• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

EU4 - Development Diary - 21st of May 2019

Hey folks, it's time for another EU4 dev diary! My name's Mike, and like my good colleague @Caligula Caesar I've been part of the EU4 Content Design team since December. We've been working on a solid chunk of Europe, and it's time to start showcasing some of this work. As @neondt has mentioned before, we've had a lot of suggestions and feedback from the community, and through further earnest exchanges we've refined the map further.

But, before we get to the end, let's talk about the process quickly, because I know that's what you truly crave.


image1_smol.png


This image is what was used to pitch the idea of what would end up becoming the revised province layout in northern Italy. As you'll see in a moment, it differs from what we ended up with in a couple of ways- Como was added later, along with a split in another North Italian province. Province 5 was originally conceived as a separate Aquileia province (since the country still exists as a releasable in Friuli, it was tempting to see what could be done with it) but that idea was eventually discarded in favor of a new Trieste province.


image2_smol.png


Southern Italy developed much closer to what the original draft envisioned. The southern half of the Italian Peninsula has only a few additions, Avellino being the one that probably sticks out the most. The island of Sicily received a bit more attention, with the island's three provinces turning into five instead. Its new divisions were guided a little bit more by game design priorities than historical divisions, as historical divisions like Sicily's real province of Trapani had sizes and shapes that would have really stuck out like a sore thumb in EU4.

Unlike the northern Italian proposal, the southern Italian one was nearly implemented as-is. The biggest difference is that “Agrigento” had its name changed to “Girgenti”, which seemed more accurate for the period. Conversely, several proposed name changes to pre-existing provinces were not implemented, as they just didn't seem necessary upon review.


“Show us the new map already!” I can hear you guys politely demanding. Fine, fine!


italy_whole.png


Three new countries were added to the map as independent states. In the far north is the Prince-Bishopric of Trent, an Austrian country in control of an Italian province. To the west lies Saluzzo, nervously wedged between Savoy and France. In Romagna, Bologna is now an independent republic coveted by its neighbors.

Alongside these three countries are a couple new potential revolters. Padua and Verona now have cores on their respective provinces and can break away from Venice if the stars align, and Spoleto now exists as a core in Spoleto province, in case the Papal State's control of Central Italy ever starts to fall apart.

If we zoom in a little, more details reveal themselves.


northern italy.png


As the conversation linked at the start of this post highlights, Como originally was not considered, but after some discussion it became apparent that the inclusion of it (or at least something north of Milan) was called for. Thus, Como's complete contours now complement the comprehensive composition of that corner.

The creation of a separate Bologna province also prompted a revision of the remnant of old Romagna province; the old province's capital is now Ravenna, and Ravenna was taken by Venice in 1440 or 1441, so Romagna now starts off under Venetian rather than Papal control, although the Papacy does retain its core on the province. I'm sure this is fine and will definitely not be a source of tension between the two countries.


southern italy.png


Southern Italy was implemented essentially as described above. Sardinia received some attention and now includes Arborea as its own province on the west side of the island, but other Sardinian giudicati were not included primarily for the sake of balance- Sassari province in northern Sardinia has only 3/3/2 development as it is, and splitting that in two would create provinces with as little development as an Uzbek province in the Steppes.

Aside from the obvious mapwork, there is one other thing we added to southern Italy:

two_sicilies.png



And there you have it! Next week, we'll be talking about missions.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I am sorry but is this a Joke?

Perugia does not exist?
Bologna is not a vassal of the Pope?

Then why Urbino exists and is a vassal of the Pope??

Since Urbino had the same relationship to the Pope as Perugia and Urbino, this choice is not motivated and by far one of the worst you could do for the Italian Peninsula.

Bologna a Republic? Well, even Wikipedia paints a more correct picture, so no excuses for this wrong choice.

And why make Spoleto a releasable nation? Why not insert Perugia too in the province right north? Perugia was still a vassal of the Pope, while Spoleto was a very old Duchy. So it made more sense to make Perugia releasable.

Why is Siena still a great circle with its capital near the sea while Siena itself is very much inland??

I sincerely hope that the Lazio-Campania state is no more, but since you have not mentioned it, I am out of hope.

But seriously, I want to know why you chose Bologna to be independent, Urbino to be a vassal and Perugia to not exist!

But even if I want to know your answers, I remember that you designed pirate nation to be better at administering land than Merchant Republics because reasons.
This gave me a thought, what about a new type of subject to let conflicts in Italy play out a bit more openly.
Let's call it Signora or whatever is more appropriate it would be a bit like a step between daimyo and tributary, in that it would pay homage to an overlord with income like vassal/daimyo, but would also conduct some of its affairs independently like tibutary. They would not be annexable right away, but the overlord could try to force them to become regular vassal like with a march (representing efforts to strengthen the central authority). It could be made so that it would be limited to Italy to establish this type of subject.
Bologna, Urbino and whatever state is appropriate would start as one.
Nice stuff. What's the focus of the next devdiary?
Missions.
 
