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Welcome to another Europa Universalis IV development diary – Number 23 in fact. We have already done three more development diaries than we’d done for Europa Universalis III, and we still have about 30 more possible diaries to write.* There is still a lot to talk about when it comes to diplomacy, naval combat, westernization, economy, the Reformation and more.* And yes, we also need to make country guides for Poland and Norway.

Today, however, we’re talking a little more about diplomacy, where we introduce a new concept, and talk about how a few others have changed.

Coalitions
Sometimes you simply do not want to ally with someone because they are likely to drag you into a bunch of wars that you have no interest in, but, at the same time you think they would make a great ally for the war you do want to wage.

EUIV addresses this problem with the coalition system, a mutual alliance that is directed against a single country. You have an alliance leader, say the Papacy, who organizes an alliance say directed against Venice. Then they sign up countries like France, Milan and Austria. The alliance only fires in the event of war with Venice but if war does erupt all countries in the Coalition will be called in.

Initially, this power is only open to Catholic countries and can only be organized by the Papal Controller, reinforcing the idea that the Pope is still quite important in the early centuries of the game. Later on though, advances in diplomatic technology will allow any country to organize its own coalition against a common rival. Some Dynamic Historical Events can form some historic coalitions if the stars are aligned properly, as well.

Coalitions become, then, a great way to contain a growing threat or hated neighbor since everyone signs on to fight before the war starts. It can be challenging to get a coalition moving, since you need your potential allies to see the strategic threats in the same way you do. But it is a valuable tool that reinforces common interests.

Relations
We talked earlier about the change from bilateral relations to a system where you can hate me, but I don't hate you. (I don’t hate anybody!) This means we had to devise ways to change the asymmetrical love-hate relationship.

- Improve Relations
To improve relations, you send a diplomat to their capital, and he will slowly increase their opinion of your country. There is a cap though, currently at +200 approval, on how much a diplomat can affect what a country think of you, so you may need to address or wait out the other reasons why they dislike you as well if you want to get perfect relations.* Your diplomat stays in the foreign capital until he is recalled, so this does limit your diplomatic freedom a little. If you recall your diplomat, the 'improved relations' opinion will slowly decay by about 3 points each year.

- Insults
If you want to make some not like you, and maybe poke them into a war, say something mean. Insulting someone, reduces their opinion of you by -25 for ten years, and will also give them a casus belli on you for a year.

Overextension
In dev diary #13, we talked about how overextension worked.*This has now changed after lots of testing and tweaking, as the original design punished early expansion, while ignoring the problem of mid and late-game landgrabs.

Now, your overextension is now a value directly related to the amount of basetax you earning from non-core provinces. So a basetax 6 province gives you 6% overextension, no matter how big you are. So, even a normal conquest in a major war, say taking 2 or 3 rich provinces, can net you a significant overextension penalty which calls for a period of consolidation.

Coring Provinces
Since overextension changed, so has how you add provinces to your core. First of all, the price in administrative power points scales depending, again, on the basetax of the province. There are several ideas that decrease it for you, and increase it for your enemies. Secondly, coring is no longer instant. It takes 3 years, not counting any modifiers, to core it. All the while you still have the overextension penalties to cost of stability and to your revolt risk. Larger countries core province much more slowly, as each non-overseas province you own will increase coring times by 5%.

An overseas province of your own culture (such as a colony) is still instant to core, and costs 10% of the normal cost to core. We don’t want to discourage you from settling the New World because of delays in adding them to your core list.

For those of you who can read our script files, this what you pay for being overextended, with each factor mulitplied with the overextension percentage.
Code:
over_extension = {
	foreign_merchant_compete_chance = -4.0
	stability_cost_modifier = 2.0			
	papal_influence = -10
	mercenary_cost = 2.0
	diplomatic_reputation = -10
	global_revolt_risk = 20
}

Hope you'll enjoy a quick World Conquest now that you know how easy it will be.. And here is a completely unrelated screenshot.. just cause you know..

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After a bit of thinking, can I move capital to the New World, instacore at reduced price my acquisitions in the Old World, and then move capital back?
 

shakeled1

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After a bit of thinking, can I move capital to the New World, instacore at reduced price my acquisitions in the Old World, and then move capital back?
I think that one of the requirements for changing capitals to new continents was that they be isolated in EU3, and I'd suspect a similar system in EUIV
 

anubisfike

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I think that one of the requirements for changing capitals to new continents was that they be isolated in EU3, and I'd suspect a similar system in EUIV

That didn't prevent anyone that was determined to do so from moving to the new world in EU3. Just having cored an island is enough, for example the azores or canarias which could be acquired by anyone.
 

Gatkramp

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It is done by percent. So for 1% overextension you get 1% of 20 global_revolt_risk. That would be 0.2%. :) At least that is how I understood it.

Clarification on this would be nice.

Also, for those who say Russia should have an easy time core-ing territory... tell that to the Chechens, who well over a century later are still a thorn in their backside and cause issues throughout the wider Russia.

The overextension makes sense to me, as the revolts that may result are going to be a much more significant issue for the smaller conquerors than the bigger ones, as the larger ones will have larger standing armies to fight them.
 

anubisfike

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Clarification on this would be nice.

