EU4 - Development Diary - 25th of October 2016

[TheDungen]

I'd like for Smaland to be split into Kalmar and Jonkoping. Any Swedes or Scandinavians agree with this?

No Kalmar was the Key to the entire area. Kalmar nyckel (The key of Kalmar, not a litteral key) was considered one of the keys to the Swedish domain (along with as I recall it Älvsborg and Sveaborg). Jönköping was exactly that, a köping, a trading hamlet.. Neither Copenhagen nor Stockholm could reach to fully control the borderlands, the castle of Kalmar was the means to project one's will in the region. It was perhaps the most important strongpoint in all of baltic scandinavia. There's a reson that the Kalmar union was called the Kalmar union.

I could see the point in splitting Småland, yes.

For what? Game play reasons? Because historically it makes little sense. Jönköping is a city where provinces meet (Where Västgötaslätten meets småland) not a province in it's own right.
Also sweden does not need more provinces.

 

[Wagonlitz]

- What I don't get is why you're okay with this:

But you're not okay with this:

Because of this:

Why wouldn't I be OK with the first? Because Nørrejylland was split in more historical and realistic provinces? The old Nordjylland/Midtjylland split follows the current regions and that's a way to split Nørrejylland which is absolutely unrealistic. Due to the Jutlandic ridge among other things there wasn't really much trade or connection east west; it was mainly north south.

Whereas Sønderjylland (Slesvig) doesn't really make sense to split unless you add Slesvig-Holstein-Gottorp, and if you want to add more provinces then there are more obvious ones. E.g. split the new Nordjylland and make the southern half MIdtjylland and the northern half Vensyssel. Or make another island province, which also would put even more emphasis on needing to beat the navy to take Denmark, which is historical (a historical fluke, which can't be reproduced in game as long as we don't get a really detailed weather system, aside).

you do need more Danish provinces in order to integrate Norway

So you are saying you think that Denmark should have more provinces in 1444? Because historically we didn't gain anything to integrate Norway. And we didn't have to wait decades or have it at a considerable cost either.

Come on, that's using 7 year old logic and you know it. With that type of thinking you could say that Russia should have an even larger navy in 1700 because of all that coastline, but you don't because you know most of it is useless which is why Russia is always willing to take over other countries for a warm water port, *cough*Crimea*cough*, *cough*Königsberg*cough*.

You can't compare the coast of Russia to the coast of Denmark Norway due to climate differences. Also Russia has always been land focused, whereas we and the Norwegians always have been extremely naval focused. There literally was harbours/landing sites all over the coast. In fact in an attempt to boost the larger ones the king made a law trying to reduce the use of the smaller landing sites. Again I'm not saying that Denmark should be stronger than the UK; I'm saying that you can't go against our number of ports equaling or being larger than the UK due to us having a much longer coastilne. And always having had to extensively use the sea. So that wouldn't be unhistorical. And your argument about a player being able to focus on naval, but the AI being poorer is what I'd call 7 year old logic. Why should the game be shifted just because the AI is lacking in the naval area (and many other areas) instead of trying to improve the AI all the time? There are many ways you can get ahead of the AI, so saying that a player will be able to beat the AI if this happens, isn't really a good argument.

Denmark-Norway wasn't important in history as the Dutch because they were a monarchy.

Please provide evidence for that claim. You were more important than us yes, but that was not due to us being a monarchy. We had a strong sea presence too---and we had a middle class too actually. In fact, at least here in Scandinavia, the king actually promoted the middle class, since it was what allowed him to be absolutist, whereas the nobility was and obstacle to it. It's not a coincidence that you see the middle class/new upper class flourish after absolutism is established. And we had a strong merchant navy too. Not as strong as you, but not insignificant either.

Also it could well have been different. Had Christian IV not intervened in the 30 years war in 1623 things might well have been different. That was a really unfortunate time to intervene on the protestant side and we got slapped by Austria. Had we waited say a decade and then intervened (either with the Swedes or alone) then things could well have been different. In fact it's a good question what would have happened had Denmark and Sweden intervened together instead of separately with a decade of separation.

