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EU4 - Development Diary - 6th of August 2019

Good day and welcome to another Development Diary for EU4's upcoming European Update + Expansion. After enjoying a plethora of maps, missions and other content work from our esteemed content designers, I'm here to turn our attention towards the mechanical changes and additions we can look forward to in said European update.

We're going to start with Mercenaries. Not too long ago, I penned a dev diary outlining our ambitions with mercenaries

I'll take this moment to draw attention to the fact that the UI and numbers are far from final

6th Aud DD macro.jpg


In the upcoming Euro update, the old method of recruiting mercenary units one by one in individual provinces is replaced by the action of hiring Mercenary Companies. Mercenary Companies are complete armies of pure mercenaries, as such will not consume from your manpower pool. They can be recruited in any of your core provinces, where they spawn at full strength, but with low morale.

Mercenary Companies come in two flavours: Local Mercenaries and Foreign Mercenaries.

All nations have three bands of local mercenaries available for recruitment, ranging in size from small to large, capped at a minimum of 2 units and a maximum of 40, depending on the development of your nation. Other than the fact that all nations will have local mercenaries available for hire, there is nothing special about them.

6th Aud DD company available.jpg


Things get a little more interesting with foreign mercenaries. Across the world, there will be foreign mercenary companies, tied to a province of origin; the Free Swiss Guard from Bern, the Flemish Company from Vlaanderen, the Raiders from Navajo etc. These companies come with their own General who is loyal to that unit and that unit only. They also can have different costs and modifiers on the unit, depending on which company you hire from. These companies can spawn and despawn over the course of the grand campaign, but no matter how much you want any particular mercenary company, you can only recruit Mercenary Companies within your trade range. So while you may feel confident invading a colonial Portugal, know that they may well have a far larger pool of Mercenary Companies to draw upon.

6th Aud DD Frisians.jpg


So let's take a closer look at the mercenary units themselves. They are typically more expensive than your standard nation's armies, although those costs compared to the current 1.28 mercenaries are likely to be reduced. This is largely due to how Mercenaries will no longer have unlimited manpower, able to feed themselves with coins and bandage wounds with solid gold. No, from the upcoming European update and going forward, Mercenaries will have their own local manpower, unique for their army

6th Aud DD local manpower.jpg


Not to belabour the point, but UI and numbers shown and discussed here are far from final

Once you hire, for example, this Cossack Host, they will replenish any lost souls from their own unique manpower pool until, eventually, they will be completely exhausted and no longer able fight at full strength, leaving them liable to be wiped out in battle. Our intention here is for mercenary companies to be the muscle you flex in times of war and conflict, rather than the go-to permanent standing army for all nations. To this effect:

Make mercenaries always stay at 100% maintenance

We added this and are quite happy with the results. If a nation chooses to rely heavily or exclusively on mercenaries at all times, they will certainly be footing the bill for them.

As for when you terminate your deal with any Mercenary Company, they will leave your nation and your command like all other units, but will not be available to hire by your nation for 10 years. If, in time of great war, you may find yourself at a disadvantage if you have exhausted your access of mercenaries against a foe who has many other companies at their disposal.

You may notice that the Local Manpower for a mercenary army replaces certain actions in the UI. While mercenary regiments can still be consolidated, they fight as a single unit under their leader. They will not accept being lead by another leader or army and cannot be split, nor merged with another. In the event that their leader dies, they shall elect a new leader from within.

6th Aud DD dead leader.jpg


In playtesting, this has lead to it feeling rather chunky, when manoeuvring multiple stacks which cannot be merged together, as they can have different arrival times and movement paths. We are looking into a better way to manage such stacks of armies, and as inconsistent arrival times has been a bugbear for some time, it seems a fitting moment to address it.

