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Welcome to another Europa Universalis IV development diary – Number 23 in fact. We have already done three more development diaries than we’d done for Europa Universalis III, and we still have about 30 more possible diaries to write.* There is still a lot to talk about when it comes to diplomacy, naval combat, westernization, economy, the Reformation and more.* And yes, we also need to make country guides for Poland and Norway.

Today, however, we’re talking a little more about diplomacy, where we introduce a new concept, and talk about how a few others have changed.

Coalitions
Sometimes you simply do not want to ally with someone because they are likely to drag you into a bunch of wars that you have no interest in, but, at the same time you think they would make a great ally for the war you do want to wage.

EUIV addresses this problem with the coalition system, a mutual alliance that is directed against a single country. You have an alliance leader, say the Papacy, who organizes an alliance say directed against Venice. Then they sign up countries like France, Milan and Austria. The alliance only fires in the event of war with Venice but if war does erupt all countries in the Coalition will be called in.

Initially, this power is only open to Catholic countries and can only be organized by the Papal Controller, reinforcing the idea that the Pope is still quite important in the early centuries of the game. Later on though, advances in diplomatic technology will allow any country to organize its own coalition against a common rival. Some Dynamic Historical Events can form some historic coalitions if the stars are aligned properly, as well.

Coalitions become, then, a great way to contain a growing threat or hated neighbor since everyone signs on to fight before the war starts. It can be challenging to get a coalition moving, since you need your potential allies to see the strategic threats in the same way you do. But it is a valuable tool that reinforces common interests.

Relations
We talked earlier about the change from bilateral relations to a system where you can hate me, but I don't hate you. (I don’t hate anybody!) This means we had to devise ways to change the asymmetrical love-hate relationship.

- Improve Relations
To improve relations, you send a diplomat to their capital, and he will slowly increase their opinion of your country. There is a cap though, currently at +200 approval, on how much a diplomat can affect what a country think of you, so you may need to address or wait out the other reasons why they dislike you as well if you want to get perfect relations.* Your diplomat stays in the foreign capital until he is recalled, so this does limit your diplomatic freedom a little. If you recall your diplomat, the 'improved relations' opinion will slowly decay by about 3 points each year.

- Insults
If you want to make some not like you, and maybe poke them into a war, say something mean. Insulting someone, reduces their opinion of you by -25 for ten years, and will also give them a casus belli on you for a year.

Overextension
In dev diary #13, we talked about how overextension worked.*This has now changed after lots of testing and tweaking, as the original design punished early expansion, while ignoring the problem of mid and late-game landgrabs.

Now, your overextension is now a value directly related to the amount of basetax you earning from non-core provinces. So a basetax 6 province gives you 6% overextension, no matter how big you are. So, even a normal conquest in a major war, say taking 2 or 3 rich provinces, can net you a significant overextension penalty which calls for a period of consolidation.

Coring Provinces
Since overextension changed, so has how you add provinces to your core. First of all, the price in administrative power points scales depending, again, on the basetax of the province. There are several ideas that decrease it for you, and increase it for your enemies. Secondly, coring is no longer instant. It takes 3 years, not counting any modifiers, to core it. All the while you still have the overextension penalties to cost of stability and to your revolt risk. Larger countries core province much more slowly, as each non-overseas province you own will increase coring times by 5%.

An overseas province of your own culture (such as a colony) is still instant to core, and costs 10% of the normal cost to core. We don’t want to discourage you from settling the New World because of delays in adding them to your core list.

For those of you who can read our script files, this what you pay for being overextended, with each factor mulitplied with the overextension percentage.
Code:
over_extension = {
	foreign_merchant_compete_chance = -4.0
	stability_cost_modifier = 2.0			
	papal_influence = -10
	mercenary_cost = 2.0
	diplomatic_reputation = -10
	global_revolt_risk = 20
}

Hope you'll enjoy a quick World Conquest now that you know how easy it will be.. And here is a completely unrelated screenshot.. just cause you know..

