EU4: El Dorado - Development Diary 2: The Nation Designer | Page 26

Wagonlitz · Feb 5, 2015

An Elder Thing said:
Alternate history. But I'd say that recently "vanished" cultures and minority cultures would be more reasonable, I wouldn't be opposed to the devs throwing in such cultures, but at the bottom of the priority list.

Putting in Hittites and Babylonians (cultures which had been extinct for ~2000 years) isn't alternate history; it is alien space bats (unless you come up with a really really good explanation; and then you would also need to completely change the starting map, since those butterflies won't give anything like the countries we know).

An Elder Thing · Feb 5, 2015

Wagonlitz said:
Putting in Hittites and Babylonians (cultures which had been extinct for ~2000 years) isn't alternate history; it is alien space bats (unless you come up with a really really good explanation; and then you would also need to completely change the starting map, since those butterflies won't give anything like the countries we know).

I have two counter points, one the custom scenario which fills in the world with randomly generated countries, leading to an ASB world and thus ASB cultures would not be out of place. Secondly it doesn't effect the main game, and if it doesn't effect any one who doesn't want it to effect them and it gives other people who want it enjoyment, then why does it matter? Sometimes ASB is fun especially when it is intentionally silly, I am still a bit peeved about sunset invasion, but it can lead to some fun scenarios, Vikings fighting Aztecs for world domination.

Kapitalisti · Feb 5, 2015

Wagonlitz said:
That would be completely Alien Space Bat. Or do you have a plausible explanation for why Hittites or Babylonians should have survived 2000 years?

Naturally they survived as the custom nation that poster was wanting to make?

Wagonlitz · Feb 6, 2015

An Elder Thing said:
I have two counter points, one the custom scenario which fills in the world with randomly generated countries, leading to an ASB world and thus ASB cultures would not be out of place. Secondly it doesn't effect the main game, and if it doesn't effect any one who doesn't want it to effect them and it gives other people who want it enjoyment, then why does it matter? Sometimes ASB is fun especially when it is intentionally silly, I am still a bit peeved about sunset invasion, but it can lead to some fun scenarios, Vikings fighting Aztecs for world domination.

It takes time to properly implement a new culture and there are several cultures actually present during the time frame (or close to it) which could be implemented instead. So yes while normally it being optionally would mean it didn't matter it is ASB, the fact that its implementation would mean other more realistic cultures wouldn't get implemented does matter.
But in the randomly generated world it indeed really becomes ASB. With just custom nations it doesn't have to be. E.g. give Denmark Småland at start; that would be a completely valid alternate history, since Småland was several small 'kingdoms' until a few centuries before game start and both Denmark and Sweden tried to get them; Sweden succeeded, but Denmark could also have succeeded.

Suzaku · Feb 6, 2015

Wiz said:
Playing in custom or random setup removes the HRE.

Well that sucks, I was hoping for custom nation to add itself to the HRE.

Prince Ire · Feb 6, 2015

Since achievements aren't compatible with custom nations, I fail to see the point of enforced point costs and limits.

And custom removes the HRE form the game? Why!?!?!?!

Yradnegel · Feb 6, 2015

Prince Ire said:
Since achievements aren't compatible with custom nations, I fail to see the point of enforced point costs and limits.

Some people would like it to feel like they're given boundaries as to how powerful their nation can get, if you want to go balls to the walls and give yourself Elan! on crack there's always very easy (800 points) or the inevitable day 1 mod which will remove the point limitation.

toroltao · Feb 6, 2015

Wiz said:
They have some generic names/descriptions based on the modifier. We'll likely add the option to name them at some point.

This... actually kind of sucks. Destroys a lot of the immersion for me. I thought we would be able to write our own names and tooltips.

TheDarkMaster · Feb 6, 2015

Suzaku said:
Well that sucks, I was hoping for custom nation to add itself to the HRE.

You can, it's just that if you remove all the other nations in the world or go with a random nation set up, the HRE is removed.

Incompetent · Feb 6, 2015

Wagonlitz said:
Putting in Hittites and Babylonians (cultures which had been extinct for ~2000 years) isn't alternate history; it is alien space bats (unless you come up with a really really good explanation; and then you would also need to completely change the starting map, since those butterflies won't give anything like the countries we know).

Well, you could justify it by analogy with the Assyrians, an ethnic group whose glory days belong to a similar era and which hasn't been in charge of a sovereign state for well over a millennium, but which still survives to this day. As an alternate history premise, it's plausible that some other ancient Mesopotamian/Anatolian cultures could have lingered on as unassimilated minorities up until the EU era, without fundamentally changing the power dynamics of the region. Actually resurrecting some kind of independent state should be extremely difficult, of course (just as it would have been for the Assyrians).

Wagonlitz · Feb 6, 2015

Incompetent said:
Well, you could justify it by analogy with the Assyrians, an ethnic group whose glory days belong to a similar era and which hasn't been in charge of a sovereign state for well over a millennium, but which still survives to this day. As an alternate history premise, it's plausible that some other ancient Mesopotamian/Anatolian cultures could have lingered on as unassimilated minorities up until the EU era, without fundamentally changing the power dynamics of the region. Actually resurrecting some kind of independent state should be extremely difficult, of course (just as it would have been for the Assyrians).

That is a good point; though I still think there are other cultures which are more important to get into the game than Babylonian and Hittitian. Though your argument may break down with the Hittites, because not only were there the Greeks in Anatolia (they weren't that good at assimilating as far as I know), but then came the Turks and they were really successfull.