Some other points about Mercenaries which warrant bringing up here:
  • Hiring a Mercenary Company won't prevent another nation from hiring from that company too. We didn't want to create a situation where the player who clicks fastest gets those juicy Swiss mercs.
  • Mercenaries will use your nation's military stats, then apply any of their own modifiers on top of that. We did not want to echo the situation in EU3, where mercenaries would end up clearly spending all your money on booze because they were too drunk to fight well.
  • Mercenaries will be hired through the macro builder rather than through the provinces. This should help reduce click fatigue, but also necessitates some work on the Macro Builder, which we'll address in a future DD.
  • With Mercenaries no longer being a bottomless source of manpower, base manpower is likely to increase for all nations, likely by increasing the base amount development gives and/or boosting the value of manpower buildings.
  • Mercenaries are to use unit models fitting for their origin.
  • All changes above are going to be part of the free update.

This is a major change to system that has been largely untouched since EU3, and it won't be until 2020 that this update hits the shelves. The system is likely to get some refinement based on playtesting and feedback. Early results show a lot more involvement with Mercenary Companies, especially in multiplayer. Hearing "Oh bollocks he hired the Swiss" down the microphone certainly evokes much glee, but we shall continue refining the system. We shall be back with more about Mercenaries, as well as the content that goes hand in hand with the system, as development continues.

As ever, comments and feedback are welcome in the thread. Next week we'll be tackling another large change coming in the European Update.
 
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DamonIsa

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Honestly? About what I expected for the Mercenary Rework. Not bad overall. I can see how it'd be interesting. I am kind of hoping that Mercenary Companies being unique will open up more fertile design territory later on. Events relating to particular groups, both negatives and positives. Being able to give them slight bits of flavor or historical footnotes in a description would be a nice little touch. Meaningless as it would be to the game I would love to see something like "This is the (whatever) mercenary company of Swiss Pikemen which was renown for their defensive techniques in the battles of (examples)" or something listed in there.

Again, kinda silly but I'd appreciate that sort of detail.
 

PK_AZ

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In playtesting, this has lead to it feeling rather chunky, when manoeuvring multiple stacks which cannot be merged together, as they can have different arrival times and movement paths. We are looking into a better way to manage such stacks of armies, and as inconsistent arrival times has been a bugbear for some time, it seems a fitting moment to address it.
You probably already playtested it, but I'll still leave it here, just to be sure.
What if two-level organization (army->regiment) was replaced with three-level one: army (unit you move on the map), division(group of regiments that are always part of the same army, and can have their own commander), regiment.
 

Sumerki

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Will you ever make it so Christians can spread faith in Trade regions like muslims can

That doesn't make a lot of sense though if you consider the nature of European activities in TC areas where they either acted as middlemen or as traders to their home country/Europe while getting involved in the local trade networks (Philippines as the exception). With Islam however, there was often severely restricted access or no access at all for non-Muslim traders to Muslim areas, high fines and taxes if you were not muslim etc. -> lots of pros for conversion, especially in more urbanized and/or trade-heavy areas (though again, large parts of the population stayed non-muslim for a time, but religious minorities or religious demographics in EU4 overall are very very superficial and can barely be called an approximation of actual religious communities at the time.

There could potentially be some more Jesuit missionary work events though that would lead to a wider spread of christianity in TC areas.
 

holyvigil

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This is a good change to realism.

I wonder how this will affect the meta game though. Will this affect the speed of WC? does this shift the balance toward small nations or large nations?
 

Frax

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1.30 will apparently be a free update relased after the summer containing no gameplay changes to the game.

Still, I agree with you. I wrote a post a few months ago here explaining why I feel changing mercenaries by just generally making them worse is a bad idea for the game in general(Link), and I think it hasn't lost any of its relevancy now.

Though what this DD and the reception to it finally made me realize is that by far the majority of EU4 players are purely casuals who just know very little about the gameplay aspects of mechanics of the game they are actually playing. Hence I've come to realize that even though these merc changes are bad for the gameplay overall, they might turn out to be a good change in general, simply because they adhere to the majority of players.
And, to clarify, there's nothing wrong with that.

Still it remains a case that the casual player won't even notice all the negative aspects of these changes. For casual players "warfare" in EU4 happens when you declare war against AI and siege stuff from it to gain land, and "combat" happens when two stacks are put in one province and then a bunch of RNG rolls and magic decides who win. For them there's absolutely nothing more that goes into it.