The code that was shown represents the values that 100% overextension would give. For example it showed that 100% overextension would give 20 revolt risk. If you're 10% overextended that would translate to a tenth of that value, in other words 2 revolt risk. The same thing goes for any of the other values shown and for any other value of overextension between 1% and 100% (unless you can go above 100%, which would be silly).
 

Alerias

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You can probably go beyond 100 yes, the way these games do math.

Instead of a percentage, think of it as the penalty for 100 uncored base tax. 200 uncored base tax (non-overseas) will probably double the penalty, much in the same way that other modifiers of the kind work. Like the additive compete chance penalty for having many merchants for instance. Given that nobody can possibly live with 20GRR, much less 40, what we're essentially being told is that you have to core everything. I was imagining that quite the opposite, the focus would be on forcing the player to pick-and-choose what he cores, but apparently not.

Its not a bad system but yeah its pretty harsh. I still feel its going a bit too far to not take a nation's size into account, but then again, I never signed on the anti-snowballing dogma driving this project. I also feel MPP and envoys should scale to some extent, but it's absolutely obvious that this is not the way they're designing the game. This focus on punishing growth will likely hurt the game for some and make it more enjoyable for others, depending what you like. Fortunately it's a very moddable game.
 

Rabid

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Just a quick note - if this is how overextension is going to work, please don't represent it as a percentage. It makes no sense and is potentially confusing for a lot of people.
 

Filip de Norre

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Best DD so far IMHO.

I believe coalitions will be a great feature, especially late game. The overextension compared to overseas seems perfect to me. All in all, for every DD, EUIV looks better and better.
 

Rabid

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How is it confusing in game?

It's confusing because it is in no way a percentage, except in as much as that the way the penalties from overextension are defined as the penalty you get at 100%. See the number of times people have asked in the thread how to figure out what penalties you get for a good example of people being confused.
 

Heatth

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See the number of times people have asked in the thread how to figure out what penalties you get for a good example of people being confused.

We have never seem how the information will be told in-game though. See, people are confused because they are trying to read something they don't understand. Johan was very clear "For those of you who can read our script files". This piece of information was for experienced modders only. You shouldn't pretend to understand something you are unfamiliar with and then complain when it turns out you were wrong.
 

Straigthtsilver

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Clarification on this would be nice.

Also, for those who say Russia should have an easy time core-ing territory... tell that to the Chechens, who well over a century later are still a thorn in their backside and cause issues throughout the wider Russia.

The overextension makes sense to me, as the revolts that may result are going to be a much more significant issue for the smaller conquerors than the bigger ones, as the larger ones will have larger standing armies to fight them.

You've forgotten to take into account that Chechnya is a grain of sand in terms of size in comparison to the colossal swathes of Siberia and the Far East that Russia seized and were hardly constant thorns in their sides. Not only that, but Russia only seized Chechnya in the Vic2 time-frame.
 

Wallain

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It's confusing because it is in no way a percentage, except in as much as that the way the penalties from overextension are defined as the penalty you get at 100%. See the number of times people have asked in the thread how to figure out what penalties you get for a good example of people being confused.
I am having a difficult time to understand what you are saying. It is a percentage. How is it confusing to operate from 100% rather than 20% or 1%? Also what we have been shown is the modifier for overextension, and not the in game interface. So of course some are going to ask for a bit of clarity on it. Personally I don't find it any more confusing than nationalism in EU3.
 

anubisfike

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I am having a difficult time to understand what you are saying. It is a percentage. How is it confusing to operate from 100% rather than 20% or 1%? Also what we have been shown is the modifier for overextension, and not the in game interface. So of course some are going to ask for a bit of clarity on it. Personally I don't find it any more confusing than nationalism in EU3.

But it's not a percentage. It says that 1 base tax = 1% but in no way is it an actual percentage.
 

Kalitz

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Clarification on this would be nice.

Also, for those who say Russia should have an easy time core-ing territory... tell that to the Chechens, who well over a century later are still a thorn in their backside and cause issues throughout the wider Russia.

The overextension makes sense to me, as the revolts that may result are going to be a much more significant issue for the smaller conquerors than the bigger ones, as the larger ones will have larger standing armies to fight them.
You are being silly. They became thorn in Russia's side only during Soviet era with their Russofication. In Imperial time they had only few requirements to follow : abide the law and allow to be drafted in the times of war.
 

bleakie

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Firstly, I would like to apologize for giving far-fetching ideas before fully making clear of the exact meaning of the overextension modifiers.
Now I would like to state my version of understanding of the actual meaning and effect of overextension, to see if I get anything wrong:

For every 100 base taxes from the non-core provinces of the home continent, a country would suffer from the following effect:
1) Merchants competing outside home country would be 4 points less competitive (would like to say 4% but not sure if it's really the case in eu4);
2) In order to raise 1 point of stability, a country needs to pay an extra 200% of the base stability cost;
3) Yearly papal influence is reduced by 10;
4) Mercenary cost is increased by 200% of the base cost;
5) Diplomatic relation with all other countries is reduced by 10;
6) Every year, the probability that a province is going to revolt is increased by 20 percentage points. (This includes cases from say -8% to 12%)

Please correct me if I get anything wrong.
 

bleakie

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Yes. 1 uncored base tax means 1% overextension. What is the problem with that? You then get 1% of the overextension penalties.

If percentage is used, it would be extremely easy for people to think that the overextension modifier is a measure relative to the size of a country, or relative to the amount of cored base taxes, which is not the case.