Also not completely sure on what you meant by what I quoted. I assumed that you are missing an "as" before important, but in case you don't then you are wrong in saying that we weren't important, since we most certainly were. Not as important as the Dutch, but we most certainly were important.

For what? Game play reasons? Because historically it makes little sense.

To better simulate the back and forth between Denmark and Sweden. But I agree that it is a bit tenious.

 

[Metz]

What about splitting Nordjylland into Viborg in the south and Aalborg/Skagen in the north?


Also, regarding the frozen Baltic.... Why not have special conditions for the Baltic where having your navy out at certain months causes attrition and your armies can cross straits to simulate frozen water?

Or at least a rare event that lets you know that within the next couple of months, the Baltic will be frozen over?

 

[Itchel]

What about splitting Nordjylland into Viborg in the south and Aalborg/Skagen in the north?


Also, regarding the frozen Baltic.... Why not have special conditions for the Baltic where having your navy out at certain months causes attrition and your armies can cross straits to simulate frozen water?

Or at least a rare event that lets you know that within the next couple of months, the Baltic will be frozen over?

Yikes, I don't think the baltic is that far in the arctic that the ocean freezes over.

 

[Wagonlitz]

What about splitting Nordjylland into Viborg in the south and Aalborg/Skagen in the north?

Ehm that was what I said. Though I guess you don't know the terms I used. Geographically and historically (and today too, but most people are ignorant of this) Jutland, or Jylland in Danish, goes from the Ejder and to Skagen. The Ejder is at the southern border of Slesvig. I.e. the in game provinces of Slesvig and the provinces north or it comprises Jylland. Jylland historically is divided in two main parts, which again are divided in smaller parts. The southern part, south of the Kongeå, is called Sønderjylland, and the larger part north of the Kongeå Nørrejylland. Sønder and nørre just are words for southern and northern. Sønderjylland started being called Slesvig around the 1200s, though the name Sønderjylland never disappeared from public use as seen by how Moth uses it. In the 1800s with the rise of nationalism it entirely replaced Slesvig in Danish and whether one used Slesvig or Sønderjylland showed one's allegiance. If you wanted Sønderjylland to be Danish you used Sønderjylland; Slesvig if you wanted it German. I.e. Sønderjylland and Slesvig are synonymous, and in the game's time frame there wasn't really any implicit connotations on which you used---and neither is there today.

Anyway the new province called Nordjylland in 1.19 ies in Nørrejylland. It comprises land south of Limfjorden and land north of it. Limfjorden is the large fjord almost cutting off the northern part of Jutland (that it today does it is artificial in that the channel is maintained and would shut again if not maintained. And from the 1200s and until the 1820s, when a storm reopened the channel, the channel was shut and Agger Tange provided a very narrow land bridge).
The 1.19 Nordjylland as mentioned has land south of Limfjorden; that to a large degree is located in Midtjylland. Hence why I proposed calling it Midtjylland if you split the 1.19 Nordjylland. The land north of Limfjorden mainly is Vendsyssel---hence why I proposed calling it that.

Using city names as province names is a no go; and Skagen wasn't even near important enough to give name to the whole Nørrejyske Ø (Northern Jutlandic Island---i.e. the land north of Limfjorden). As menitoned earlier in this thread administrative units either were named after fortresses, like Koldinghus county, or after geographical areas. In game provinces by far should be given geographical names, like Øst-, Midt-, and Vestjylland, or Vendsyssel, because they often are much larger than the areas fortresses game name to. Koldinghus is fine though---and hopefully has the name changed to Koldinghus, since Kolding is utterly anachronistic and an eyesore, since it historically was named after the fortress, Koldinghus, and not the city of Kolding.

Also, regarding the frozen Baltic.... Why not have special conditions for the Baltic where having your navy out at certain months causes attrition and your armies can cross straits to simulate frozen water?

