able to leverage his captivity for a justified conquest in China. The Tumu Crisis mission will allow you to transform your modifier “Captured the Emperor” to grant Core-Creation Cost and Province War Score Cost. The “Reuniting the Mongols” Event will also be present in the Mission Tree, allowing you to unify the Mongol cultures into one.

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The Russian and Tatar section of the conquest for both Mongols and Central Asian Hordes will revolve around conquering the remnants of the Golden Horde and having the choice to make them a Mongol Brother Realm, as well as gaining the ability to recruit Cossacks.

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Lastly, let us look at the differences for Central Asians. As mentioned before, Chagatai had been fragmented during the 14th Century and Moghulistan survived as a successor state. You’ll be able to restore them should you complete the Unification of Chagatai mission, which will allow you to pursue forming the Mongol Empire. Other missions revolve around the Kazakhs as well as the central position of the Silk Road these nations sit in. Once you decide to move to Persia, you’ll also gain the choice to reform the Ilkhanate.

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While conquest is no doubt a central part of any horde gameplay, this is not all the missions will have to offer, after all, conquest means nothing if you can’t stabilize the realm. A second part of the mission will delve into your internal administration and economic dealings. These will be available to all of the previously mentioned groups, while Yuan specifically has a different branch than the others. Additionally, a small tree of branching missions will offer you the choice between tolerance and devotion to your faith.

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The Hordes had to rely on a tributary system to amass their wealth, and this is represented under the Strengthen the Basqaqs Mission. While Tributaries might not be a desirable long-term goal of your campaign, the additional rewards will be able to get your Host of Armies off the ground.

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As the Horde Administration differs from a standard feudal society, the game struggled a bit with an accurate representation of this. These missions will allow you to adjust and reform your interactions with the Tribal Estate, elevating the nobles among the tribes, and getting rid of some of the destabilizing issues a horde will have to deal with at the start of the game. With things such as Tribal Absolutism, a privilege that benefits more from your Max Absolutism, giving you an incentive to keep your estate privileges to a minimum in order to make the most out of it, and forcing your Tribes to accept even the youngest child as the legitimate khan.

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Something that is not inherently linked to your status as a horde, but the region you occupy, is the Silk Road and your control over the important trading posts of the regions. By controlling the important centers of trade along the Silk Road and its expansions into Persia you will be able to control the flow of trade between the eastern and western parts of your empire.

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Lastly, let us talk about Yuan. When we worked on Domination, it was very requested by the community to make available to them the new mission tree section for the Emperor of China. Now, we’ve decided that the owners of the new DLC will get access to the Emperor of China missions, and we're also making it possible for the owners of Domination to have those missions available while playing with the old Mongol mission tree, which is part of the base game. Please, also remember that this is only working with the Mandate of Heaven EoC mechanics, so you also need that DLC for them to appear and be playable.

This is not all that changes around Yuan, their flavor missions will be quite different in order to represent both the Mongol and Chinese character of the former dynasty.

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In this combination, Yuan will have access to quite a sizable mission tree with 65 missions. The flavor part of the Yuan tree revolves around the mix of Chinese and Mongol characters that Yuan had, allowing you to be highly expansionist whilst also backing these conquests with a highly efficient bureaucracy.

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And this concludes this week's Development Diary! Next week @Ogele will be back, showing off the content of the Timurids and Mughals!

Before we say goodbye, a word from FatherLorris. Let the army composition comments commence!!!

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Does Mongolia now share mission tree with Oirat? Or are they stuck with nothing since they start out as a subject? It wasn't entirely clear from the DD.
I believe that all the starting Mongol nations (Oirat, Mongolia, Korchin) get the same Yuan mission tree, while all the non-Mongol Altaic nations get the Ilkhanate/Chagatai mission tree, and all the Tatar nations get the Golden Horde tree. At least, that's what they seem to be implying.
 
Might the "Brother Realms" be overpowering the Mongols a bit too much? The real life Mongol Empire never had a stable succession, and devolved into warfare both between and within its "Brother Realms" less than a generation after Genghis Khan's death. Even if they were all "Mongol" run, a resurrected Yuan, Golden Horde, and Ilkhanate would be large states with non-trivial conflicts of interest that would lead to, well, conflict.

Other than that, nice to see the hordes getting mission trees. Is the Bukhara formable still in the game?
 
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Will the Hordes receive any content revolving around Banners; specifically buffs to them through missions? Qing does, and it would also make sense for tags like Yuan to, seeing as the Jurchen tribes were influenced by the Mongols.
 
could you please give Mongol Empire some ideas well your at it.
Also could Jurchans get a touch up as they were not fully nomadic and actually had farmers
Tbh Mongol Empire doesn't really need an idea set, Golden Horde & especially Yuan have some of the best national ideas in the game already (I would even argue that Yuan's are the best NIs in the whole game) so it would be almost impossible to top them, and if they aren't better then why would you ever take them?
Also the Jurchens are already handled somewhat differently to other Hordes, since they start with Feudalism embraced & already have mission trees pushing them towards settling feudal.
 
