EU4 Development Diary - 25th February 2016

[LikeNothing]

Any mechanism to make megablobs more realistically clumsy is welcome. But I fear the boundaries of the various preset States/Regions will be too arbitrary.

Is there no possibility to allow the player to define/redefine the boundaries of States/Regions ad hoc?

For example, why is the boundary between Northern and Southern Germany set at that place? Why is Moravia in Northern but not Southern Germany? Is the game deliberately encouraging the Prussian player to annex Bohemia but not the Austrian player? If so, why? Is it more realistic or immersive this way?

 

[Demetrios]

So no gameplay problems but just immersion? I always considered distant overseas just as an abstract concept of more autonomous provinces anyway.

If you've ever played Portugal or Spain and went into North Africa, it was a bit disconcerting to have a huge income gap between neighboring provinces for no discernible reason other than that one was considered "distant overseas" when it wasn't all that distant. Granted, the new system will be somewhat the same (i.e neighboring provinces having differences in income due to being considered in a state or a territory), but at least we will have the ability to upgrade provinces with maluses when we gain a new state to assign now rather than them being that way forever.

 

[ChildeR]

So no gameplay problems but just immersion? I always considered distant overseas just as an abstract concept of more autonomous provinces anyway.

I would count overseas coring before you connect to capital being cheaper a gameplay problem due to the incentives it creates. Also from "simulation" PoV: why is it easier to integrate territory before you have a land connection?

 

[Freudia]

You're right, there isn't, hasn't, and doesn't seem to be anything close to viable in building tall. Development? Building tall? Sure, development is nice for excess monarch points, but that's all. You need the points to keep up in tech, ideas - you don't have excess for your provinces. Conquering more with good development is just so much easier and cheaper and it weakens your rivals, who are a threat.

The game is about expansion, building tall isn't viable yet.

Of course the real fun thing about Development is that with Corruption working the way it's proposed in the OP, Development is even less viable now.

I would count overseas coring before you connect to capital being cheaper a gameplay problem due to the incentives it creates. Also from "simulation" PoV: why is it easier to integrate territory before you have a land connection?

Because Paradox decided that some sort of continental divide across a region where there're three continents that intersect with each other was a good idea.

Mind you, if that was the problem, they could have just settled for an 'Old World' continent encompassing Asia, Europe, Africa, and Oceania and a 'New World' continent encompassing North and South Americas. That'd fix the overseas coring problem while taking significantly less time to code. It'd also make a fair bit more sense from a gameplay standpoint, or at least it'd be a lot easier to explain.

 

[Kapitalisti]

But I fear the boundaries of the various preset States/Regions will be too arbitrary.

So far we've seen that areas like the British Isles, Low countries, France and Germany are these "arbitrary" regions. Aren't those pretty obvious and understandable boundaries? They don't really fit into what I'd see as arbitrary definitions.

( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary )
Arbitrary:
- not planned or chosen for a particular reason : not based on reason or evidence
- done without concern for what is fair or right

 

[Freudia]

So far we've seen that areas like the British Isles, Low countries, France and Germany are these "arbitrary" regions. Aren't those pretty obvious and understandable boundaries? They don't really fit into what I'd see as arbitrary definitions.

( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary )
Arbitrary:
- not planned or chosen for a particular reason : not based on reason or evidence
- done without concern for what is fair or right

They're based on 1821 boundaries and ignore the fact that regions could have developed differently throughout the time period. A prime example is how Silesia is in the North German region despite it being primarily Slavic and not Germanic in 1444.

 

[Cronpa]

I'm really hyped about the -50% coring cost almost everywhere. Will vassal annexation be -50% outside states as well?

 

[Kapitalisti]

They're based on 1821 boundaries and ignore the fact that regions could have developed differently throughout the time period. A prime example is how Silesia is in the North German region despite it being primarily Slavic and not Germanic in 1444.

There's still nothing arbitrary about that. Silesia is a part of Bohemia and will most likely remain within the HRE for most of the game, thus it's nicer to have it in the North German region.

 

[zdlugasz]

So far we've seen that areas like the British Isles, Low countries, France and Germany are these "arbitrary" regions. Aren't those pretty obvious and understandable boundaries? They don't really fit into what I'd see as arbitrary definitions.

( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary )
Arbitrary:
- not planned or chosen for a particular reason : not based on reason or evidence
- done without concern for what is fair or right

There are more issues similar to those mentioned to Freudia, bot in western and eatestern Europe and I guess all over the world:

what if Burgundy survived and grew strong? the "natural" Burgundian region overlaps both Germanies, Low countries and France and from Burgundian PoV (in 1444 or even 1475) those borders are indeed arbitrary
what if Iberian Wedding did not happen: Aragon's sphere of influence and interest includes area around Mediterranean, not Iberia, form Aragon's PoV Iberia is indeed artificial concept.
....

 

[Omegador]

States will be a terrible nerf to maritime nations like Venice, Genoa, Aragon, Netherlands, even Byzantium, etc.. since they tend to have ports all over to pull trade and such. Venetian Sea will be pretty hard to accomplish now.

Removing the limit, or at least allowing a soft-cap similar to forcelimits, dip relations, or army leaders but only with states would make more sense. If having 4-5 states would cost a bit more for a "sprinkled" maritime nation, it would be satisfactory.

