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EU4 - Development Diary - 30th of October 2018

Hello and welcome back to another huge dev diary! Today we’ll talk about two new features, a small one and a big one. We then end the diary with two changes to balance. Also as usual, large warning on that all of this is work in progress and might not match the final product!

First up is a small little feature based on the Portuguese Marines and them attacking forts along the coast of Africa and India. Naval Barrage is the same as Artillery Barrage but it requires the cannons of your ships instead of field artillery. It goes by amount of cannons on the coast / 100 to the fort level to determine if you can break open it’s walls. It will cost 50 military points just like the normal Artillery Barrage.

ART NOT FINAL
upload_2018-10-30_9-10-7.png


The Portuguese also gets a small bonus by a change we’ll describe in the next feature for the dev diary.


The big feature of today is Flagships. A more bombastic and expensive ship as the pride of your navy. It houses the commanding officers of the fleet who plan the engagement and mission the ships take part in. They are unlocked to any nation that fields a navy of 3 000 sailors, or 15 heavies worth, and it costs 100 ducats to build.

ART/INTERFACE NOT FINAL
upload_2018-10-30_9-10-43.png


A flagship consists of up to 3 modifications on it. Each modification you pick will raise the maintenance cost of your flagship. Some modifications will only buff the flagship itself but some will buff the entire fleet that it’s part of. There are also some modifications that are restricted to specific nations.

ART/INTERFACE NOT FINAL
upload_2018-10-30_9-39-19.png


Here is a list as of this writing the current generic modifications we have in the game.
  • Mass Load Cannons: 15% more cannons on flagship
  • Hull Sheathing: +50% Flagship Durability
  • Trade Route Map: +1 Trade Power for all ships in fleet (Yes not only lightships)
  • Command Aftercastle: +5% Morale to Ships in Fleet
  • Improved Crows Nest: +5 Engagement Width
  • Mortars: +1 Blockade Impact on Siege
  • Standardized Signal Book: +1 Movement Speed for every ship in Fleet
Then we also have a few country specific ones.
  • Portuguese Navigators: +100 Exploration Mission Range
  • Portuguese Bombardiers: -50% Naval Barrage Cost
  • Portuguese Trade Route Map: +2 Trade power for every ship in the fleet.
  • Spanish Grand Armada: -30% Attrition for fleet
  • Spanish Treasure Fleet: Cannons count twice for hunting pirates
  • Spanish Mass Load Cannons: 30% More cannons on Flagship
  • Swedish Mass Load Cannons: +100 More Cannons on Flagship
  • Dutch Courage: 10% Morale bonus in fleet.
ART/INTERFACE NOT FINAL
upload_2018-10-30_9-36-19.png


Next are the balance changes we’ve done. These are not tied with the future paid content but we are experimenting a bit with it to see how it gets received. There’s been a lot of discussion on the current meta with idea groups both on our forums and other platforms. So over the last couple of weeks we’ve been collecting data on what idea sets that are picked by players to get a proper statistical overview on where the meta lies. For clarification the data as follows is per player, per game. This means if two players in the same game picks the same idea groups, it will be counted twice. If you as a player start two seperate games and pick an idea group it will be counted twice. If you pick a group and then unpick it to pick another, it will count both instances of groups. I hope this explains what the data this is based on actually is.

Now one of the things we can see that Exploration ideas are the most popular idea set of all counting for 11% of the picks. Which makes sense, it’s an idea group that opens up a whole area for the player. Lowest on the list is Plutocracy with an abysmal 0.79%, one I’ve seen many point as an interesting and good group, but it’s unpopularity is probably due to its very scarce availability. Even Aristocracy clocks in on 3% which I've seen some refer to as "trash tier" of the military ones.

So the most unpopular idea groups are the ones we focused the most on, minus plutocracy. They are as follows.
  • Maritime ideas: 1.41%
  • Naval ideas: 1.09%
  • Spy ideas: 1.07%
upload_2018-10-30_9-13-42.png


We also focused on some pet peeves of ours like influence ideas which was the third most picked one, religious, expansion, humanist, administrative, diplomatic and innovativeness ideas. I’ll attach the change log to the end of this dev diary but I’ll try to put some more descriptive text to some of the more important changes.