The new mission tree set seems very fun for nomadic play, particularly interested in the new incorporated vassal and brother realms. I'm a little disappointed that this mission tree set is more geared towards reestablishing old medieval empires and doesn't seem to have any content for settling down and doing more to reform from the nomadic hordes to more centralized early modern states. I was hoping to see a couple branching missions or alternative rewards depending on government type, maybe even getting a reform for great mongol state for non tribals.
 
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I wonder if Tibet and Dai Viet can also get the EoC mission?
I haven't played as them since EoC mission update, but looking at the wiki, I don't think they have access to EoC mission right?
Both have very long history with China (to this day even), so I kinda feel they deserve to have access to EoC mission.
I've been asking for at least the sinicize cultures to get EoC mission tree.

And it seems for Mongol Empire to get it is to form it from Yuan.
 
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The four successor states should have access to the Tribes estate despite reforming into another goverment from a horde. Maybe via mission, or goverment reform associated to the altaic/tatar group?
 
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I'm so glad that hords get some love in the next DLC. Yet, there is one thing that I need to ask about: Will forming Yuan still force you to change culture to Sino-Altaic? In my opinion it would be great if that change was optional, epsecially if you form Yuan not by becoming the EoC but by destroin the Empire of China alltogether.
One of the reasons for that is that the Oirat and Mongolia get the mission Unification of Mongolia that gives them choice to either accept other mongolic cultures and get +3 accepted cultures slots or unifying all mongolic cultures into one. If one aims at forming Yuan then there is no reason to unite cultures other than roleplay, because those cultures get turned into Sino-Altaic anyway when you form Yuan.
(Other reason is that I would just love to see that magnificent blob of Mongol on the culture map.)

Alternatively if we can't keep Mongol culture after forming Yuan then maybe add some additional bonus to uniting cultures into Mongol, like more manpower in primary culture. If this formation or event stays unchanged there is really no point other than rolepay not to take +3 accepted cultures slots.
 
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I'm so glad that hords get some love in the next DLC. Yet, there is one thing that I need to ask about: Will forming Yuan still force you to change culture to Sino-Altaic? In my opinion it would be great if that change was optional, epsecially if you form Yuan not by becoming the EoC but by destroin the Empire of China alltogether.
One of the reasons for that is that the Oirat and Mongolia get the mission Unification of Mongolia that gives them choice to either accept other mongolic cultures and get +3 accepted cultures slots or unifying all mongolic cultures into one. If one aims at forming Yuan then there is no reason to unite cultures other than roleplay, because those cultures get turned into Sino-Altaic anyway when you form Yuan.
(Other reason is that I would just love to see that magnificent blob of Mongol on the culture map.)

Alternatively if we can't keep Mongol culture after forming Yuan then maybe add some additional bonus to uniting cultures into Mongol, like more manpower in primary culture. If this formation or event stays unchanged there is really no point other than rolepay not to take +3 accepted cultures slots.
Eu4 does culture weird, Yuan dynasty only ended in 1366, and was also considered to have adopted Chinese culture. So does this mean that by 1444 the Mongolian people had abandoned all sinicization?

Either way, hopefully Project Caeser does culture better.
 
Now, we’ve decided that the owners of the new DLC will get access to the Emperor of China missions, and we're also making it possible for the owners of Domination to have those missions available while playing with the old Mongol mission tree, which is part of the base game. Please, also remember that this is only working with the Mandate of Heaven EoC mechanics, so you also need that DLC for them to appear and be playable
least convoluted pdx business practice
 
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Well it seems that there are many posts about the cultural distribution among Hordes XD

The “Reuniting the Mongols” Event will also be present in the Mission Tree, allowing you to unify the Mongol cultures into one.

Before this DLC, nobody chooses option.a becase forming Yuan can automatically unify them into one, while option.b can provide culture slots which is a very strong buffs. Except for this, becoming an empire can also have all these acceepted so, I don't see any meaning in keeping this event.

BTW I like most of the contents in this diary. There are things that be happening I guess so, best wishes and take care...?
 
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Eu4 does culture weird, Yuan dynasty only ended in 1366, and was also considered to have adopted Chinese culture. So does this mean that by 1444 the Mongolian people had abandoned all sinicization?
Since the Mongolian sinicization had almost never happened, there were almost nothing to be abandoned.

Personally speaking, I don't support the sinicization on Yuan's formation that much, which makes me feel that when Mongols came back, they learnt from their failure in 13-14C and decided to adopt a more sinicized position to rule, just like the Manchu in our time line.

But I don't deny the posibility of Mogolian sinicization, especially when they adopt confucianism and rule like a Chinese Emporor instead of a Khan. Well then... kinda har to say.
 
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I've been asking for at least the sinicize cultures to get EoC mission tree.