Casual players aren't like MP min maxers, who take a country with 100 provinces and turn it into a monstrosity able to field 5mln troops at the same time, they aren't like SP WCers either, who can take any kind of OPM and conquer all of the world in a matter of three centuries.
A casual's understanding and knowledge of the game is limited, hence his goals and priorities will also be different.
For a casual player, who might sometimes struggle even against AI, it won't be a problem if a mechanic heavily favors the player over rather poor AI
For a casual player there's no difference between a merc stack that he can't split or merge and his own stacks, because typically he is going to be using random or straight up bad army compositions himself
A casual player won't be even able to tell the difference between an army with 2/2 general and 100% discipline and one with, say, 3/4 general and 120% discipline, as everything related to combat goes into the regions of 'magic' that he just doesn't comprehend, because he never needed to to enjoy the game within his own scope of goals and priorities.

At last, but not least, a casual player is simply often going to prefer flavor over gameplay, because gameplay, again, often goes into the region of unknown magic for him.
This probably won't make me popular but I'll reiterate. Players who call it a good gameplay change are generally speaking wrong, yet they are also right because it might turn out to be a good change for them.

And to all of you who are upset with this: I get you, because I think this is a bad change aswell, yet I think you need to realize that you are in the minority, and making it so that the new mercs are closer to what you would want them to be might not necessarily make the game better for majority

That all being said I'd still like to highlight some of the issues that I have with this new system, hoping that it might at least get adjusted in a way that suits 'casual' and 'non casual' players the same slightly more:
  • Manpower itself at the moment provides far too little troops for people to actually sustain a large army. This is especially showing in multiplayer campaigns, where a country that would want to attack some other needs to be ready to combat: terrain penalties, higher attrition, especially on forts, bigger distance from your recruitment centers etc. In the past it was compensated by the fact that you could recruit mercenaries to use on your cannon stacks for sieging, first engagements etc. It has been hinted that manpower regeneration will be boosted, but that is a very risky change. As Oda mentioned in his post on the previous page, it already is a case that an 'optimal' strategy for MP is to conquer lands up to your state limit ASAP and then just sit on it for a few centuries just deving and building up, which is not exactly fun
  • Army compositions of these mercenaries seem to be absolutely terrible, and the fact that you can't even remove unnecessary parts and merge them with your own armies makes them practically useless in fights against regulars. People above keep suggesting that quality of mercs should be worse than of regular troops but judging by what we've been shown mercs will aready be utterly garbage compared to regulars, for any non-believer, please go into the game and try a fight between that "8/5" stack and a, say, 20/0 one(btw the latter costs less) at around tech 3-6 and see who wins. Mercenary companies need to be taught better army compositions or for many players they won't only be bad but just straight up useless
  • A few big issues in warfare, that mercs used to compensate for, are still in it: forts are significantly too cheap and too powerful, providing the defender with fights with up to 25% effective discipline advantage, the combat system forces an 'optimal' stack to be at at least double the supply limit, because going anywhere below it risks getting stackwiped and, most importantly, the economy aspect of this game remains far too shallow and uninteractive. In the current state of the game warfare should be encouraged and rewarded(because economy can't), yet this change at the moment actually penalizes going on the offense.
There are a few others but I think my predecessors summed them up pretty well.

I'd like to commend the dev team for making some very wise choices, including
  • not giving countries the ability to steal mercenaries from other countries
  • retaining current system, where mercs' stats remain the same as your country's stats
and I do want to say that this system probably can be good given some adjustmends to it and changes to other mechanics of the game
but at the moment it still needs some work
I remain hopeful that the dev team in the following months will be able to make everything work out in the end though

pax <3

:thumps up:
There are weakness to the new system that need tuneing
- Army Comp needs to be improved, maybe let the player decided the comp before hiring them
- They will be a pain to ship if you can't split em up and that needs a fix
- Forts need a rework and is really not a merc issue it is just the current solution to late game fort spam which needs to be addressed as a seperate isssue.
- Also Mercs need to have same or better stats then your regular troops that is needed maybe give them a 100% prof bonus all the time.
 