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Korsan82

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You seem to think that a colony is a golden egg and that an ordinary province is worthless. Spain would get little or no tax from his colony and basically no manpower and needs a fleet to get the tariffs. The Ottomans will get tax and manpower from their North African holding and do not need a fleet to take advantage of it. Is one really that much better than the other?

Hmm this sounds interesting though... So if the Spanish armada is sunk will this increase the chance of North African holdings uprising for independence from Spain? This would be very nice.
 

Wallain

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Hmm this sounds interesting though... So if the Spanish armada is sunk will this increase the chance of North African holdings uprising for independence from Spain? This would be very nice.
Where did you get that idea? Captain Gars basically just told how tariffs work in EU3 (and now in EU4). But yeah, it would be nice, I agree with that.
 

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Where did you get that idea? Captain Gars basically just told how tariffs work in EU3 (and now in EU4). But yeah, it would be nice, I agree with that.

Hopefully, what it really means is that without the fleet to control both trade and tariffs, the colonies become economically unfeasible to garrison against both domestic and foreign attack.
 

Alerias

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You seem to think that a colony is a golden egg and that an ordinary province is worthless. Spain would get little or no tax from his colony and basically no manpower and needs a fleet to get the tariffs. The Ottomans will get tax and manpower from their North African holding and do not need a fleet to take advantage of it. Is one really that much better than the other?

Its a given that the strategy will be to create by any means neccessary 'overseas' status for provinces you want to conquer, and only after they've been cored at pennies on the dollar, we will build land links to forgo the penalties.

For instance, a smart Ottoman player will ensure to seize and core Egypt before he conquers Syria. This way, you get the best of both worlds :)
 

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Its a given that the strategy will be to create by any means necessary 'overseas' status for provinces you want to conquer, and only after they've been cored at pennies on the dollar, we will build land links to forgo the penalties.

For instance, a smart Ottoman player will ensure to seize and core Egypt before he conquers Syria. This way, you get the best of both worlds :)

Nah, this won't help at all. Read the DD more closely:

Coring Provinces
(...)
An overseas province of your own culture (such as a colony) is still instant to core, and costs 10% of the normal cost to core. We don’t want to discourage you from settling the New World because of delays in adding them to your core list.

(Emphasis mine)

Overseas provinces are only easier to core if they are of your own culture to begin with. Since they are overseas, it is likely they won't be of your own culture unless they were a colony, so foreign conquest do not have this benefit. A smart player would conquer Syria before Egypt, since otherwise the Egyptian provinces will be nearly useless.
 

Alerias

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Nah, this won't help at all. Read the DD more closely:



(Emphasis mine)

Overseas provinces are only easier to core if they are of your own culture to begin with. Since they are overseas, it is likely they won't be of your own culture unless they were a colony, so foreign conquest do not have this benefit. A smart player would conquer Syria before Egypt, since otherwise the Egyptian provinces will be nearly useless.

Hmm, you may be right there, but in that case, the dev replies regarding Castille and North Africa were wrong.
 
Mar 10, 2011
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Nah, this won't help at all. Read the DD more closely:

(Emphasis mine)

Overseas provinces are only easier to core if they are of your own culture to begin with. Since they are overseas, it is likely they won't be of your own culture unless they were a colony, so foreign conquest do not have this benefit. A smart player would conquer Syria before Egypt, since otherwise the Egyptian provinces will be nearly useless.

Yes, but there are some special cases. For example, Germany. If Ulm gets nice colonial empire going and moves capital overseas, it can conquest and core large chunks of Germany for 10% price.
 

1alexey

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It is about incorporating it. And just because France already has 100 provinces won't make integrating yet another one easier.
It is about something you do on regular basis vs something you do very rarely. Usually expirience helps quite a bit. You also have more buerocrats, so it is much easier to promote some and sent them to administer new land. Also, having buerocrats expirienced in working with non-majority people also helps. So, definitely being bigger makes integrating more, easier.

Now, let`s look at history, for a change. When Russia conqered Crimea and some other territories from Ottomans, Russia didn`t really fet the impact on global scale. In game, it would be crippling.
So China and Russia are inherently better at integrating a new province because of their size than say the smaller Prussia or Austria...?
Looking at the maps from 1600ish to today, the answer definitly is yes.
 
