EU4 - Development Diary - 3rd of October 2017

[hashinshin]

Well by their neighbors I mean:

• The newly buffed super Russia who as we all know has been doing amazing (who currently out quality and out quantity Ottomans with these changes.)
• Poland who... I mean we all know what Polish NIs are.
• Black Army Hungary (the AI might not know how to abuse it, but in MP black army is amazing)
• The new Persia with those QQ ideas (35% cav combat with government + traditions...)
• I guess their NIs are fair to Mamluks/Austria, but wouldn't it be easier to just finally buff the Mamluk/Austrian NIs (military wise)?

I guess I expected the Janissaries to be 10% discipline. -10% shock/fire damage is great, but at 2x reinforce that's quite a hit. And 50 mil to draw them up. Ottoman ideas without Janissaries are weaker than other Tier 1 powers (other than Austria) with their saving grace being primarily the core creation cost.

I guess from a MP perspective I'm not really seeing the Ottomans having much teeth. The 50 mil to raise janissaries as well as rather weak buff compared to it's cost means that I think most Ottoman players will prefer to just get tech 4 and 5 faster, then getting mil ideas, than trying to raise Janissaries. Unlike Streltsy/Cossacks who just pop out of nowhere and have no real cost the Janissaries have a real cost, as well as the disaster meaning you can't mainline your entire infantry with them. Then their mil ideas are discipline and cav combat, but the Janissaries are infantry.

I suppose if they don't take manpower to reinforce they have an advantage. That'd be one thing.

Looking at the screenshot I'm a little torn because having super powerful Ottomans (again, they do need a nerf right now) was sort of a mainstay of EU4. Removing all their cores, removing the janissary buff, buffing all their neighbors (literally all 4 of the relevant ones, mamluks persia russia hungary) means I doubt we're going to see a super powerful Ottos. I suspect Russia is going to be the undisputed new world power for many patches.

Let me summarize my argument in this way: Any nation with 5% discipline and 10% infantry combat will have equal military quality to the JANISSARIES. The freaking JANISSARIES.

 

[creativitypersonified]

Assigning a pasha should also most definitely increase local autonomy. Really hope there are also some cool events asssociated with pashas. Rebelling against you, converting cultures on their own, offering you extra taxes from a bountiful year or asking for economical support.

 

[Βασιλεύς Περικλής]

can ak quyonlu form rum? they are of turkish culture but not a baylik

 

[ValhallArchitect]

Looks great, especially the janissaries.
Speaking of Ottoman, Rum and Byzantium, I really like the new competition setup between the three « empires » (Byzantium, ottoman, and a reformable Rum).

Two suggestions :
1) Pashas look good, but it would be even better if pasha were assigned to a specific culture/annexed tag (I.e, Egyptian pasha, greek pasha, Bulgarian pasha...) rather than a simple state.
This indeed would represent the cultural autonomy granted by the ottoman government, which did explain why there were so few rebellions in the early centuries)

Would be cool too, that Byzantium get a Restore the Pentarchy achievement, rewarding players for a this difficult task to save the empire.

 

[fyfaendeluxe]

well pashas seem completely worthless/pointless

you never have revolts as ottos(outside of 1 round of seperatists) as it is. if you want players to use edicts, i'd rather you'd make them not shit rather than convoluting it further with another low-impact money-based trade-off.

 

[BlackPrince]

Sad part of those last DDs is that they all show no changes to Sahel and East Africa. It's a bit strange when you look at those Islam improvements. Such a great chance to improve whole Central Africa region from Cameroon to Sudan with new provinces and new states like: Mandara Kingdom, Kingdom of Bamum, Kotoko Kingdom, Wadai, Shilluk kingdom, Tegali. Improve West Africa with some Fetishist kingdoms to balance a bit Islam and Christian influence, Nri Kingdom, Koya Kingdom, Mankessim Kingdom, Kwararafa (just look at that name, isn't it glorious?). And East Africa could use some nice changes reducing the sphere of influence of Kilwa and making some of the coastal province either ruled by natives or by small countries such as sultanate of Angoche. Oh, don't forget the Sultanate of Ndzuwani, one of those few established at Comoros, which prevented europeans and Oman from overtaking the islands.