FantasticFwoosh

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I note that you've said that mercs will use unit models from where they are hired, will they also use their unit pips? That seems to be the prevailing assumption in the replies, but that wasn't actually stated anywhere

Free Swiss Guard from Bern, the Flemish Company from Vlaanderen, the Raiders from Navajo etc. These companies come with their own General who is loyal to that unit and that unit only. They also can have different costs and modifiers on the unit, depending on which company you hire from.

Mercenaries will use your nation's military stats, then apply any of their own modifiers on top of that. We did not want to echo the situation in EU3, where mercenaries would end up clearly spending all your money on booze because they were too drunk to fight well.

Tech groups determine what kind of unit tech tree it belongs to, but i do believe by my personal interpretation that a Anatolian Janissary hired from a foriegn company will retain its pips with the supported enclosed context, the detail is kind of shaved off the dev diary for a lack of time i guess or being not relevant to not really go in depth into it when there's so much other stuff to cover.

@DDRJake could you clarify please whether units availible via foreign merc contracts from different tech trees to your own utilise their own tech group's pips when they are on the same/relative tech level of unit?

EI - Muslim Duel Infantry (Tech 5, Shock/Off - 1, Shock/Def - 1, Morale/Off - 1, Morale/Def - 1) 4
versus
Indian Arquebusiers (Tech 5, Fire/Off - 1, Shock/Off - 1, Morale/Off - 1, Morale/Def - 1) 4

Given the Indian Subcontinent's inland trade regions and tech groups are relatively close to each other in key areas there is no reason to not double stack a different kind of mercenary army ontop of yours with a strong general and generally stomp with combined arms for as long as the supporting army lasts.
 

zdlugasz

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It's been a long time since it was possible to tap nations out, but I still missed it. This is a change I like to see.

But only small nations and at the beginning of game. XVIIth century England, Spain, even Ottomans will be able to hire across the world.


Edit: to that effect I agree with somebody's idea mentioned eralier: number of available mercenaries should go down with time/technology/institutions
 
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BoomKidneyShot

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That doesn't make a lot of sense though if you consider the nature of European activities in TC areas where they either acted as middlemen or as traders to their home country/Europe while getting involved in the local trade networks (Philippines as the exception). With Islam however, there was often severely restricted access or no access at all for non-Muslim traders to Muslim areas, high fines and taxes if you were not muslim etc. -> lots of pros for conversion, especially in more urbanized and/or trade-heavy areas (though again, large parts of the population stayed non-muslim for a time, but religious minorities or religious demographics in EU4 overall are very very superficial and can barely be called an approximation of actual religious communities at the time.

There could potentially be some more Jesuit missionary work events though that would lead to a wider spread of christianity in TC areas.

Perhaps it could be tied to religious ideas to allow a non-Muslim nation to propagate their religion?
 

DamonIsa

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Probably logical for an Event if you have say both Religion and Trade on the normal idea event pulse. Something like "Trading Goods and Faiths" that has a chance to convert a province.
 

Battlex

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That doesn't make a lot of sense though if you consider the nature of European activities in TC areas where they either acted as middlemen or as traders to their home country/Europe while getting involved in the local trade networks (Philippines as the exception). With Islam however, there was often severely restricted access or no access at all for non-Muslim traders to Muslim areas, high fines and taxes if you were not muslim etc. -> lots of pros for conversion, especially in more urbanized and/or trade-heavy areas (though again, large parts of the population stayed non-muslim for a time, but religious minorities or religious demographics in EU4 overall are very very superficial and can barely be called an approximation of actual religious communities at the time.

There could potentially be some more Jesuit missionary work events though that would lead to a wider spread of christianity in TC areas.
Molocussas were heavily christianised by the portugese prescence, one reason the dutch were swapped out for the portugese by japan was because the dutch preached less.
From Portugese Macau you also have jesuit missions to the Emperor's court.
It should totally be an event for a Portugese province in TC regions to convert neighbouring provinces, once christianised itself.