Prince Ivan V · Feb 6, 2015

Wagonlitz said:
That would be completely Alien Space Bat. Or do you have a plausible explanation for why Hittites or Babylonians should have survived 2000 years?

As my reply, if you're gonna have a nation designer that completely throws history out of whack anyway, why not give a chance for some alternate history role play? It's not technically impossible that they could have survived this long as their own culture. You could say, maybe in the case of the Phoenicians, traveled to the new world and established colonies that somehow survived with Phoenician culture! Like I said, it's for the Nation Designer, not for the main game.

Wagonlitz · Feb 7, 2015

Prince Ivan V said:
As my reply, if you're gonna have a nation designer that completely throws history out of whack anyway, why not give a chance for some alternate history role play? It's not technically impossible that they could have survived this long as their own culture. You could say, maybe in the case of the Phoenicians, traveled to the new world and established colonies that somehow survived with Phoenician culture! Like I said, it's for the Nation Designer, not for the main game.

Only the random world throws history out the window. Also even though it was possible for a stray ship to reach the Americas they would be able to get back, so there would be no Phoenician colonisation of America. And what you are proposing isn't alternate history; it is pure fiction. Alternate history takes base in history and then from a point of deviation uses plausible mechanisms to determine what could have happened; the further you get from the point of deviation the harder it gets to predict. As an example I will again mention that Denmark and not Sweden could have grabbed Småland; then you could use the nation designer to add a Denmark which included Småland if you wanted alternate history. So the nation designer isn't just for pure fiction.
But most importantly as I mentioned there are cultures which actually existed in the time frame or close to which aren't represented; they should be spent resources on before Alien Space Bat.

1666846464 · Feb 7, 2015

lol@extremely stupid people complaining about realism/believability in Europa Universalis 4 of all games

EU4 is a fantasy game, accept it.

Wagonlitz · Feb 7, 2015

Zahr said:
lol@extremely stupid people complaining about realism/believability in Europa Universalis 4 of all games

Please refrain from making personal attacks on me. Secondly it is not complaining; we are having a discussion as to why or why not adding Hittites and Babylonians ought to be done.

EU4 is a fantasy game, accept it.

No it is not a fantasy game. It is a historical game. Yes it isn't fully correct and it becomes more and more implausible as the game progresses, but that is because alternate history is hard to simulate and it becomes harder and harder the further you get from the point of divergence because of the butterflies. If it was a fantasy game why did they then add a wasteland in Ghana? The reason they did that is that qua diseases the African interior wasn't really something which could be conquered until the 19th century; adding a wasteland there then allows colonisation of the coast yet hinders the progression inland thereby making it more realistic.
Though in some instances they are making it less realistic deliberately. Like with adding the event chain for the Burgundian inheritance. Sure that Charles the Bold had a hard time getting an heir is realistic, but it was a fluke that he died at Nancy and hadn't that happened he could potentially have got an heir. Though given the Burgundian inheritance was a central part of the major conflicts for the next couple hundred years it is understandable why they did it. Without a division of Burgundy we are looking at so many butterflies that much of what happened after 1477 becomes unlikely or very unlikely. Though there would probably still have been some large religious war, but it certainly wouldn't be the 30 years war we know.

Veldmaarschalk · Feb 7, 2015

Zahr said:
lol@extremely stupid people complaining about realism/believability in Europa Universalis 4 of all games

EU4 is a fantasy game, accept it.

Please don't call other people stupid, just because they want something else from the game then you.

bolls · Feb 7, 2015

When you select unit spire graphics will you be able to select nation specific or just cultural? Would be nice to see the sprite packs be used here.

EDIT: Also - What is the custom nations relationship to cultural union tags? It would be nice if there were a decision at a high enough Admin tech level to make your tag the cultural union tag... if that is possible.

Kapitalisti · Feb 7, 2015

Prince Ire said:
Since achievements aren't compatible with custom nations, I fail to see the point of enforced point costs and limits.

Most likely the limitations are for multiplayer.

Prince Ivan V · Feb 10, 2015

Wagonlitz said:
Only the random world throws history out the window. Also even though it was possible for a stray ship to reach the Americas they would be able to get back, so there would be no Phoenician colonisation of America. And what you are proposing isn't alternate history; it is pure fiction. Alternate history takes base in history and then from a point of deviation uses plausible mechanisms to determine what could have happened; the further you get from the point of deviation the harder it gets to predict. As an example I will again mention that Denmark and not Sweden could have grabbed Småland; then you could use the nation designer to add a Denmark which included Småland if you wanted alternate history. So the nation designer isn't just for pure fiction.
But most importantly as I mentioned there are cultures which actually existed in the time frame or close to which aren't represented; they should be spent resources on before Alien Space Bat.

True. It still would be cool to see them though. I disagree about it being pure fiction, however. Many discoveries were made accidentally and someone went back later to colonize it. History is filled with lots of what ifs, even craxy ones like letting the Hittites remain their own nation even after the advent of Rome and the Huns. But it is however HIGHLY implausable, yes, that a culture could stay unchanged for more than four thousand years. Even some of today's most static cultures aren't that old.

hashinshin · Feb 10, 2015

Kapitalisti said:
Most likely the limitations are for multiplayer.

This.

I want multiplayer without 5 mega-prussias, yet still including custom nations.

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