 

[ValhallArchitect]

On an unrelated note, I am glad you spent the last months fixing and expanding Eastern Asia and Middle East.
What next then ? A logical reasoning would suggest a deeper experience in south and Southeast Asia

More owned provinces and countries in Indonesia
Inhabited Philippines kingdoms
A more interesting experience for trade companies, especially seeing an autonomous British East India Company conquering India

 

[tuor149]

considering this dlc changes quite a lot for the timurids, will the mughals get some love?

It seems to me that as one of the major countries in eu4 timeframe, the Mughals deserve a lot of love

 

[I'm gaming]

Will local regiment cost affect maintenance of units from that province?

 

[seriousgigi]

They still do pretty well in hands off games. Here's a recent one I did:
View attachment 303905

Mind the Mamluks do have a lot more teeth than the used to all the same

are you crazy? there is no chance for ottomans against austria, poland, russia or other european alliances.

you must add a land moral (10-15%) national idea to ottoman empire.

spain has 15% moral 5% discipline
france has 20% moral 5% discipline
poland has 15% moral 5% discipline
austria has 10% moral 3% discipline
ottomans has 0% moral 5% discipline

is that a joke?

i am not even talking about every war against europeans they have +10% land moral from ridiculous crusade modifier.

 

[Topias]

So it's the unannounced expansion that gives the Ottoman government Pashas and Janissaries? People with just Rights of Man get neither? I take it the new expansion also unlocks the Ottoman government?

 

[hashinshin]

Okay I know I'm maybe spamming a bit much, but I'mma make one last post to try to say why the Janssaries need a DRASTIC power increase.

1. 50 mil to raise 1 janissary per 10 dev in a state. In a good state (especially early game) you're looking at 10 mil per janissary. That's... a lot. With double reinforce cost it's not like once you raise them they're good forever with no real cost (Streltsy, Cossacks, Banners.) I can't think of many situations where I'd prefer to raise Janissaries instead of taking a mil tech ahead of time or getting a mil idea. Maybe in to the late-early game once I'm locked down but how do I possibly compete with the army quality of my neighbors? If they get stack wiped it's a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR blow.

2. Historicalness. I know History isn't an argument but hear me out. Currently any nation with 5% discipline and 10% infantry combat has equal military quality to the JANISSARIES. The PREMIERE fighting force of this time period. POLAND has better infantry (just random levies!) than the Janissaries. Poland will have 10% infantry combat, 15% morale, 5% discipline. Ottoman JANISSARIES will have 5% discipline, -10% shock damage, -10% fire damage (which is effectively 10% infantry combat.)

3. Even if it was changed to 10% discipline the Janissaries would still be only equal in quality to Swedish/Prussian levies. These are EXPENSIVE EXPENSIVE troops. 2x to reinforce, at LEAST 10 mil per regiment. Remember, if they get stack wiped you're rebuilding these suckers for monarch points. Not just money, monarch points.

That's why my argument is to give the Janissaries 10% discipline, -10% shock damage taken, -10% fire damage taken. Remember that your Ottoman deathblob has received a SUBSTANTIAL nerf with no more global janissary buff. No more are you going to be taking 3:1 casualties from the Turks. At the least though, their super infantry (and again, the PREMIERE infantry of this time period) should be able to just absolutely WRECK through opponents.

Janissaries will not fill out the Ottoman army (and even if you tried, then the Janissary decadence disaster fires) and the average Ottoman soldier will be below the quality of other army's soldiers of any real nation.

Consider that even with those changes late game Prussian infantry would be superior to Janissary infantry, and Swedish infantry as well.

And if that makes them OP then simply reduce the ratio they can be in your army until you get the Janissary decadence disaster. It's really a fine system right now. Early game they're prevented from being spammed by limits to heathen dev and mil cost, and late game they're prevented from being spammed by the disaster.)