Spanish were also quite the converters themselves.
 

I like wars and maps

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I was at first happy to see mercenarys being nerfed, but with the way this took it way too far. Mercenarys now have no real purpose except to scare away enemys from your cannons during your sieges. Cause making them unsplittable and unmergable basically means they have no real purpose in battle except be expensive meatbags. Being unmergable will also just lead to pointlessly micromanaging your armies with theirs so neither runs into battle without the other unprepared. I was happy to see a change in the system but the way the devs did it is horrible.
 

ThiArcher

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Mercenaries has to be a limited resource!

The mechanic of mercenaries should be with MP, if a nation get mercenary, the MP take down the number.

To limited the use for a long time for a nation, the cost has to be rising over time. Also, the profit for siege has to be share with the mercenary that been doing.

The region distance of mercenaries should to determine how long time they take to arrive in the nation that be buying.
 

holyvigil

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Molocussas were heavily christianised by the portugese prescence, one reason the dutch were swapped out for the portugese by japan was because the dutch preached less.
From Portugese Macau you also have jesuit missions to the Emperor's court.
It should totally be an event for a Portugese province in TC regions to convert neighbouring provinces, once christianised itself.

Spanish were also quite the converters themselves.

This is outside the scope of this update and Spain and Portugal already have a lot of special colonization mechanics but it would make sense if they had the same kind of conversion mechanics that the Mughals, Kazan, and literally every single Muslim gets.
 

Twoflower

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This really seems to be a change for the better.
I would prefer for merc companies not to always spawn instantly in a core province - it seems a little silly and immersion-breaking for a mercenary company based in South America or India to instantly spawn in the middle of Iberia or France, and it would actually be interesting and flavourful if for example Europeans had a reason to use Indian companies when fighting wars in India - as the historical East India Companies did.
And I must admit that while I see the reason for not making mercenary companies exclusive to one employer, I don`t yet understand how one company being employed simultaneously by several employers is going to work.
But notwithstanding those points and other things that could be clarified, improved and finetuned about the new merc system, from the sound of it this new system is without doubt going to be infinitely better than the asinine, ahistorical infinite merc spam of the current version of EU4.
 

Less2

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What consideration has been given to the economic aspect of these changes?

Currently the only reason to care about getting rich in EU4 is to run high level advisors (which has heavily diminishing returns to begin with) and running 100% mercenary armies. If the latter is removed then most of the usage of money is going to become irrelevant, along with most of the buildings and adm/dip development.
 

Tyr86

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I'm digging this change.

My first thought.....wars instantly become much more strategic.

One of the primary concerns when facing a larger nation is that even when you strike them at an ideal time they just merc you to death. While they still might be able to merc you to death, it becomes less likely with this change. m

Some positives I'm envisioning:

  • shorter wars but in a good way. No endless merc spam after someone has lost
  • this has to be leading to some changes with drilling/professionalism

Huge suggestion:
  • Make espionage/spy network have the ability to bribe mercs that another country has hired. If I can pay off ol Groggy the Viking Raider of Snippendoor and turn the tables on a country---oh that would be glorious. Make it so that there is a chance it fails and/or they go back to the hiring country and spill the beans. In said event the offended country gets a favorable CB or you dip rep gets hurt....something along those lines.
 

frolix42

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IMO Merc companies should be tilted towards "quality" units with outsized numbers of Cavalry and Artillery. This will push players towards levying more infantry with Mercs as supplemental.

f.e. I think it would be cool if the "Cossack Host" was 5 Inf and 8 Cav instead of the other way aroung.


That's a fine enough quote, clever clever, but I hope it's removed before release. I foresee the 10,000th time I read it, it will be considerably less clever.

Put it on a load screen.
 
Last edited:

Rule Britannia

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Rather than making it possible for each side in a conflict to hire the same company of mercenaries, why not make it so that only one country can hire them, but that enough gold from an enemy will cause the mercenaries to change sides.