So first I want to cover the changes to Espionage. Espionage gained the -20% AE Impact from Influence ideas to replace it’s -10% Liberty Desire. In return Influence gained -15% Subject Liberty desire to replace their 25% Heir Chance. Though Espionage gained another little fun feature.

On the 5th idea for Espionage you now get, besides just cheaper fabrication cost, the ability to fabricate claims on behalf of your vassals. This works for any type of vassal except tributaries. Important to note is that the claim will belong to the vassal and not you.

upload_2018-10-30_9-13-52.png


Another big change is to the colonisation game, We’ve thrown things around a little. The first two ideas of Exploration have been swapped and Exploration have been made to be a bit slower in colonization. Instead we have have buffed Expansion ideas to be the idea group that speeds up your colonisation. It gives you two colonist and way faster speed in getting it done. It’s finisher have been changed to give +5 Max States as well.

An experimental thing we are testing out now and seeing how it plays out as well is to put DLC locked values into the idea groups. People have for a long time asked for Innovativeness Gain in Innovative Ideas for instance. Now it got 50% of that, which converts into 5% Idea Cost if you don’t own Rule Britannia. A similar thing is -20% cheaper CoT Upgrade in Expansion ideas and -25% Expel Minority Cost for Exploration ideas.

Last important change is to Religious. The +2% Heretic Missionary Strength have been removed and instead we have 50% Missionary Maintenance there. Now you might be thinking “Well that value is worthless, missionaries costs literally nothing!” We’re changing that and removing the block on religious conversion requiring you to have the province fully cored and stated. Instead it will be a soft block coming from conversion now going to be real expensive. So to be extra clear, you will be able to convert any province again, it will just cost you a bucket load of ducats.

The idea is to have a non-linear cost increase based on the autonomy of the province you are trying to convert. At the moment this is up still for being tweaked and balanced but the raw formula for the yearly cost for all math geeks: base cost + dev factor * development ^ ( autonomy base + local autonomy * autonomy factor) * local/global missionary maintenance cost

upload_2018-10-30_9-14-3.png

Which monthly cost for a 20 development province can be visualized like this with all base and factors being set to 1 and no modifier to the missionary maintenance cost.

It does mean while converting the 100% autonomy territories of 3 dev will cost extra, it won’t be that super more expensive. But if you for instance have Samarkand for some reason try to convert it while it not being cored and states, it’s going to cost you a fair deal.

Following with this change, since missionaries are now actually gonna ask you to pay up, we’ve also changed a bit on how the maintenance slider works for them. Previously you could avoid paying any cost because you just needed to have enough strength on it’s own as the slider only affected the base values of missionary strength. Second if you did lower the slider and could make progress before, but without those 2% you will get a hard stop on any progress to the conversion. Now instead the slider decides how much of your conversion speed is actually generated, so if you are making progress on the conversion and lower it, it will instead lower the amount of progress you get.

So if you are paying dough, you have enough strength, it will always generate some progress for you.

upload_2018-10-30_9-14-29.png


Also with this change it means I've reworked the missionary tooltip also a bit, since missionaries can cost differently depending on where you can see them, it will list all your active missionaries and their cost.