 

[DDRJake]

Thanks for the DD. How will this affect the Rum achievement?

We'll be keeping that achievement as it is. Although as for any new achievements involving Rûm? well, we'll see...

Any cooldown on the raising Janissaries interaction? Do they spawn at maximum strength? (And as such cost only 50 MIL)?

We are considering adding a cooldown to the action, although they do spawn at no morale, and so cannot be moved until the gain their monthly morale tick.

Forming rum is free patch and rum mechanics paid?

Correct. Forming Rum is free, Pashas and Janissary units are paid parts of the expansion.

I hope Mamluks will have a special government type, maybe shared with the janissaries when they take over Turkey.

We'll see next week.

can ak quyonlu form rum? they are of turkish culture but not a baylik

Yes they can. It's open to non-nomadic Turkish nations. It will be no surprise that, due to the requirements to eliminate Ottomans and Byzantium, neither of those nations may form Rûm.

They still do pretty well in hands off games. Here's a recent one I did:
View attachment 303905

Mind the Mamluks do have a lot more teeth than the used to all the same

I see your Nice Persian overnight and raise you the hands-off Mughals of doom!

In 1.23, Persia and Mughals make more frequent appearances on the map. This one was a formation from the very ambitious Khorasan.

 

[Me_]

Won't the change make Janissaries quite rare, though? The bonus isn't that great and doubled reinforcement cost is a strong downside. I wonder what the ratio for Janissary Decadence is. I would suspect that it's less than 50%, maybe 40% or even 30%.

 

[seriousgigi]

if you find caliphate mechanic is ridiculous then remove crusade modifiers applying to europeans fighting against the ottomans.

 

[chrisisarea]

many People underestimate the fact how strong -10% Fire/shock dmg is , together with the army Drilling they are the only Country can gain an -20% dmg reduction.
The new janissary models have a great synergy to be a strong mid/late game force, however the Ottomans cavalary is what makes the Ottomans early game so strong not their infantry at all or the old jannisary modifier.

 

[Smeeved]

Looks good, albeit janissaries seem a bit expensive for what you get when you compare them to banners, streltsy and cossack cavalry.

 

[Trin Tragula]

considering this dlc changes quite a lot for the timurids, will the mughals get some love?

It seems to me that as one of the major countries in eu4 timeframe, the Mughals deserve a lot of love

Mughals certainly do deserve some love but they are more of an Indian phenomenon than a middle eastern one.
One has to draw the line somewhere, we've spent quite a lot of time on Everything between Egypt and Anatolia and the Hindukush this time around

 

[Tombstone1903]

I like the addition of Pasha System and New Janissary units but couple changes would be good.
To recruit Janissaries you need heathen land that has 10 dev atleast and you spend 50 mil points to recruit them , on top they take double the cost to reinforce. Pros of this unit is reduced -10 shock taken and - 10 fire damage taken. When I compare janisseries to manchu , cossacks and streltsy they look really lackluster. If 50 mil cost is what it takes to train a single janissary unit they should be much stronger but their numbers should be few , like %20 of total army at most.
For pasha system bonuses look alright except the +20 construction cost.Currently best way to use them would be building up Anatolia then sending pashas to reduce the state maintenance. I would prefer if pashas were to be sent to more distant provinces of empire. Changing building cost increase to -%15 tax income would represent decentralized nature of far away eyalets like Egypt , Iraq , Tunis etc.

 

[Kubuini]

are you crazy? there is no chance for ottomans against austria, poland, russia or other european alliances.

you must add a land moral (10-15%) national idea to ottoman empire.

spain has 15% moral 5% discipline
france has 20% moral 5% discipline
poland has 15% moral 5% discipline
austria has 10% moral 3% discipline
ottomans has 0% moral 5% discipline

is that a joke?

i am not even talking about every war against europeans they have +10% land moral from ridiculous crusade modifier.

Well, national ideas are supposed to give some flavor and uniqueness. If you start giving the same ideas to all tags, then the entire point is lost.

Also don't forget that Ottomans can get their own religion-related morale boost (+10% with full legalism)