 

[lightvsdarkness]

These changes sounds like they are not thought through. I think it won't be fun to play anymore.

 

[perhje]

Address the question. Should an OPM have that power over a large nation? Is it sensible and balanced that a tiny nation on your border can somehow corrupt your country?

Maybe not. It would be better to tie it to overextension.

 

[gronak]

They're based on 1821 boundaries and ignore the fact that regions could have developed differently throughout the time period. A prime example is how Silesia is in the North German region despite it being primarily Slavic and not Germanic in 1444.

I agree 100%

For example, if England and say Spain slit France in half and owned it for 400 years, changed the cultures and everything so it no longer has anything to do with France, why should this region still be known as France?

Same goes for Jutland (the Danish peninsula north of Germany), geographically it would make sense to just add it in to north Germany, but since it has been owned by Denmark for a long time and has Danish culture, it is in the Scandinavian region.

 

[perhje]

What's the point of this feature? Penalizing border states? I don't get it.

Have you seen the cost for keeping the low countries as England. 0.01 ducats per month. For the border states it seems more like the cost is more symbolic than an actual expense. What it does is that you as England can have an Indian colony at an expense, but if you feel that is the best investment because you will get more money than the money you invest you have the oppertunity to do that.

 

[Freudia]

Have you seen the cost for keeping the low countries as England. 0.01 ducats per month. For the border states it seems more like the cost is more symbolic than an actual expense. What it does is that you as England can have an Indian colony at an expense, but if you feel that is the best investment because you will get more money than the money you invest you have the oppertunity to do that.

It's .01 because the only province in the Low Countries England owns is Calais. Most of the high development land is north of Calais, up in Holland or Antwerpen.

 

[Red_warning]

Corruption seems like an awkward mechanic that doesn't add much value to the game. I get that the player needs challenges for the game to remain fun but an extra economic slider isn't it, and I imagine this is an attempt by the devs to give the game more depth, but it's not a very interactive mechanic and thus doesn't add much extra value to EU4 imo.

 

[zdlugasz]

Yeap, Calais only - it is 13 development. In France English costs are 5 times higher for 63 development (which is more or less 5 times more development).
Since they are right across channel, one could try to guess cost formula for neighbouring regions (which seems to me small in this case, but I suspect that it may increase with time as some other costs do).
But costs were never main complain against proposed States.

 

[perhje]

It's .01 because the only province in the Low Countries England owns is Calais. Most of the high development land is north of Calais, up in Holland or Antwerpen.

Still it wouldn't most likely tip much over 1.00 ducat per month since calais is more than 1/100 of the development in the low countries. And if you have whole low countries with less approximately 25% in autonomy you will be floating in money anyway.

 

[zdlugasz]

Corruption seems like an awkward mechanic that doesn't add much value to the game. I get that the player needs challenges for the game to remain fun but an extra economic slider isn't it, and I imagine this is an attempt by the devs to give the game more depth, but it's not a very interactive mechanic and thus doesn't add much extra value to EU4 imo.

Lets put it bluntly and straight as it can be: is NOT economic slider! it affects ALL POWER costs. It is mainly monarch point slider with economical side effect. Basically it is extra penalty over tech group, extra penalty for ideas, inflation reduction, stab costs etc. You had 250% tech penalty, now you may gave up to 500% tech cost penalty.


Silly thought: high corruption will block your tech COMPLETELY! Since you have cap on monarch points, equal more or less 150% (+50%) of amount required to tech cost, but tech may cost now +100%, which gives 200% cost!

So you are western tech and your max pool of monarch points is 999. But your techs cost 1200 points now !
It is not even negative feedback spiral, it is ultimate black hole death spiral. The moment you start lagging behind because you got crappy monarch from RNG or even your 3 monarchs in row had 0/1 DIP, the moment you wont be able to tech up at all starts looming on the horizon.

ULTIMATE DISASTER - corruption hole where you can not tech up at all.

I sincerely hope that @Johan reads this thread, will recognize sillness of this and will decouple monarch points from corruption.

 

[zdlugasz]

And to all hopers that neighbour bonus is consider only within same tech group.

While it is possible that Ottomans westernized, I doubt that Johan played about 300 years of game to show us that screenshot (and all borders by accident look historically). Nope, he simply loaded with different start date, which means that you get penalty for whatever neighbour you were unlucky to get.

- an OPM republic/theocracy with series of good rulers it teching ahead - sorry, you are monarchy and default regency council you will get is 1/1/0
- Europeans appeared in India or Indonesia - bad luck, westernize as fast as you can because blooming corruption will eat you
- and if you were hoping to get some Native American achievement just roll back to previous patch because even westernization does not guarantee that you will be able to tech up, unless Portugese plant their colony next to you before 1500

Edit:
so if you want to play monarchy or, God forbid, in RotW, you have to buy Wealth of Nations, Cossacs and maybe some other mandatory DLC and your first idea group must be Espionage.
(they even changed Studying technology espionage action, so it will give tech cost reduction, how thoughtful)

It also seems that this is ultimae response to the voices that RotW is westernizing too fast and too easy. Now Rotw will properly stagnate at some tech level.