upload_2018-10-30_9-14-34.png


And here's a collection of the balance changes we've covered today.
- Gamebalance: Missionary maintenance cost now costs development^(1+local autonomy)
- Gamebalance: Missionary Maintenance no longer only operates on the base strength but instead it is a percentage of how much progress you get. So now as long as you pay money, you will always get some progress.
- Gamebalance: Expansion 3rd idea buffed to 20 Settler Growth.
- Gamebalance: Expansion 4th idea switched out to be -50% Rival Border Fort Maintenance & -20% CoT Upgrade Cost(Dharma).
- Gamebalance: Expansion 6th idea switched out to be 1 colonist & 5% Settler Chance
- Gamebalance: Expansion Finisher now gives +5 States instead of Maintenance
- Gamebalance: Innovative 2nd idea switched out to be 50% Innovativeness Gain(Rule Britannia) or -5% Idea Cost(Non-Rule Britannia).
- Gamebalance: Innovative 5th idea switched out to be 25% Institution Spread.
- Gamebalance: Religious 4th idea buffed to have 2 Tolerance of Own Faith.
- Gamebalance: Religious 6th idea switched out to be -50% Missionary Maintenance Cost.
- Gamebalance: Humanist 3rd idea nerfed to 2 tolerance of heretic.
- Gamebalance: Humanist 7th idea nerfed to 2 tolerance of heathens.
- Gamebalance: Maritime 1st idea switched to 100% Naval Tradition from Trade.
- Gamebalance: Maritime 6th idea switched to +1 Free Leader and -25% Admiral Cost
- Gamebalance: Maritime 7th idea buffed to give +25% Privateering efficiency.
- Gamebalance: Exploration 1st idea and 2nd idea switched places.
- Gamebalance: Exploration 4th idea nerfed to 10 Settler Growth.
- Gamebalance: Exploration 5th idea tariffs nerfed to 10% and given 20% Envoy Travel Time.
- Gamebalance: Exploration 6th idea switched to give -25% Expel Minority Cost or 5% Settler Chance without DLC.
- Gamebalance: Diplomatic 3rd idea switched out for 0.5 Prestige
- Gamebalance: Influence 2nd idea switched out for -15% subject liberty desire
- Gamebalance: Influence 4th idea switched out for +1 diplomatic relations
- Gamebalance: Influence 6th idea lost +1 diplomatic relations
- Gamebalance: Espionage 3rd idea lost 10% Province Trade Power Modifier.
- Gamebalance: Espionage 4th idea switched out for 20% AE Impact.
- Gamebalance: Espionage 5th idea buffed with Claim Fabrication onbehalf of Vassals.
- Gamebalance: Quantity 5th idea switched out for 33% Supply Limit Modifier.
- Gamebalance: Naval 4th idea switched out for 1 Yearly Naval Tradition.

That’s everything for today! Next week will be @neondt who will be going through a bunch of the country specific flavor for missions.
 
Last edited:

Piotrzeci

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First Naval Doctrines in Britannia and now Flagships for the new DLC. And here I am wondering why I ever got Mare Nostrum....
For coast raiding Berbers, more ways for AI to use spy network too annoy you and condottiere which definitely makes wars more interesting and will never make you rage quit.
 

EnvyDemon

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The first two ideas of Exploration have been swapped

Honestly, the was my biggest pet peeve with Exploration. The fact you got the Colonist before the ability to explore was really annoying and wasted time.
 

Thrake

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Expansion and explorarion changes are horrible, colonisation is too slow anyway especially now that your adding more provinces in the new world and colonial regions, but now your pretty much forcing people to take both exploration and expansion to colonise properly which is terrible.

This makes no sense. Extra provinces don't make you colonize more slowly, they only either let you colonize more or allow more colonial powers to settle colonies. colonizing without competition is boring and irrealistic. More provinces to colonize means the idea group is never wasted even if you come late into play.

First Naval Doctrines in Britannia and now Flagships for the new DLC. And here I am wondering why I ever got Mare Nostrum....
Flagship concept sounds pretty cool nontheless.

Isn't that a bit late to ask yourself that question?
 

Spughety

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- Gamebalance: Exploration 1st idea and 2nd idea switched places.
In my opinion, this is a bad change. So looking at this changes implications on regions other than Europe such as Africa it makes the new first idea pointless. To further explain I will use Kilwa as an example. First, losing your colonist as the first idea means you start your first colony later which will mean something more in a moment. So, as Kilwa when you get your explorer and have no Colonial Range advisor and own the province of Mahafaly. The furthest south you can explore is Cost of Natal and maybe natal Basin (I can't remember), you cannot explore Coast of Ciskei. And for coastline provinces, other than marching down, you can only learn about Natal, Mtetwa, and Matsolo. So if you want to explore the Cape region more you have to march down. But since you haven't acquired a colonist yet you cant chose your natives policy and natives will attack you. Which means you bleed manpower or explore very close to home. So, having an explorer first means close to nothing. But, if you get a colonist first you can set your native policy and colonize the province of Inhambane. Allowing that province to finish sooner and getting your 3rd idea and a range advisor it means you can colonize the province of Cape. Basically what I'm trying to get across is in regions other than Europe having an explorer first means nothing because you cannot explore much useful ocean or coastline due to range, and since you do not have a native policy you cannot afford to explore the land due to manpower constraints, and you lose a lot not being able to start a colony sooner. I hope how I explained it made sense.
 