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It is about something you do on regular basis vs something you do very rarely. Usually expirience helps quite a bit.

Looking at the maps from 1600ish to today, the answer definitly is yes.

But a lot of those provinces Russia integrated would be low tax provinces in EU4, right?
 

1alexey

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But a lot of those provinces Russia integrated would be low tax provinces in EU4, right?
I doubt Siberia has lover base tax than Bohemia and Hungary. And i doubt Russian citizens were extreemly unhappy by the poorly administered Siberia. Global RR for overetencion implis just that.

I would be perfectly OK, if overextencion effect was local, and the global effect would just be stratching monarch points pool harder to administer that much more land. But since it is aperently global and unscalable depending on the realm size, it makes no sence whatsoever. It is one thing if you have 2 provinces, 1 of which is cored. Then, impact of overextending your administration is big. If you have 50 provinces, and 3 of them are not core, the global impact on your country should be hardly noticable. In current system, it is the other way arround. Having half of your country as non-core is not noticalbe if you`re small, and hving a minor fraction of your provinces non-core is very noticable if you`re big. :blink:
 
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turnad

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I doubt Siberia has lover base tax than Bohemia and Hungary. And i doubt Russian citizens were extreemly unhappy by the poorly administered Siberia. Global RR for overetencion implis just that.

Not everything in a game has to be historical or realistic, sometimes gameplay trumps setting. In this case the severe penalties are there to halt the rapid expansion in the game and have it so everything isn't over by 1550.
 

1alexey

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Not everything in a game has to be historical or realistic, sometimes gameplay trumps setting. In this case the severe penalties are there to halt the rapid expansion in the game and have it so everything isn't over by 1550.
THat kind of reasoning is self-defeating. Too rapid expancion should cause implosion, due to not having enough titylar population, and desire for independence of local elites, not due to inability to administer those lands.
 
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turnad

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THat kind of reasoning is self-defeating. Why does expancion has to be realistic then?

Let`s have Blob Europe, Blob-Asia, Blob- America for and duke it out somewhere arround 1600. Whould be very fun and interesting gameplay, but half of fanbase would probably prefer to fell on a knife.

I don't know if you've played EU3, but the game is generally over for the player by the mid 1500's. It was just too easy to expand and snowball without some limiting house rules. Also, the AI could blob too quickly. I don't mind an ever expanding France in Europe, it has happened, but to see it achieve that by 1490's (1399 start) was a bit too much. It's not like this over-extension is going to be crippling, it just means everyone (AI included) will need to slow down their conquests a bit.
 

1alexey

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I don't know if you've played EU3, but the game is generally over for the player by the mid 1500's. It was just too easy to expand and snowball without some limiting house rules. Also, the AI could blob too quickly. I don't mind an ever expanding France in Europe, it has happened, but to see it achieve that by 1490's (1399 start) was a bit too much. It's not like this over-extension is going to be crippling, it just means everyone (AI included) will need to slow down their conquests a bit.
So what is wrong?
After all:
Not everything in a game has to be historical or realistic,sometimes gameplay trumps setting.
You generally need more time to get the stuff rolling by Asians or Indians, so the extra time is chiefly to allow play outside Europe.

See, what i did there?
 
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1alexey

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Well then we both want entirely different games. I'd rather not see massive blobs duking it out 19th century style in the 1500's.
I want my game to make sence, an not see massive blobs for realistic reason. You aperently want to not see unrealistic gameplay result with unreaistic rules. Why would you want to play historical game anyway, then?

I vant realistic mechanics first, realistic outcome, last.
 

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So what is wrong?

But it is very much a gameplay thing, it gets too easy for the player, and Europe quickly turns into something akin to the late 19th century with just blobs everywhere.

You generally need more time to get the stuff rolling by Asians or Indians, so the extra time is chiefly to allow play outside Europe.

See, what i did there?

Well no, the game isn't based on levels, you don't beat the European stage to move on to the New World stage or the Asian stage.