Love the changes! A few suggestions/questions:

With the upcoming changes to Catholicism, perhaps the Vatican could be separated from Roma proper? This would allow you to take Rome itself for the CoT while not risking the Pope's wrath, and would reflect the ultimate agreement between the newly-formed Italy and the Papacy.

Any chance for a San Marino? Although small, they have been around since the Roman Empire.

With Sicily and Sardinia receiving more provinces, Corsica seems to stand out with its large size and one province. An additional province could be in order, and this would fill out the Sardinia-Corsica state to 5.

Further, if not already planned on, I would implore you to consider giving more repercussions to Rome being taken. Yes, it penalizes Catholic nations holding it, but outside of AE, a heathen taking Rome is less dramatic than a Catholic nation doing so. I imagine the seat of Catholicism being taken by a heathen or even heretic religion would cause quite a stir.
 
That was... underwhelming, to say the least. Germany overhaul was far, far superior and set a standard that makes this look quite aggressively meh by comparison. Considering the reception of Golden Century's iberia ''overhaul'', i espected a tad more to be added in the beating heart of the renaissance than a few tags with wrong government types; as others have mentioned here, the Bentivoglio family ruled Bologna as tyrants, and making them a republic makes absolutely no sense. I can see some gameplay reason for it not being a vassal being a factor i suppose, but it was a republic as much as it was zoroastrian, its a geniunly baffling thing. The papal vassals in the east being as integrated as Rome itself is also a bit of an eyebrow raiser. All in all, not up to standards set in other areas, imho.

Granted, so were the map changes in Spain. I guess Catholic countries are just fated to never get any love :oops:

They probably wont make the same mistake that on GC, so your opinions will be considered.

It feels exactly like golden century to me. For some reason, Mediterranean country gets very little, other areas get lots of stuff. I still cant wrap my head around how the main features had nothing to do with Spain at all.

The Spanish Community has far greater numbers. We are a little minority and we mean nothing to the sales revenues and so we mean nothing to the ones who could change things. I am doing my best to be heard but this will be not enough

Catholic countries and the religion itself have consistenty gotten the short end of the stick, i guess. Just look at South America compared to North America, or how Golden Century portrayed Iberia as supersticious backwater where the church could rule entire provinces and where entirep opulations were expelled to the new world; one of it's 'main features' is a british pratice, because PDS still treats colonization worldwide as it was done in the US for some reason. Or how the protestant religions get all the content, all the time. Spain caused a ruckus more than due to outrage in the spanish community, it was genuinly subpar pack that added little, and what was added wasnt very much worth it, in my view anyways.
 
That's a very nice development that we have here. But, even if i see a lot of new italian provinces here, i'm a little sad that Liguria will not have a new one. It was very important in those times and having a generic "Albenga" (that was no more important since ~1300s) for the "Ponente Ligure" is too easy for Genoa's Players.
 
When all of the world was at the same level Italy was fine. I could not expect much detail to be honest. But then EU4 started to become more and more detailed and I was very excited. When Art of War came, I remember being very happy about the changes in Italy. Then, I realized standards changed and Italy was not as it should be. Now it’s the last time Europe is gonna be touched upon, so we have no other chance. I raised my voice to make my points reach the developers so that they use this last chance is full. Italy is not at the same level of detail as the other parts of the world, and I am not taking about provinces. Screw provinces. I want a deeper representation of the various Italian states, their relationships, their struggles, their history. Not a mere “big bad boys now bigger and little boys now more”. Independent Bologna, inexistent Perugia and vassal Urbino are the emblem of this. Three vassals of the Pope have three different treatments. Spoleto as a releasable instead of Perugia is the cherry on this bad cake of Central Italy. Province names in Central Italy are also a problem.

I feel you. I dont know why do you consider Europe wont be reworked though (Eastern Europe, Scandinavia need much love), but yes, Italy wont have love before long. Though, you know that France and Netherlands were changed a bit in "Rule Britannia" and they will get some changes now.
I'm very afraid about what they will create with France as they promised much job on the vassals, and i hope that we will have the same standards as you, no better, no worse. Cause Italy and France need deep Rework - outside provinces.
What i mainly mean is dont lose hope, we'll have one or two more dev diary about Italy (and month of development before the release), they have to hear you.

But, I don’t know how, I am the only one trying to change the mistakes. I see lots of people who say “seems good to me” and “wow fantastic change” just because they do not know Italy so the devs will follow their praises and deliver a flawed version of Central Italy.
The dev follows what they want to follow. And yes, they will use opinion supporting them. Unfortunate.



Who says they won’t? I do not see a big change. We had empty dev diaries for months, and now we have less than ideal maps and premises for the new mechanics, whatever they are.

Agree, i maybe wont be so optimist in a few weeks
 
This gave me a thought, what about a new type of subject to let conflicts in Italy play out a bit more openly.
Let's call it Signora or whatever is more appropriate it would be a bit like a step between daimyo and tributary, in that it would pay homage to an overlord with income like vassal/daimyo, but would also conduct some of its affairs independently like tibutary. They would not be annexable right away, but the overlord could try to force them to become regular vassal like with a march (representing efforts to strengthen the central authority). It could be made so that it would be limited to Italy to establish this type of subject.
Bologna, Urbino and whatever state is appropriate would start as one.