Bki

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It would be nice if devs could provide some reasons for the balance changes instead of forcing players to guess. I still have no idea why conversion needs to be changed so much and why Influence has to be nerfed to the ground.

An idea group being good isn't allowed. So they move a great idea in a good group into a bad group, and they end up with two mediocre groups so that neither end up being used.
 

Thrudgelmir2333

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An idea group being good isn't allowed. So they move a great idea in a good group into a bad group, and they end up with two mediocre groups so that neither end up being used.

Yeah and the goal is to make everything mediocre so that the players will have the incentive to try everything with every country in every year until we all hopefully reach EU4 Nirvana.

Wait is this all just an elaborate scheme so we will convert into Buddhism?
 
Last edited:

master_kong

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I appreciate the effort to fix a lot of the problems of game with balance changes/features. But i was really expecting expansion idea group finisher to unlock charter companies(locking the mechanic to the rest). It's too ugly to see bunch of irrelevant countries buying irrelevant provinces from anywhere. Genuinely disappointed about that.

Also how AI nations use idea groups is a very underrated topic. For example, AI nations having many provinces are tend to pick economic and it's the most popular first idea group among AI nations from what i've seen. This causes stable, boring AI blobs everywhere. Relating economic ideas with how many provinces they have doesn't make any sense anyway.

Second example for that is exporation ideas. It's related with having how many ports this time. Really? And you see why Ottomans, Mamluks, Ming choose exploration.

Really liked the conversion changes alongside the humanist nerf btw.
 

kgmi

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For coast raiding Berbers, more ways for AI to use spy network too annoy you and condottiere which definitely makes wars more interesting and will never make you rage quit.
Wait, now that you guys have mentioned it, I am starting to realize where the "discontent sown" modifier comes from now, that always tanks my legitemacy in mid-lategame

An idea group being good isn't allowed. So they move a great idea in a good group into a bad group, and they end up with two mediocre groups so that neither end up being used.
This really annoys me, I want ideas to always feel like they have an impact, something I look forward to unlock, even the good idea groups, I want Economic to give me +20tax, production and -20% building cost. This is what keeps me excited, looking forward to unlock ideas. I would rather they buff all the trash ones, so they are worth picking. I dont wan't 1 good idea 1 bad idea, I also don't want 2 meh ideas, what I want is 2 great ideas. And yet Maritime gets a nerf, I don't even know what to say, might as well replace the 2 maneuver with -10% shipbuilding time. I am legit scared about this whole "idea group rework now", consdering not upgrading my version for the first time ever.
 
Last edited:

TheDungen

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As for Sweden what you should do is that you get make it a mission to build a flagship and the mission gives it a special unique huge bonus. But the moment it is finished there's an event which takes it away (The mission should be called 'The Vasa' to make it totally obvious that it's going to happen. But the mission chain leads on to Sweden building the naval base and warf at Karlskrona.

Maybe it could also set a flag for an event that gives you a free flagship called Dristigheten the first time you win a close battle.
 
Last edited:

TheMeInTeam

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Yeah and the goal is to make everything mediocre so that the players will have the incentive to try everything with every country in every year until we all hopefully reach EU4 Nirvana.

Wait is this all just an elaborate scheme so we will convert into Buddhism?

The proposed changes make Buddhism weaker relative to other religions than it is at present :p.
 

Thrudgelmir2333

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As for Sweden what you should do is that you get make it a mission to build a flagship and the mission gives it a special unique huge bonus. But the moment it is finished there's an event which take sit away. But the mission chain leads on to Sweden building the naval base and warf at Karlskrona.

That's very.... Stellaris.

So it's probably too smart for EU4
 

adhd_lama

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Wait, now that you guys have mentioned it, I am starting to realize where the "discontent sown" modifier comes from now, that always tanks my legitemacy in mid-lategame

That one doesn't come from Mare Nostrum ;)
 

TheMeInTeam

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Any intention of addressing republics' being hot garbage by the way? There's a reason pluto pick rate is in the toilet, and it's not because it's worse than naval.

Tier 10 reforms won't happen in a normal game, so republics soak in a gimped second half of the game without nearly the early benefit to justify the hit.