Better not to simulate it. While the Danish straits can "freeze", as in being hard to sail through, often, they most of the time can't really be crossed on foot safely. And especially not by an army. Historically what you did when they "froze" and you couldn't easily use ships was to walk while dragging a life boat/small row boat with a rope. That boat would then be used when you got to areas where the ice wasn't solid enough to walk on or if somebody fell through.
1658 is an utter fluke in that the straits actually froze shut. It's something that as far as I'm aware hasn't happened before or since. And that isn't surprising when you remember that this is around the middle of the Little Ice Age and around the time where the coldest temperatures were measured. So if you want to include some event allowing you to cross without beating the navy it would only be able to fire around the 1650s---is it then really worth doing since you'll know pretty much exactly when it'll happen. And you can't even have it not happen, since Earth's climate wasn't significantly influenced by man back then. So you need to have it happen every game and possibly even at exactly the same time. This is something so special and narrow that I don't think it's fitting to put in game.

Also in your proposal who would take attrition? The navy or the crossing army?

Yikes, I don't think the baltic is that far in the arctic that the ocean freezes over.

Most of the northern parts, i.e.t he bay of Bothnia, actually freeze IIRC. Anyway were talking about the Danish straits which do "freeze" from time to time as mentioned, but normally you can't really use that for anything militarily.
What he's referencing is 1658 where the winter was so cold that the Great Belt (~20 km across at it's narrowest) actually froze over. Unfortunately we were at war with Sweden at the time and the dastardly Swedes exploited this freezing over to bypass the navy and cross into Sjælland and steal the entirety of Eastern Denmark.
Anyway as mentioned it's a complete fluke and something which was only possible because there was the perfect conditions in the little ice age culminating in those years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_across_the_Belts

 

[Celtih]

I cant install the new (1.19). My stream doesn't download it automatik and I can't find any place to do it manually.
Do anyone know what the problem is and how i solve it?
The patch i have at the moment is 1.18.4.0..

Hope someone can help

 

[Itchel]

Most of the northern parts, i.e.t he bay of Bothnia, actually freeze IIRC. Anyway were talking about the Danish straits which do "freeze" from time to time as mentioned, but normally you can't really use that for anything militarily.
What he's referencing is 1658 where the winter was so cold that the Great Belt (~20 km across at it's narrowest) actually froze over. Unfortunately we were at war with Sweden at the time and the dastardly Swedes exploited this freezing over to bypass the navy and cross into Sjælland and steal the entirety of Eastern Denmark.
Anyway as mentioned it's a complete fluke and something which was only possible because there was the perfect conditions in the little ice age culminating in those years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_across_the_Belts

That'd make sense. I assumed the entire baltic would freeze over. My bad.

 

[Kapi96]

Another European focused patch? Booo!!!! There`s other parts of the world than just Europe you know!

 

[Wagonlitz]

I cant install the new (1.19). My stream doesn't download it automatik and I can't find any place to do it manually.
Do anyone know what the problem is and how i solve it?
The patch i have at the moment is 1.18.4.0..

Hope someone can help

1.19 hasn't been released yet; they've said they aim at releasing it in early November.

 

[TorquemadaStark]

Yikes, I don't think the baltic is that far in the arctic that the ocean freezes over.

It used to, at least parts of it definitely, during the time period. Up until the beginning of 20th century, really. There are a lot of historical evidence and documentation on how people used to drive from Riga to Stockholm with sleds.

 

[aruon]

interesting. it'll definitely make the Kalmar Union collapse less. too bad scandinavia has no revolter states outside of sapmi, gotland, and finland to make a total collapse more epic.

 

[CoolSpin]

Point taken ^^

I got it from a Norwegian source for what it matters but it was of course talking about the Danish amt so... yeah.

Jotunheimen was fixed since the screenshot was taken too btw.