I have extensively talked about Papal Vassals and Signoria in my detailed overhaul of Central Italy. I suggest you to read those parts and help me change this GC style portrayal of Italy.
 
I feel you. I dont know why do you consider Europe wont be reworked though (Eastern Europe, Scandinavia need much love), but yes, Italy wont have love before long. Though, you know that France and Netherlands were changed a bit in "Rule Britannia" and they will get some changes now.
I'm very afraid about what they will create with France as they promised much job on the vassals, and i hope that we will have the same standards as you, no better, no worse. Cause Italy and France need deep Rework - outside provinces.
What i mainly mean is dont lose hope, we'll have one or two more dev diary about Italy (and month of development before the release), they have to hear you.

EU4 is very old now. So it’s likely that this time will be the last time Italy gets a retouch.

The next event Diary will be about missions, and I will be there to spot any mistakes and inconsistencies. But no maps reworks on mission dev diaries so I have to act now.

I did not judge Germany’s map changes as I am no expert on the matter. I judge this, as I know that it’s not good. I also want answers, in order to know what the devs thought.
 
EU4 is very old now. So it’s likely that this time will be the last time Italy gets a retouch.

The next event Diary will be about missions, and I will be there to spot any mistakes and inconsistencies. But no maps reworks on mission dev diaries so I have to act now.

I did not judge Germany’s map changes as I am no expert on the matter. I judge this, as I know that it’s not good. I also want answers, in order to know what the devs thought.
They read every single post. If we are still waiting any kind of answer it might be cause they know they cannot satisfy your probably just requests. That's painful to realize. Because that was their motto on GC too. :/
 
@Ofaloaf please change the terrible province name of Terracina. If you guys want to be consistent (you rightly chose Girgenti instead of Agrigento) then you must change the name Terracina to:
• Marittima, with the capital in Latina (on the sea)
• Campagna, with the capital in Frosinone (where I believe you put the capital)

Terracina makes no sense whatsoever, ruins Immersion and feels like a joke to those who know Italy.
You claim to know Italy, yet you want to replace Terracina with cities that make infinitely less sense.
To start with, Frosinone was a small and unimportant town until it was made the capital of Campagna ( instead of Ferentino) in the 16th century, and even then it was quite smaller than cities like Alatri and Anagni until the 19th century.

Latina on the other hand wasn't even founded until the Fasicst rule in 1920's!

The most important cities in that province through the period were Velletri and Terracina, but Velletri was semi-independent and suffered a decline after 16th century, so I can see why Terracina was chosen ( what makes less sense is why the south of Lazio was split of instead of Viterbo or Ovieto to the north of Rome, but oh well)
 
Just weighing in on one of the changes, since I don't have enough knowledge to talk about the others.
Since you decided that Ravenna is the capital of Romagna, now the whole province belongs to Venice, while in reality it was split between Florence, Venice, Ferrara and the Pope, and the latter controlled the majority of the cities in the area.
Maybe you should revert the ownership of the province to the Pope and give Venice the core.
 
A little bit dissapointed this week tbh. This had the ability to be something great but it just feels lacking, no disrespect to any of the devs.

I just thought I'd throw a few maps here just incase you are looking to possibly change things based on the community.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508383629555269633/509450467261022229/179600VZ.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...mministrativa_del_Regno_delle_Due_Sicilie.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe.../800px-Karte-Entwicklung-Savoyen-bis-1789.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...696/800px-Grandi_Casate_Italiane_nel_1499.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...i_sardi_1.svg/800px-Giudicati_sardi_1.svg.png

Things I will suggest is a 4 province Sardinia and 2 province Corsica. I see no reason why not.
A Perugia province would be quite nice, as well as Massa.
A province for Aosta in northern Savoy
Either Noli or Finale near Genoa.
 
You claim to know Italy, yet you want to replace Terracina with cities that make infinitely less sense.
To start with, Frosinone was a small and unimportant town until it was made the capital of Campagna ( instead of Ferentino) in the 16th century, and even then it was quite smaller than cities like Alatri and Anagni until the 19th century.

Latina on the other hand wasn't even founded until the Fasicst rule in 1920's!

The most important cities in that province through the period were Velletri and Terracina, but Velletri was semi-independent and suffered a decline after 16th century, so I can see why Terracina was chosen ( what makes less sense is why the south of Lazio was split of instead of Viterbo or Ovieto to the north of Rome, but oh well)

The province of “Campagna and Marittima” was established first in the end of the XII Century, with Frosinone as its Capital.

It makes no sense to call a province as a city and make another’s city capital. It’s better to name the province as the administrative division and then place the capital.

Frosinone was the seat of the government of the province, so it should take the cake.

In my Suggestion about the Papal States, I used Campagna as the name and Frosinone as the Capital.

As for the Latina suggestion, I admit I wanted to make a Dev reply to the post, because I find Terracina not the ideal name for the province. Shame to me, I guess.