Also, the data and "balance" changes in the opening post simply don't align. The more I look at it, the more of a head scratcher nerfing average-ish pick rate ideas and leaving some top 5 and bottom 5 intact seems.

These changes are not consistent with what the word "balance" means.
 

fizikus

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Sorry guys, I didnt read all the 400 posts, before I wrote this. Also, what I write is my opinion which might or might not correlate with your opinions.

Dear people working on EU4, in my opinion the ideas rework is needed, but you are doing it wrong. I think that:

1. Idea groups should be based on ideas, and then balance them, not the other way around. Expansion should help expand, so CCR could be there, CB on countries living on other continent could be there. Admin should help the administration, so #states, state maintenance, autonomy reduction, decrease of minimum autonomy could be there. Innovative could contain tech reduction, and possibly -5 or -10 years ahead of time (so you could research techs 5-10 years earlier).

2. Maluses (or whatever is the opposite of bonus) should be allowed. Innovative should be OP in terms of how fast a country ideas can research tech, but could have drawbacks, like + unrest due to priests dont like heliocentrism, - papal inflence as pope don't like your research. Expansion could give AE increase, as if a country next to you sees that you are expanding, and conquering his neighbours, he should tolerate it less.

3. You shouldnt nerf exploration because people love it. I think people love exploration because (at least when you play with the game the first few times) colonisation is fun. Not because it is OP. BTW if colonisation becomes slower, we will see even more Frisian, Danish, Norwegian, etc colonies, which might be good or bad.

4. Maritime got worse, and Naval may be slightly better, but you still did not fix the issue. Naval could get tradepower from heavies and galleys (still does not fix the problem), Maritime (google told me it means "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity.") could get +100% light ship tradepower or something like that. Also, Thalassocracy is hard to enact, and provides minimal benefit.

5. When balancing ideas, ask the advice of the best players of the dev clash. Like: "ok we see, that half of your ideas are military always, what can we do to change this without disrupting single player balance"
 

Thrudgelmir2333

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Sorry guys, I didnt read all the 400 posts, before I wrote this. Also, what I write is my opinion which might or might not correlate with your opinions.

Dear people working on EU4, in my opinion the ideas rework is needed, but you are doing it wrong. I think that:

1. Idea groups should be based on ideas, and then balance them, not the other way around. Expansion should help expand, so CCR could be there, CB on countries living on other continent could be there. Admin should help the administration, so #states, state maintenance, autonomy reduction, decrease of minimum autonomy could be there. Innovative could contain tech reduction, and possibly -5 or -10 years ahead of time (so you could research techs 5-10 years earlier).

2. Maluses (or whatever is the opposite of bonus) should be allowed. Innovative should be OP in terms of how fast a country ideas can research tech, but could have drawbacks, like + unrest due to priests dont like heliocentrism, - papal inflence as pope don't like your research. Expansion could give AE increase, as if a country next to you sees that you are expanding, and conquering his neighbours, he should tolerate it less.

3. You shouldnt nerf exploration because people love it. I think people love exploration because (at least when you play with the game the first few times) colonisation is fun. Not because it is OP. BTW if colonisation becomes slower, we will see even more Frisian, Danish, Norwegian, etc colonies, which might be good or bad.

4. Maritime got worse, and Naval may be slightly better, but you still did not fix the issue. Naval could get tradepower from heavies and galleys (still does not fix the problem), Maritime (google told me it means "connected with the sea, especially in relation to seafaring commercial or military activity.") could get +100% light ship tradepower or something like that. Also, Thalassocracy is hard to enact, and provides minimal benefit.

5. When balancing ideas, ask the advice of the best players of the dev clash. Like: "ok we see, that half of your ideas are military always, what can we do to change this without disrupting single player balance"

I think colonisation's problems could be mostly tweaked by more properly defining spheres of influence between the nations a la Tordesilhas. I don't like seeing random new neighbors in Brazil, either, but the Tordesilhas feature seemed to remove most ocurrences of this, fortunately, so maybe in the late Age of Reformation there should be a new Tordesillas mechanic rolled out that further carves out colonial claims to include protestant and reformed nations, but make it based on warfare, diplomacy, etc not religion?