And it seems for Mongol Empire to get it is to form it from Yuan.
In early 1.35 sinicize cultures do have access to EOC tree. But it's not automatically being positioned behind the existed trees so, there were bugs that missions cover each other.

So I would reorginize this description:
At least the tags whose historical primary cultures can be sinicized, and granted with specific contents, to get EOC mission tree.
Or should I say:
At least the mission trees whose tag's primary culture can be sinicized, to get EOC mission tree.
Here we get to the point: EOC trees are designed for mission trees because of position things, and trees are designed for tags, directly speaking. So:

Ah, at least there are two trees to be added, except for the main character Yuan in this diary:
  • Copy the trigger of Dai Viet trees and merge it to a new Vietnamese EOC tree
  • Copy the trigger of Tibetan trees and merge it to a new Tibetan EOC tree

There are also some 1.31 DLC Origin trees have something to do with EOC things like Siamese trees or Burma trees but, that's kinda more far that the two above.
 
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Great dev diary, looking forward to play after the update. Here is a couple of suggestions:

1. Kazakh Khanate must be a Khanate when released or formed in any other way. When you release Kazakh from Uzbek, they are released as a Malikate. This is wrong, as Kazakhs were one of the centralized and strong nomadic hordes and khanates at that time. Kazakh Khanate had a governance system, laws, cities, taxes, trade and legitimate Genghisid dynasty (until 19th century). Malikate is a completely foreign construct of Arabic tribes of the desert, not known to nomadic Turkic people of any level of development.

2. Mongol Brother Realm is a good idea. I think it’d be great to show internal struggles for power as well – so allow internal civil wars in some way, maybe as limited wars which do not destroy the Realm and relations between members. Also, it’d be great to introduce kurultais – democratic procedures where new Great Khans would be elected, so that the leader of the Realm can be changed peacefully. Also, they could discuss big wars against common enemies at kurultai, maybe adopt some joint policies.

3. Ilkhanate branch for Central Asian Hordes (most of it) is wrong. Historically Ilkhanate was created on the territory of the youngest son of Genghis khan – Tului, and his son, Hulagu, and was ruled by Hulaguid dynasty. It mostly incorporated territories of Persian speaking people, reaching to the modern territories of Turkmenistan, South Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. So, Persian speaking state, with a different dynasty. It had no historical connection to Central Asian Hordes. It’d be strange for Uzbek or Kazakh to restore it.

4. It is better to either expand Golden Horde branch to Central Asian Hordes or create a separate branch or sub-branch for East Golden Horde – which would be also historic, see White Horde for reference. This way you could both represent historic connection and focus of Central Asian hordes to unify former Golden Horde lands, at the same time giving them their distinct Central Asian aspirations – like conquering Tashkent, Bukhara and Samarkand. As of now, you are dissolving Central Asian Hordes’ uniqueness into Tatar Western nomads and South Central Asian settled nations’ missions, which already had well-established characteristics, and in fact, go against the claimed focus of the DLC on Hordes.

5. Also, please add Chagatai as the fourth or fifth (if you add White Horde) Brother Realm, this would create more balance (as Ilkhanate is too big) and be more historic (see above).

6. Please add more economic importance to Bukhara, Samarkand, Turkistan and Tashkent and represent it in countries’ missions. These were very well-developed cities, true centers of culture, economy, and trade in the entire Eurasian region. It was one of they key political goals of every state in the region to control these cities.
 
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Since the Mongolian sinicization had almost never happened, there were almost nothing to be abandoned.

Personally speaking, I don't support the sinicization on Yuan's formation that much, which makes me feel that when Mongols came back, they learnt from their failure in 13-14C and decided to adopt a more sinicized position to rule, just like the Manchu in our time line.

But I don't deny the posibility of Mogolian sinicization, especially when they adopt confucianism and rule like a Chinese Emporor instead of a Khan. Well then... kinda har to say.
The historical narrative is that the "foreign" or "non-Han" dynasties became Chinese. I doubt there's many Yuan/Mongol/Chinese historians out there, let alone any that can jump in and say definitively either way.

Going by paradox logic of Byzantium having cores in Balkans, Mongolia should still have cores on all of China region.

My 2 cents is it should already start sinicized.

I'm really curious how Ceaser will try to present it.
 
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One thing I would add is that I think "Mongolia" is a strange name for this time period, it only really became a thing in the modern period. I think it should be changed to Northern Yuan instead.

Furthermore, I think that when Oirat annexes them, they should be able to change their name to it. I would tie it to the 'unite the Mongols' mission (the one that lets you change all the cultures to Mongol or accept all 4 Mongol cultures).
1. Mongol Empire name officially declared in 1206 by its founder Chinggis Khaan. So there was Mongolia and Mongols in 1444.

2. Oirats are on of the First Mongol Clans that founded Great Mongol Empire in 1206. Oirats are the Mongols of the West of Altai Mountain.
 
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