Any reason Bergenhus is called Bergenshus? When people say it like bergen shus, its so wrong. Its where i live, and t literally mean Bergen house, just google Bergenshus and bergenhus. There is a fort called Bergenhus festning (guarding the inlet to the port)

 

[Thornado86]

I'm fairly sure Lofoten is Norway's greatest source of income throughout history.

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Kongsberg sølvverk was way more profitable than the fish up in Lofoten (in itself), as it gave at least 10% of Denmark's GDP. Lofoten sure was a great spot for fishing, but it was just one major hot spot for fishing once a year. If you compare fishing in Norway in general to Kongsberg sølvverk, then fishing would probably be the most profitable. But I doubt we can argue that some major fishing spot up in Lofoten is comparable to other special province goods modifiers such as in Dalaskogen and Triol, whose productions made real differences for the entire european continent economically. If Norway is getting one of these province goods modifiers, then I think it should be kongsberg sølvverk, starting with copper in 1444, and changing to gold in 1623 by event. However, then many other provinces in the game should get them too (and I'd prefer that, albeit not as powerful as triol and dalaskogen).

 

[TheDungen]

Yikes, I don't think the baltic is that far in the arctic that the ocean freezes over.

The sea does not freeze over but the ports all freeze up. And the gap between finland and sweden actually did freeze over from time to time. It's not for nothign it's called the little ice age.

It used to, at least parts of it definitely, during the time period. Up until the beginning of 20th century, really. There are a lot of historical evidence and documentation on how people used to drive from Riga to Stockholm with sleds.

Not in a straight line though. They as I understand it drove first over to Finland and then over to Sweden.

interesting. it'll definitely make the Kalmar Union collapse less. too bad scandinavia has no revolter states outside of sapmi, gotland, and finland to make a total collapse more epic.

Do you find that the union does collapse very often? In all my latest game it seems eternal.

 

[sporefan00]

I really hate the new political mapmode with terrain elements. I hated terrain mode as a whole. At least add some white borders so they will be distinguishable.
Also, wastelands ruin everything, please do not add them. I thought that you tried to remove them entirely.

 

[Solfall]

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Kongsberg sølvverk was way more profitable than the fish up in Lofoten (in itself), as it gave at least 10% of Denmark's GDP. Lofoten sure was a great spot for fishing, but it was just one major hot spot for fishing once a year. If you compare fishing in Norway in general to Kongsberg sølvverk, then fishing would probably be the most profitable. But I doubt we can argue that some major fishing spot up in Lofoten is comparable to other special province goods modifiers such as in Dalaskogen and Triol, whose productions made real differences for the entire european continent economically. If Norway is getting one of these province goods modifiers, then I think it should be kongsberg sølvverk, starting with copper in 1444, and changing to gold in 1623 by event. However, then many other provinces in the game should get them too (and I'd prefer that, albeit not as powerful as triol and dalaskogen).

You make a good point. It is true that Lofoten only receives the large influx of cod in the winter. I suppose it's not possible for unique resources to activate during certain times of the year. One could just make the resource static with the added income evened out.
It also says online that the Kongsberg Sølvverk started in 1623.

 

[grommile]

Also, wastelands ruin everything, please do not add them. I thought that you tried to remove them entirely.

No, it's only obsessive paint-the-world modders who try to remove wastelands entirely.

 

[sporefan00]

No, it's only obsessive paint-the-world modders who try to remove wastelands entirely.

Well, i am actually the type of guy who hates random black blobs on my map. (now terrain blobs)

 

[ecrurudesby]

1.19 hasn't been released yet; they've said they aim at releasing it in early November.

Ooohhh have they brought it forward? Last I saw (in the DD on the 18th) it was the end of November.

 

[grommile]

Well, i am actually the type of guy who hates random black blobs on my map. (now terrain blobs)

If you don't like the game-mechanical implications of wastelands, there are - I believe - several mods catering to you. I am sure those mods will dispose of these new wastelands just like they've disposed of the existing ones.

If it's just the blobs of grey that bother you, there's a configuration option to make it paint wastelands in a nearby country's colour if that country owns most of the surrounding provinces.